Is McLaren the modern day TVR?
Discussion
This may seem an odd question given that the two companies are very different in terms of the cars they have produced, the era in which most of their vehicles have been made, or their ability to stir the senses.
It would be fair to say that new TVR's had a proven record for breaking down and from what I know, that was in many ways was due to poor quality components and a limited budget with which to fully test new models before getting the customers to do the job for them. Fast forward 20 years and McLaren, a company that looks on itself as technology driven business, makes cars with outstanding looks and performance but in my view has used the same methodology as TVR e.g. poor quality components.
Why do I say this? I have an 18 plate 720 owned from new that's covered 3,500 miles. Last year it needed a complete set of accumulators (£1,747 charged by Rybrook Bristol), a known problem where the diaphragms in the original units were of poor quality and have now been replaced by a better version ....
The car has been in storage over the winter and covered less than 100 miles since it was serviced a few weeks before the accumulators had to be done. Went to use it last week and there was what looked like a small pool of oil inside the rear offside wheel. Got the car on a ramp, wheel off and the shock absorber is leaking probably from 2 separate areas.
With my limited mechanical knowledge I know that pressurised fluid flows from each shock absorber to the other with the accumulators as part of the set up. How then does a shock absorber fail after 3,500 of wear and tear? The most likely result will be a replacement and another circa £2k bill.
McLaren of course are not at all interested as the vehicle is out of warranty. Compare that to an R8 I owned years ago which started to spray oil over the engine but the car was out of warranty. Audi picked up a considerable bill to have it put right as they said that's shouldn't happen with one of their top brands.
It would be fair to say that new TVR's had a proven record for breaking down and from what I know, that was in many ways was due to poor quality components and a limited budget with which to fully test new models before getting the customers to do the job for them. Fast forward 20 years and McLaren, a company that looks on itself as technology driven business, makes cars with outstanding looks and performance but in my view has used the same methodology as TVR e.g. poor quality components.
Why do I say this? I have an 18 plate 720 owned from new that's covered 3,500 miles. Last year it needed a complete set of accumulators (£1,747 charged by Rybrook Bristol), a known problem where the diaphragms in the original units were of poor quality and have now been replaced by a better version ....
The car has been in storage over the winter and covered less than 100 miles since it was serviced a few weeks before the accumulators had to be done. Went to use it last week and there was what looked like a small pool of oil inside the rear offside wheel. Got the car on a ramp, wheel off and the shock absorber is leaking probably from 2 separate areas.
With my limited mechanical knowledge I know that pressurised fluid flows from each shock absorber to the other with the accumulators as part of the set up. How then does a shock absorber fail after 3,500 of wear and tear? The most likely result will be a replacement and another circa £2k bill.
McLaren of course are not at all interested as the vehicle is out of warranty. Compare that to an R8 I owned years ago which started to spray oil over the engine but the car was out of warranty. Audi picked up a considerable bill to have it put right as they said that's shouldn't happen with one of their top brands.
TBH I think McLaren is more the modern day Lotus.
For a relatively modern TVR-like sportscar you'd be looking at something like the Corvette C7 Stingray. V8 at the front and rear wheel drive.
I'd struggle to name many front engine V8 sportscars in current production. Certainly nothing equivalent to the classic TVRs, either wedge or Chim generations.
For a relatively modern TVR-like sportscar you'd be looking at something like the Corvette C7 Stingray. V8 at the front and rear wheel drive.
I'd struggle to name many front engine V8 sportscars in current production. Certainly nothing equivalent to the classic TVRs, either wedge or Chim generations.
TQ3 said:
I have an 18 plate 720 owned from new that's covered 3,500 miles.
I think this is part of your problem, doing under 600 miles a year. Cars don't age purely on mileage, and an older low-mileage car isn't the same as a newer one of the same mileage. Left standing, seals can harden and crack, and thus stop sealing - a certain amount and frequency of use actually preserves a car better. So the expectation that a car has only done X miles so parts shouldn't fail is unfortunately not always borne out.For comparison, I bought my 570GT last February and have put over 5,000 miles on it since (car has 23k in total).
Now you could absolutely say that if you buy a Toyota Corolla and don't drive it, it will probably still remain reliable and won't have leaky suspension.
There are two aspects here, one is that Toyota build millions of the cars so can ensure their cars and their components are extremely well-tested, and the other is that a Corolla doesn't have complex inter-linked suspension giving such a good ride/handling tradeoff. David Twohig in his book Inside the Machine gives a good explanation of the compromises involved in sourcing parts from suppliers and in quality testing the A110, being much lower volume than the Qashqai and Zoe he previously engineered.
I'm personally unsure how McLaren reliability compares to its true competition, Ferraris and Lambos, for quality and ability to stand up to disuse.
In terms of TVR, I can see some points of comparison; a relatively 'new' company, brawny V8 engines, dramatic styling and vibrant paint jobs, low-volume British handbuilt cars made from composite body panels and eschewing parts-bin interiors for custom designs, taking on the more established European competition by being lighter and more powerful for the same or less money.
On the other hand TVRs were dynamically compromised by chassis stiffness and re-purposed suspension components, whereas McLaren prioritise that with the carbon tub and bespoke suspension setups (although some components may be shared the overall geometry isn't compromised for them). McLaren engines have proven largely reliable so far, at least compared to TVR's home-grown efforts. McLaren being an F1 team also have an international high-end credibility which TVR did not.
Panamax said:
TBH I think McLaren is more the modern day Lotus.
This, the 12C was even developed by a bunch of ex-Lotus engineers.Cutting edge tech vs not.......im not sure there are any similarities between the two, except they are hand made.
A lot of well respected journos still define the 720s as the go to supercar and whilst the build quality can be questionable, as Sam says they seem far more relaible if they are used and the niggles ironed out. No car likes being sat, your barely getting it warmed up at that mileage, get out in out and have fun.
A lot of well respected journos still define the 720s as the go to supercar and whilst the build quality can be questionable, as Sam says they seem far more relaible if they are used and the niggles ironed out. No car likes being sat, your barely getting it warmed up at that mileage, get out in out and have fun.
12pack said:
I expect the OP is drawing the comparison on the basis of reliability and build quality rather than capability and design, which is essentially the same old story of low volume, bespoke products being hand-built using bespoke parts, with no large corporate infrastructural support.
That's a fair point. The thorough engineering that goes into certain well known, mass produced sports cars simply can't be matched by low volume builders. The stories you hear around, for instance, Koenigsegg are utterly terrifying in the wallet department. Equally, you look at cars like Ariel or KTM and see just how expensive it is to build a few bespoke parts of anything. It's why I always believed the more Toyota parts there were in a Lotus the better the car.
TQ3 said:
McLaren of course are not at all interested as the vehicle is out of warranty. Compare that to an R8 I owned years ago which started to spray oil over the engine but the car was out of warranty. Audi picked up a considerable bill to have it put right as they said that's shouldn't happen with one of their top brands.
I suppose one thing that might account for the difference between Audi and McLaren is that the R8 is the halo model of a massive, financially-strong company, which isn't the case for McLaren.One of my "things" is that cars (and other mechanical devices) like being used. My cars move at least once a week unless we're away on holiday. Keeps seals and things at work rather than having a quiet snooze behind the bike sheds.
Seems to me that people with "little used classics" tend to have exactly the same problems as people with "little used supercars".
Seems to me that people with "little used classics" tend to have exactly the same problems as people with "little used supercars".
Simple answer....nope.
Unfortunately, people generally post when they have issues with their McLaren, people who dont have one lap that up and regurgitate, and it's like folklore now that they are very unreliable.
Very few post to say how good their car has been.
For me, 2 macs, 6 years, and I don't even bother with having the warranty now, although I fully understand why people want a warranty on a mac when they initially buy one.
After ownership, there is a good chance you might decide that you will self warranty as generally, not much, if anything, goes wrong with them; certainly no more than its peers asking Ferrari, Lambo etc.
Unfortunately, people generally post when they have issues with their McLaren, people who dont have one lap that up and regurgitate, and it's like folklore now that they are very unreliable.
Very few post to say how good their car has been.
For me, 2 macs, 6 years, and I don't even bother with having the warranty now, although I fully understand why people want a warranty on a mac when they initially buy one.
After ownership, there is a good chance you might decide that you will self warranty as generally, not much, if anything, goes wrong with them; certainly no more than its peers asking Ferrari, Lambo etc.
Last week 14 x 675LT's met for 3 days in Wales covering an average of 1,000 miles each. Some cars travelled more coming from as far as the highlands of Scotland. At least 14,000 trouble free miles over 3 days without a single issue other than 1 puncture. One owners' Range Rover broke down on the way to his garage to pick up his 675LT and that caused the only delay.
We all experience reliability differently. Personally in 4 years and 13k miles in my 675LT I have not experienced an issue, neither have many other owners I know. When someone does have an issue With their McLaren it's broadcast everywhere and McLaren are condemned. Almost all of my car reliability issues have been with BMW & Ferrari. You don't find Ferrari owners airing their issues on public forums. I find it very odd that Brits beat up on a British manufacturer to such an extent.
The accumulators need replacing every 4 years (or so) and this can be undertaken cost effectively at 'V' engineering and upgraded to re-fillable accumulators so next time the gas permeates through the membrane they can be re-gassed just like AC at a similar cost. Compared to IMS/ bore scoring / cam deviations on Porsche its a very minor issue.
Shocks do need replacing more often on performance cars. My 430CUP needed a rebuild after 4 years. The less you use a car the more frequently any component could need replacing. Oil does not get to the gaskets and seals and they will dry out and allow oil to escape / misting. The more you drive your car the more reliable it will be. I make a point of driving mine at least every 2 weeks through the winter to make sure its all lubricated and nothing dries out.
We all experience reliability differently. Personally in 4 years and 13k miles in my 675LT I have not experienced an issue, neither have many other owners I know. When someone does have an issue With their McLaren it's broadcast everywhere and McLaren are condemned. Almost all of my car reliability issues have been with BMW & Ferrari. You don't find Ferrari owners airing their issues on public forums. I find it very odd that Brits beat up on a British manufacturer to such an extent.
The accumulators need replacing every 4 years (or so) and this can be undertaken cost effectively at 'V' engineering and upgraded to re-fillable accumulators so next time the gas permeates through the membrane they can be re-gassed just like AC at a similar cost. Compared to IMS/ bore scoring / cam deviations on Porsche its a very minor issue.
Shocks do need replacing more often on performance cars. My 430CUP needed a rebuild after 4 years. The less you use a car the more frequently any component could need replacing. Oil does not get to the gaskets and seals and they will dry out and allow oil to escape / misting. The more you drive your car the more reliable it will be. I make a point of driving mine at least every 2 weeks through the winter to make sure its all lubricated and nothing dries out.
2 years of McLaren ownership and over 4k miles of personal use, bonnet latch has needed replacing and a headlight bracket which v engineering 3d printed and charged £150 from memory but I can't think of anything else that has needed doing, car has been amazing, I do regularly start the car every 2 weeks to get up to temp during winter when its not being used. I dont think mclaren is any worse than its contemporaries other than how it protects its brand. Nobody says typical porsche reliabilty when the vast 992 issues happen, same with ferrari 296/sf90.
Bispal said:
The accumulators need replacing every 4 years (or so) and this can be undertaken cost effectively at 'V' engineering and upgraded to re-fillable accumulators so next time the gas permeates through the membrane they can be re-gassed just like AC at a similar cost. Compared to IMS/ bore scoring / cam deviations on Porsche its a very minor issue.
My 650s is 7 years and 14 k miles old now, and hasn’t had the accumulators replaced. Have had the extended warranty (all it was used for was front cracked springs) but thinking of self-warranting now. Any thoughts on what I should do about the accumulators while still under warranty? 12pack said:
Bispal said:
The accumulators need replacing every 4 years (or so) and this can be undertaken cost effectively at 'V' engineering and upgraded to re-fillable accumulators so next time the gas permeates through the membrane they can be re-gassed just like AC at a similar cost. Compared to IMS/ bore scoring / cam deviations on Porsche its a very minor issue.
My 650s is 7 years and 14 k miles old now, and hasn’t had the accumulators replaced. Have had the extended warranty (all it was used for was front cracked springs) but thinking of self-warranting now. Any thoughts on what I should do about the accumulators while still under warranty? Main dealer will probably be more than happy to replace them under warranty for you and get paid to do so by the warranty company.
Many 650 / 675LT owners now self warranty as those cars are turning out to be quite reliable.
I think as others have commented, the OP is drawing the comparison on build quality and the often resultant reliability, but in my mind there is also the general ownership proposition too.
In my early "car" days I had 3 TVRs, a bomb proof and perfectly reliably Chimaera and then two extremely unreliable Cerberas - which I generated a real "love - hate" relationship with, when they went, they were just great cars and when they didn't which was a fairly regular occurance I got truly wound up by them.
Having gone through several Italian and german cars since, I have also owned two Mac 720s, the first was awful for build and reliability and the second, although a lot better still had frustrating issues and although I'm back in an Italian car these days, I really do hanker after another Mac, though I'm not convinced my OCD would allow me to own one.
So yes, I agree with the OP, whilst the two marques have their engines at different ends and TVR were certainly not famed for their handling, they have both engendered similar feelings for me and nothing I have owned from other manufacturers before or since have created quite such feelings of admiration and frustration in equal measure.
In my early "car" days I had 3 TVRs, a bomb proof and perfectly reliably Chimaera and then two extremely unreliable Cerberas - which I generated a real "love - hate" relationship with, when they went, they were just great cars and when they didn't which was a fairly regular occurance I got truly wound up by them.
Having gone through several Italian and german cars since, I have also owned two Mac 720s, the first was awful for build and reliability and the second, although a lot better still had frustrating issues and although I'm back in an Italian car these days, I really do hanker after another Mac, though I'm not convinced my OCD would allow me to own one.
So yes, I agree with the OP, whilst the two marques have their engines at different ends and TVR were certainly not famed for their handling, they have both engendered similar feelings for me and nothing I have owned from other manufacturers before or since have created quite such feelings of admiration and frustration in equal measure.
Bispal said:
Do you notice any difference between the 3 handling modes? If not your accumulators probably need replacing. It is a gradual loss of gas so difficult to notice unless you go in someone else's car and think 'blimey that's smooth'.
Main dealer will probably be more than happy to replace them under warranty for you and get paid to do so by the warranty company.
Many 650 / 675LT owners now self warranty as those cars are turning out to be quite reliable.
Yes still a very big difference. Will try to get the dealer to replace before the McL extended warranty runs out.Main dealer will probably be more than happy to replace them under warranty for you and get paid to do so by the warranty company.
Many 650 / 675LT owners now self warranty as those cars are turning out to be quite reliable.
MMarkM said:
Well sorry to hear of your woes! Hope everything gets resolved and you get more miles on her!
That's the paradox isn't it - you spend all your time working your nuts off to be in a position to buy cars like this and then you probably never have time to drive them.The cars don't like sitting around OP - take a few days off and blast up to Scotland or down to Europe or whatever. What a waste having such a special car and leaving it sat around.
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