Discussion
Just got back from our Italian Lakes trip and having done 2343 miles we used 532 litres of gas at an average of 62.3 pence per litre (this includes the rip-off swiss motorway service areas at 95 Euro cents per litre).
The average fuel consumption on gas was 20.19 mpg for a fully loaded Caddy 3.6 v6 and I was certainly not hanging about cruising at 85 to 90 mph in France, slightly less in Switzerland and just under the ton in Italy. This also included a few mountain passes which seem to drain the tank for very little distance covered.
I reckon that over the 532 litres of fuel we used we saved about £330 by using LPG rather than petrol....... a very useful saving when a Gondola in Venice is 80 Euros for a half an hour paddle through stagnant water.
One tip I would pass on is that LPG or GPL as its known "over there" can be a bit scarce away from big towns in Italy and, unlike any other European country, has to be served by an attendant which means there's no LPG whatsoever on on self service sites.
This in turn means that it is very difficult to get any on Sundays unless you are travelling on the motorway network, as most small sites go to operating self service note and credit card machines on Sundays.
Cheers,
Tony
The average fuel consumption on gas was 20.19 mpg for a fully loaded Caddy 3.6 v6 and I was certainly not hanging about cruising at 85 to 90 mph in France, slightly less in Switzerland and just under the ton in Italy. This also included a few mountain passes which seem to drain the tank for very little distance covered.
I reckon that over the 532 litres of fuel we used we saved about £330 by using LPG rather than petrol....... a very useful saving when a Gondola in Venice is 80 Euros for a half an hour paddle through stagnant water.
One tip I would pass on is that LPG or GPL as its known "over there" can be a bit scarce away from big towns in Italy and, unlike any other European country, has to be served by an attendant which means there's no LPG whatsoever on on self service sites.
This in turn means that it is very difficult to get any on Sundays unless you are travelling on the motorway network, as most small sites go to operating self service note and credit card machines on Sundays.
Cheers,
Tony
I'm loving this thread 
I've converted my 4 litre V8 TVR Chimaera and am now enjoying the cost equivalent of 45mpg, with the help of an innovative engine management system and some skillful mapping I'm also making more power on LPG than petrol which was all proven on the rolling road.
I'm also consistently seeing a like for like direct economy loss of 15%, the chemistry of LPG dedicates this due its lower calorific than petrol (by volume).
Most well set up conversions out there will experience a 20% drop in economy, 15% is considered to be the holy grail in the LPG conversion industry so I'm extremely happy with the efficiency of my Canems system.
Obviously the inevitable economy loss is more than offset by the difference in cost per litre at the pump, but to me the efficiency of any LPG conversion should simply be measured in two ways.
1. Power loss
2. Economy loss
My objective was to create a "no compromise" conversion that retains all the TVR character and performance without the wallet punishing fuel costs.
I designed the tank installation so there was no loss of boot space and to give a 14 gallon fill, this provides a touring range of 315 miles on LPG. On top of that I have an auxiliary petrol tank for an additional 150 miles should I need it, making the car a very practical true dual fuel hybrid.
The heart of the conversion is the clever Canems dual fuel engine management system that completely replaces the old Lucas injection system & ancient distributor ignition TVR Chimaeras & Griffiths were burdened with.
The Canems system actually houses the peak & hold LPG injector drivers inside the ECU along with the saturated petrol injector drivers, so unlike every other LPG conversion everything is inside the one ECU.
This means both fuels are mappable using the same software and controlled through the same processor.
There is no additional external piggyback ECU twisting existing petrol injector durations in an attempt to get things right for LPG, eliminating the previously unavoidable compromise of going LPG.
You run the car on petrol on map one, then flick to map two for LPG, each map is totally unique and allows the car to be properly mapped for each fuel including unique ignition maps so I can extract all the benefit from the lovely high octane 110 Ron propane.
The car looks completely standard from the outside but remains pure TVR on the inside, read about the conversion here:
http://www.pistonheads.com/Gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
I wanted to prove propane is not just for taxis and old 4x4s, and to create a conversion with absolutely none of the traditional LPG compromises.
Fuel range, boot space and performance are all either the same or better than a standard petrol TVR Chimaera, and visually you'd never know the car runs on LPG.
I've just swapped an average of 23mpg on petrol for the average cost equivalent of 40mpg, with 45mpg easily achievable on a run.
What's not to like?
I've converted my 4 litre V8 TVR Chimaera and am now enjoying the cost equivalent of 45mpg, with the help of an innovative engine management system and some skillful mapping I'm also making more power on LPG than petrol which was all proven on the rolling road.
I'm also consistently seeing a like for like direct economy loss of 15%, the chemistry of LPG dedicates this due its lower calorific than petrol (by volume).
Most well set up conversions out there will experience a 20% drop in economy, 15% is considered to be the holy grail in the LPG conversion industry so I'm extremely happy with the efficiency of my Canems system.
Obviously the inevitable economy loss is more than offset by the difference in cost per litre at the pump, but to me the efficiency of any LPG conversion should simply be measured in two ways.
1. Power loss
2. Economy loss
My objective was to create a "no compromise" conversion that retains all the TVR character and performance without the wallet punishing fuel costs.
I designed the tank installation so there was no loss of boot space and to give a 14 gallon fill, this provides a touring range of 315 miles on LPG. On top of that I have an auxiliary petrol tank for an additional 150 miles should I need it, making the car a very practical true dual fuel hybrid.
The heart of the conversion is the clever Canems dual fuel engine management system that completely replaces the old Lucas injection system & ancient distributor ignition TVR Chimaeras & Griffiths were burdened with.
The Canems system actually houses the peak & hold LPG injector drivers inside the ECU along with the saturated petrol injector drivers, so unlike every other LPG conversion everything is inside the one ECU.
This means both fuels are mappable using the same software and controlled through the same processor.
There is no additional external piggyback ECU twisting existing petrol injector durations in an attempt to get things right for LPG, eliminating the previously unavoidable compromise of going LPG.
You run the car on petrol on map one, then flick to map two for LPG, each map is totally unique and allows the car to be properly mapped for each fuel including unique ignition maps so I can extract all the benefit from the lovely high octane 110 Ron propane.
The car looks completely standard from the outside but remains pure TVR on the inside, read about the conversion here:
http://www.pistonheads.com/Gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
I wanted to prove propane is not just for taxis and old 4x4s, and to create a conversion with absolutely none of the traditional LPG compromises.
Fuel range, boot space and performance are all either the same or better than a standard petrol TVR Chimaera, and visually you'd never know the car runs on LPG.
I've just swapped an average of 23mpg on petrol for the average cost equivalent of 40mpg, with 45mpg easily achievable on a run.
What's not to like?
andrewrob said:
Thanks for sharing, that sounds incredible!
Cheers.The conversion has added some weight but the TVR is an exceptionally light car in the first place, on a half fill of gas & carrying 2.5 gallons of petrol my dual fuel Chimaera still only weighs 1103kg
On the performance side a typical healthy petrol 4.0 litre Chimaera will make around 220hp, on the rolling road my car is making 253hp on gas giving it a power to weight ratio of 230hp per tonn which is comparable with an Aston Martin Vantage V8.
I've seen a genuine sat nav confirmed 153mph and various phone apps consistently show a 0-60 time of (or just under) 5 seconds, all this on £0.68p a litre LPG.
Then pop it into 5th and sit on the motorway at a steady 80pmh for a cost equivalent of 45 mpg.
The next step is to fit Rotrex supercharger which will immediately add another 100hp at a modest 8psi of boost, this will raise the power to weight ratio to 320hp per tonn which is comparable with a Ferrari 430.
The Rotrex centrifugal superchargers have a very low parasitic effect on the engine so the efficiency is excellent, and with the volumetric efficiency of the engine improved by forced induction we actually expect to see an improvement in fuel economy under light load cruising conditions.
My target is to match the performance of a Ferrari 430 while delivering cost equivalent of 50 mpg at a steady 80mph cruise.
To do this I need to be consuming LPG at a true 26 mpg at that steady 80mph, the challenge is I'm trying to do all this with the very antiquated Rover V8 engine design.
But on paper my next targets are all very achievable.
Watch this space
SILICONEKID345HP said:
Are there any vehicles available with LPG from new ? If you have the conversion it is a`lot cleaner,dos this reduce the VED and allow you to not pay the congestion charge ?
Volvo did some dual-fuel cars at the turn of the century; I don't know about other manufacturers.If your vehicle has been professionally converted and certified, then you can send the cert to DVLA who will change it's fuel type on the V5 to 'dual' and apply a £10 discount off the standard rate of VED.
There was an exemption from the Congestion Charge, but Ken Livingstone scrapped it when he brought in the 'Western Extension' to the zone.
Mr Taxpayer said:
SILICONEKID345HP said:
Are there any vehicles available with LPG from new ? If you have the conversion it is a`lot cleaner,dos this reduce the VED and allow you to not pay the congestion charge ?
Volvo did some dual-fuel cars at the turn of the century; I don't know about other manufacturers.If your vehicle has been professionally converted and certified, then you can send the cert to DVLA who will change it's fuel type on the V5 to 'dual' and apply a £10 discount off the standard rate of VED.
There was an exemption from the Congestion Charge, but Ken Livingstone scrapped it when he brought in the 'Western Extension' to the zone.
Omaruk said:
Are the connectors in Europe the same as the UK?
No there are two main types aside from the UK ones http://www.autogasshop.co.uk/autogas-lpg-euro-x28d...
http://www.autogasshop.co.uk/flush-filler-to-1-34-...
Top one is used in France and Italy, bottom one is used in Belgium, and I think Luxembourg
There are others for some other countries but these are the only ones I've been to with mine
Mr Taxpayer said:
Volvo did some dual-fuel cars at the turn of the century; I don't know about other manufacturers.
If your vehicle has been professionally converted and certified, then you can send the cert to DVLA who will change it's fuel type on the V5 to 'dual' and apply a £10 discount off the standard rate of VED.
There was an exemption from the Congestion Charge, but Ken Livingstone scrapped it when he brought in the 'Western Extension' to the zone.
They are quick enough to throw very high VED at you when you buy something other than the norm ! £10 discount is a pIf your vehicle has been professionally converted and certified, then you can send the cert to DVLA who will change it's fuel type on the V5 to 'dual' and apply a £10 discount off the standard rate of VED.
There was an exemption from the Congestion Charge, but Ken Livingstone scrapped it when he brought in the 'Western Extension' to the zone.
s take . You can lower the emissions by over 50 % with LPG .The Aston Martin v12 produces C02 343 grams per Kilometer, Is around £500 a year and 120 grams is only £30 .
That only double so why the massive increase .
If an LPG produces at least 20% less co2 and even more with tired engines. why are they only offering £10 discount ? .
Edited by SILICONEKID345HP on Tuesday 23 September 21:45
SILICONEKID345HP said:
Mr Taxpayer said:
Volvo did some dual-fuel cars at the turn of the century; I don't know about other manufacturers.
If your vehicle has been professionally converted and certified, then you can send the cert to DVLA who will change it's fuel type on the V5 to 'dual' and apply a £10 discount off the standard rate of VED.
There was an exemption from the Congestion Charge, but Ken Livingstone scrapped it when he brought in the 'Western Extension' to the zone.
They are quick enough to throw very high VED at you when you buy something other than the norm ! £10 discount is a pIf your vehicle has been professionally converted and certified, then you can send the cert to DVLA who will change it's fuel type on the V5 to 'dual' and apply a £10 discount off the standard rate of VED.
There was an exemption from the Congestion Charge, but Ken Livingstone scrapped it when he brought in the 'Western Extension' to the zone.
s take . You can lower the emissions by over 50 % with LPG .The Aston Martin v12 produces C02 343 grams per Kilometer, Is around £500 a year and 120 grams is only £30 .
That only double so why the massive increase .
If an LPG produces at least 20% less co2 and even more with tired engines. why are they only offering £10 discount ? .
Edited by SILICONEKID345HP on Tuesday 23 September 21:45
Personally I'd love to upgrade to Legacy Spec B, LPG convert it and have economical family fun, but £500 pa is kinda off-putting. It doesn't matter how many times you tell them that LPG is the only IC engine fuel suitable (i.e. clean enough) for use indoors, viz many forklift trucks in warehouses. The same fuel you burn in your kitchen to cook your dinner is the same fuel we burn in our cars; nobody cooks on petrol or diesel.
SILICONEKID345HP said:
Are there any vehicles available with LPG from new ? If you have the conversion it is a`lot cleaner,dos this reduce the VED and allow you to not pay the congestion charge ?
The only one I can think of in the UK is a Proton Gen2 Ecologic http://proton.co.uk/ecologic/
Challo said:
Are there any petrol engines which cannot be converted or known to have issues?
Yes. Mainly due to issues around premature valve seat wear even if flashlube is used or electrical oddities. The installers should have access to that information but a Google can also find some - e.g.http://www.motor-talk.de/forum/aktion/Attachment.h...
Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 25th September 22:26
charltjr said:
Challo said:
Are there any petrol engines which cannot be converted or known to have issues?
Yes. Mainly due to issues around premature valve seat wear even if flashlube is used or electrical oddities. The installers should have access to that information but a Google can also find some - e.g.http://www.motor-talk.de/forum/aktion/Attachment.h...
Edited by charltjr on Thursday 25th September 22:26
Bonefish Blues said:
Challo said:
Thanks. Tempted by a Murano but reported by a customer to have the excessive valve seat wear.
OTOH I spoke to a very long-standing converter about the Murano this week and his view is that with a suitable valve-saver system it was a very successful conversion.Gassing Station | EV and Alternative Fuels | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff