So who's getting an i3?
Discussion
Right - on the configurator 
I've not specced a new BMW properly before. Do I need enhanced bluetooth for standard phone connection and making simple calls?
I'm going with Pro Media so in terms of music it's got 20 gig which is fine (I don't need to stream music from BT) - I just want to make sure I can make/recieve calls over BT using the cars controls.
Other than that, DC charge and HK is about all I need (bearing in mind the options bump the lease price).
I've not specced a new BMW properly before. Do I need enhanced bluetooth for standard phone connection and making simple calls?
I'm going with Pro Media so in terms of music it's got 20 gig which is fine (I don't need to stream music from BT) - I just want to make sure I can make/recieve calls over BT using the cars controls.
Other than that, DC charge and HK is about all I need (bearing in mind the options bump the lease price).
Just confirmed the deal on ours. We're getting a BEV, originally registered late Dec 2013. I think the original owner was a manager at BMW Switzerland. Silver, basic cloth interior but with all the options I'd like apart from the HK.
We worked out that the total cost of ownership on this for the daily driving was less than that of doing those km in our 13 years old Subaru Forester. We're keeping the Subaru for long trips & times when we need the AWD but effectively having the i3 + Subaru will likely cost less than just the Subaru given the fuel cost savings & one less service a year.
Two weeks ago we were all set on getting a Model S as an only car but I went & drove an i3, did the sums and the rest is history.
We worked out that the total cost of ownership on this for the daily driving was less than that of doing those km in our 13 years old Subaru Forester. We're keeping the Subaru for long trips & times when we need the AWD but effectively having the i3 + Subaru will likely cost less than just the Subaru given the fuel cost savings & one less service a year.
Two weeks ago we were all set on getting a Model S as an only car but I went & drove an i3, did the sums and the rest is history.
They treat the battery differently so you should have the same capacity throughout its life. I think it works out that you only access (I'm making these figures up) the battery in the 20%-80% range so what you see as 100% is actually 80%. As battery capacity deteriorates then it might drop down to 90% of original capacity but you're still using 80% of the original capacity. Therefore, your '100%' is always 100%. I guess that allows them to control your perception of the technology.
I may have that all wrong, but that's my understanding
I may have that all wrong, but that's my understanding
teabelly said:
I've just checked the warranty pdf and BMW say 70%. Once it falls below that then they'll do something. Again poor I think.
The battery is modular and cells can be changed quickly if necessary. I expect in time non-OEM replacements will be available as per the Nissan Leaf to keep the cost down. My observation is that battery capacity in EV's is holding up much better than expected.My understanding is that BMW never give you access to the full capacity of the battery. Going to 100% or 0% is one of the factors that decreases a battery's lifespan so effectively they're keeping users away from these ranges. Tesla does the same by settings to charge to 80% unless absolutely needed.
I think the reason why BMW / Renault (and Tesla) have almost identical warranties is because they don't expect many users, even in extreme cases (multiple fast charges a day / very hot climates) will hit that level within 8 years. They'll all be using the same experimental data on battery decline in extreme conditions.
I'm fully expecting either the manufacturers or one of the big battery companies to supply improved batteries as the technology improves, a bit like Tesla is doing with its Roadster. Of course even a 70% battery hasn't reached its end of life - it could easily be reconditioned into something a lot less critical, for example grid storage. Car manufacturers make a lot of profit from service / support so they want to have as large a stock of cars on the road as possible. Having a reputation for supporting old cars increases the value of new ones via lower depreciation.
At the moment upgrading a car's battery wouldn't make sense but when a car is 5 years or more then it may well do. With the current 7% improvement a year in battery that would mean 40% improvement after 5 years. With electric cars I suspect the market will end up focussing on the battery condition rather than miles as the determiner of value.
I think the reason why BMW / Renault (and Tesla) have almost identical warranties is because they don't expect many users, even in extreme cases (multiple fast charges a day / very hot climates) will hit that level within 8 years. They'll all be using the same experimental data on battery decline in extreme conditions.
I'm fully expecting either the manufacturers or one of the big battery companies to supply improved batteries as the technology improves, a bit like Tesla is doing with its Roadster. Of course even a 70% battery hasn't reached its end of life - it could easily be reconditioned into something a lot less critical, for example grid storage. Car manufacturers make a lot of profit from service / support so they want to have as large a stock of cars on the road as possible. Having a reputation for supporting old cars increases the value of new ones via lower depreciation.
At the moment upgrading a car's battery wouldn't make sense but when a car is 5 years or more then it may well do. With the current 7% improvement a year in battery that would mean 40% improvement after 5 years. With electric cars I suspect the market will end up focussing on the battery condition rather than miles as the determiner of value.
But once the capacity has been lost to make you need to keep charging to a higher percentage to keep the advertised range then battery degradation will speed up. Or you have to lose range to keep the degradation level static.
Are there many i3s about with 1000 charge cycles on completely original batteries to prove things one way or another?
Are there many i3s about with 1000 charge cycles on completely original batteries to prove things one way or another?
You do lose range / capacity and from what I can see the process is relatively linear. 8 years seems to have been used in the accelerated aging tests as that's seen as the lifetime of a vehicle. I personally think this is low but I'm running a car I bought new in 2003 and it's certainly nowhere near at the end of its life.
Of course nobody has done such testing in a real car but it's quite possible to simulate the effects in a laboratory. The initial studies were done in a hot climate, partly because we know that will effect the range most. However this research from French academics suggests that this doesn't match the use most users will see and it's quite possible that some will see 20 year usable lifespan.
What we can see from the research is that the drop off is gradual and therefore predictable. We also know the technology is evolving quickly. I'm much more comfortable with this than something with the risk of a sudden failure. However I'm not sure it's a good idea to get an EV if you need to use its full range every day.
Of course nobody has done such testing in a real car but it's quite possible to simulate the effects in a laboratory. The initial studies were done in a hot climate, partly because we know that will effect the range most. However this research from French academics suggests that this doesn't match the use most users will see and it's quite possible that some will see 20 year usable lifespan.
What we can see from the research is that the drop off is gradual and therefore predictable. We also know the technology is evolving quickly. I'm much more comfortable with this than something with the risk of a sudden failure. However I'm not sure it's a good idea to get an EV if you need to use its full range every day.
What's the general deal with these chargeyourcar charge points? From what I can tell, the one in Aztec West Bristol charges a fiver an hour? So - I'd have to get a CYC card for £20 then keep it topped up with credit? And basically be charged a fiver a day to charge up 60 miles worth of range? Is that right?
I'd kind of assumed (before doing my research admittedly) that all charge points would be the same - ie free. That level of pricing makes it the same price as petrol effectively - which kind of removes most of the USP for me.
More research to do into this EV business!!
I'd kind of assumed (before doing my research admittedly) that all charge points would be the same - ie free. That level of pricing makes it the same price as petrol effectively - which kind of removes most of the USP for me.
More research to do into this EV business!!
hornetrider said:
What's the general deal with these chargeyourcar charge points? From what I can tell, the one in Aztec West Bristol charges a fiver an hour? So - I'd have to get a CYC card for £20 then keep it topped up with credit? And basically be charged a fiver a day to charge up 60 miles worth of range? Is that right?
I'd kind of assumed (before doing my research admittedly) that all charge points would be the same - ie free. That level of pricing makes it the same price as petrol effectively - which kind of removes most of the USP for me.
More research to do into this EV business!!
With a high speed charger you need to do something to discourage people from parking there for long periods.I'd kind of assumed (before doing my research admittedly) that all charge points would be the same - ie free. That level of pricing makes it the same price as petrol effectively - which kind of removes most of the USP for me.
More research to do into this EV business!!
herewego said:
With a high speed charger you need to do something to discourage people from parking there for long periods.
Limit the swipe of a card to one a day and only dispenses an hour of charge? ANPR camera covering the space? Ecotricity is free, right? Can't be rocket science can it?Just seems a bit disappointing, from an 'outsiders' perspective. If I want to make the massive lifestyle switch to an EV and the extra inconvenience of daily charging, limited range etc, it would be nice to be incentivised by having somewhere to top it up for nowt.
hornetrider said:
Just seems a bit disappointing, from an 'outsiders' perspective. If I want to make the massive lifestyle switch to an EV and the extra inconvenience of daily charging, limited range etc, it would be nice to be incentivised by having somewhere to top it up for nowt.
There are pros and cons. For an i3, if your daily commute is less than 70 miles, you can charge at home. Each morning waking up to a full range and a pre-conditioned vehicle. If you need to go further, then the REX is available as a safety net. If you need to travel hundreds of miles frequently without hassle, then only a Tesla will do!!EV motoring is far more than just free charge points! I.e. (quiet, fast acceleration, cheap running costs, fun to drive)
hornetrider said:
herewego said:
With a high speed charger you need to do something to discourage people from parking there for long periods.
Limit the swipe of a card to one a day and only dispenses an hour of charge? ANPR camera covering the space? Ecotricity is free, right? Can't be rocket science can it?Just seems a bit disappointing, from an 'outsiders' perspective. If I want to make the massive lifestyle switch to an EV and the extra inconvenience of daily charging, limited range etc, it would be nice to be incentivised by having somewhere to top it up for nowt.
Yeah to be fair I think I am just outside the optimum envelope for the technology at the moment, with a 100 mile a day requirement. I wouldn't want to be using the REx on a regular basis - I'd see this as a get you home emergency feature rather than every day use feature. If my company had a charge point then it would be a no brainer. But a fiver a day to top up at work takes away a lot of the appeal.
However it looks like the updated i3 (LCI?) with 50% more range will fit my needs better. I may have to be pragmatic and wait until then, which is annoying as I liked the car.
On the plus side I thought the car was excellent. Really nice inside, refined etc so I'm not averse to the tech, which was a nice discovery. I certainly prefer it to diesel as a method of propelling a car.
However it looks like the updated i3 (LCI?) with 50% more range will fit my needs better. I may have to be pragmatic and wait until then, which is annoying as I liked the car.
On the plus side I thought the car was excellent. Really nice inside, refined etc so I'm not averse to the tech, which was a nice discovery. I certainly prefer it to diesel as a method of propelling a car.
I don't if views of this thread are also following the "Best Lease Deal" thread. Anyway, here's a recent i3 deal which some members may be eligible for:
http://www.easternwesternfleetservices.co.uk/busin...
9+23
6k/yr
£185+VAT
http://www.easternwesternfleetservices.co.uk/busin...
9+23
6k/yr
£185+VAT
Hornet you are probably right that you are just outside ideal range for the i3.wait for next version as you say, or new leaf could make the whole commute.
But if you like it and deal is good then go for it. Charging for a fiver is probably no more than diesel. Ok p. No better, but the other half of your commute will be cheaper. Plus you have flexibility as you can use Rex sometimes or presumably stop at magor sometimes for a splash and dash and get a coffee that then effectively pays for itself.
As per my previous post, driving my brothers i3 really was a revelation and I completely get why you would want it over a diesel. Even if it is the same cost as a diesel, I strongly suspect my next car will be an ev
But if you like it and deal is good then go for it. Charging for a fiver is probably no more than diesel. Ok p. No better, but the other half of your commute will be cheaper. Plus you have flexibility as you can use Rex sometimes or presumably stop at magor sometimes for a splash and dash and get a coffee that then effectively pays for itself.
As per my previous post, driving my brothers i3 really was a revelation and I completely get why you would want it over a diesel. Even if it is the same cost as a diesel, I strongly suspect my next car will be an ev
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