Insight, Prius or Diesel
Discussion
Just investigating potential replacements for the wife's car. The qualifying criteria for the car is that "it must have a good quality 'feel' about it, not too embarrassing to look at and be available with <50k miles for about £9k".
Interested in looking at Prius and Insight models but her current leanings are towards a Volvo V50 1.6 DRIVe, as it appears to tick many of the boxes and has none of the concerns over electrickery and batteries. I've said that a Zoe or Leaf would be suffice but she struggles with remembering to put a mobile phone on charge, so sadly full electric cars are not 100% wifeproof, a hybrid seems to be a viable option though.
Her routine journey profile is the school run (6 miles round trip twice a day, medium traffic), general domestic use of about 20 miles a day on A roads/Motorways followed by town centres, with the usual garden centre/bike rides/shopping trips at the weekends. A supermini probably won't be big enough for all given circumstances.
The wife has generally driven German/Swedish and isn't enthusiatic of any offerings from Ford/VX/French - I've tried to reason with this as this is writing off a large chunk of candidates.
Any thoughts on whether the economical diesel is the most viable?
Will the hybrids be cheaper to run (given the profile above)?
Your comments/opinions would be appreciated.
Interested in looking at Prius and Insight models but her current leanings are towards a Volvo V50 1.6 DRIVe, as it appears to tick many of the boxes and has none of the concerns over electrickery and batteries. I've said that a Zoe or Leaf would be suffice but she struggles with remembering to put a mobile phone on charge, so sadly full electric cars are not 100% wifeproof, a hybrid seems to be a viable option though.
Her routine journey profile is the school run (6 miles round trip twice a day, medium traffic), general domestic use of about 20 miles a day on A roads/Motorways followed by town centres, with the usual garden centre/bike rides/shopping trips at the weekends. A supermini probably won't be big enough for all given circumstances.
The wife has generally driven German/Swedish and isn't enthusiatic of any offerings from Ford/VX/French - I've tried to reason with this as this is writing off a large chunk of candidates.
Any thoughts on whether the economical diesel is the most viable?
Will the hybrids be cheaper to run (given the profile above)?
Your comments/opinions would be appreciated.
With that kind of usage I would be far more concerned with a diesel than with 'electrickery and batteries' in a hybrid. I would go with a Toyota hybrid but Insights are very good value at the moment. Both of them might suffer in the badge snobbery stakes though and it sounds like this is quite important here.
Somehow see if you can 'engineer' a test drive in an EV, that should help sell it as it's usually much better than you think. Smooth to drive, quiet, no gears. With that sort of daily mileage an EV would be a good solution (and you can get a 2nd hand LEAF within your budget). Running costs are much lower than the other suggestions.
Plugging in isn't much of a chore and even if she occasionally forgets it wouldn't really matter, she could get 3 days out of a full charge.
Plugging in isn't much of a chore and even if she occasionally forgets it wouldn't really matter, she could get 3 days out of a full charge.
I use a prius for work, a gen 3 (non plug in). I have a very similar journey profile. 23 miles to the main office and there are a few short journeys too.
On a route less than 3 miles it's unlikely to get much more than 50mpg. It's only after about 5 or 6 miles it will go north.
My main journey does genuinely get me +70mpg and higher. I have had a few tanks netting over 70mpg average over 550miles but realistically I'm currently getting 65-71mpg over the tank due to the short journeys.
At higher speeds on the motorway it gets about 60-65mpg. I think in most peoples hands on average journeys you should get 60mpg + and the shorter journeys should suit battery power more.
My wife has an Eco diesel toyota rav4 from work. It should get 57mpg and despite my best efforts it won't average higher than 43mpg.
I'm sold on ev and hybrid for certain duties and personally think the plug in hybrid is a great concept. I just think it costs far too much ATM. I buy second hand at 3-4 years old
On a route less than 3 miles it's unlikely to get much more than 50mpg. It's only after about 5 or 6 miles it will go north.
My main journey does genuinely get me +70mpg and higher. I have had a few tanks netting over 70mpg average over 550miles but realistically I'm currently getting 65-71mpg over the tank due to the short journeys.
At higher speeds on the motorway it gets about 60-65mpg. I think in most peoples hands on average journeys you should get 60mpg + and the shorter journeys should suit battery power more.
My wife has an Eco diesel toyota rav4 from work. It should get 57mpg and despite my best efforts it won't average higher than 43mpg.
I'm sold on ev and hybrid for certain duties and personally think the plug in hybrid is a great concept. I just think it costs far too much ATM. I buy second hand at 3-4 years old
OneTwo said:
Just investigating potential replacements for the wife's car. The qualifying criteria for the car is that "it must have a good quality 'feel' about it, not too embarrassing to look at and be available with <50k miles for about £9k".
Interested in looking at Prius and Insight models but her current leanings are towards a Volvo V50 1.6 DRIVe, as it appears to tick many of the boxes and has none of the concerns over electrickery and batteries. I've said that a Zoe or Leaf would be suffice but she struggles with remembering to put a mobile phone on charge, so sadly full electric cars are not 100% wifeproof, a hybrid seems to be a viable option though.
Her routine journey profile is the school run (6 miles round trip twice a day, medium traffic), general domestic use of about 20 miles a day on A roads/Motorways followed by town centres, with the usual garden centre/bike rides/shopping trips at the weekends. A supermini probably won't be big enough for all given circumstances.
The wife has generally driven German/Swedish and isn't enthusiatic of any offerings from Ford/VX/French - I've tried to reason with this as this is writing off a large chunk of candidates.
Any thoughts on whether the economical diesel is the most viable?
Will the hybrids be cheaper to run (given the profile above)?
Your comments/opinions would be appreciated.
The 1.6 diesel in the Volvo is a Peugeot / Citroen engine - and a horrible one at that. Known for big failures.Interested in looking at Prius and Insight models but her current leanings are towards a Volvo V50 1.6 DRIVe, as it appears to tick many of the boxes and has none of the concerns over electrickery and batteries. I've said that a Zoe or Leaf would be suffice but she struggles with remembering to put a mobile phone on charge, so sadly full electric cars are not 100% wifeproof, a hybrid seems to be a viable option though.
Her routine journey profile is the school run (6 miles round trip twice a day, medium traffic), general domestic use of about 20 miles a day on A roads/Motorways followed by town centres, with the usual garden centre/bike rides/shopping trips at the weekends. A supermini probably won't be big enough for all given circumstances.
The wife has generally driven German/Swedish and isn't enthusiatic of any offerings from Ford/VX/French - I've tried to reason with this as this is writing off a large chunk of candidates.
Any thoughts on whether the economical diesel is the most viable?
Will the hybrids be cheaper to run (given the profile above)?
Your comments/opinions would be appreciated.
daemon said:
The 1.6 diesel in the Volvo is a Peugeot / Citroen engine - and a horrible one at that. Known for big failures.
The HDi 110 lump? Never heard of an issue with that - my father's C4 has done over 200k miles faultlessly, for instance.A lot of people I know have the same engine, no reported problems?
HereBeMonsters said:
We went for an Insight over a Prius, still think it was by far the better choice.
Interested in why? I've just googled the Insight and you can't run it electric only, and it has a lower MPG figure than the Prius. Is it due to secondhand value e.g. newer car, lower mileage for your money?tony wright said:
HereBeMonsters said:
We went for an Insight over a Prius, still think it was by far the better choice.
Interested in why? I've just googled the Insight and you can't run it electric only, and it has a lower MPG figure than the Prius. Is it due to secondhand value e.g. newer car, lower mileage for your money?I've driven a few Priuses (?) as work and hire cars, and while eminently competent, they were a "white good" of motoring. And I don't say that lightly. I'm a driver who can find the soul in my Grandad's Corolla T-Sport, so I'm not looking for a balls-out race car experience.
The Prius was the right car for the sector ten years ago. Sure, it can run in electric-only mode, but for how long? Meh.
The Insight Gen2 is a far better choice in my opinion - for one, yes, it's cheaper - more options available at the price point, mainly due to lack of awareness of the model, not bad reviews. Everyone knows what a Prius is. Not everyone has heard of the Insight.
Secondly, the way the hybrid motor works with the petrol engine. OK, it doesn't run on electric only for a decent amount of time, but with the CVT 'box it can run in idle for a long time, charging the battery while the electric motor takes care of the acceleration. When you join the motorway, both run together to give you a decent boost that will punt you up to motorway speeds quickly and safely.
Third, and most importantly, the way the CVT gearbox works. In "normal" mode, it is so smooth as to be unoticeable. It doesn't change gears, it eases around the rev range until you're cruising at 1500 rpm doing 70mpg. But even in "normal" you can flick the left paddle, and engage engine braking. This doesn't disengage until you accelerate again. Put it into Sport, and it gives you 7 ratios that you can flick up and down, and it DOES it. No fannying around, it changes gear. Want to hustle it down a B road, tucking the nose in with a gearchange on entering the corner? You can do that. Want to change down in anticipation of an overtake? You can do that. I have no doubt that with a bit of added lightness and some sticky rubber, this could hold its own on a trackday.
Fourth - it has decent suspension. Sure, it's not a Civic Type-R, but it's stiff on springs and compliant on dampers. Exactly what I want - you might want a slightly more wobbly ride, but I like a compliant, but firm feel. That is exactly what the Insight is.
Basically, it seems like someone at Honda accidentally built a petrolhead's hybrid. I have to admit I sold my Elise and bought this. I was going to spend the leftover getting my 205 GTI restored, but I've not felt the need. Love it.
HereBeMonsters said:
daemon said:
The 1.6 diesel in the Volvo is a Peugeot / Citroen engine - and a horrible one at that. Known for big failures.
The HDi 110 lump? Never heard of an issue with that - my father's C4 has done over 200k miles faultlessly, for instance.A lot of people I know have the same engine, no reported problems?
http://www.hyperchips.co.uk/blog/how-to-prevent-co...
http://www.ebay.co.uk/gds/Peugeot-Citroen-1-6-HDI-...
http://www.hagansautos.co.uk/peugeotturborepairs.h...
Earlier cars also suffered from oil ways blocking, so even if you replaced the turbo with a brand new one it would go again in several months.
http://www.peugeotcentral.co.uk/ftopic-12549.html
Also known for problems with DPFs and EGR valves on the earlier cars. Also the earlier ECUs didnt seem terribly capable of producing useful error codes.
Very common for problems. Surprised you hadnt heard.
Edited by daemon on Sunday 12th October 10:01
Edited by daemon on Sunday 12th October 10:03
I owned a Gen2 Insight and now own a Prius. I've driven both extensively. I agree with many of the points made by HereBeMonsters. IMHO the Gen2 Insight is a great car even before cost comes into the equation.
The Insight is more of a driver's car than the Prius. You sit lower, surrounded by a load of gauges and LED displays. You get a rev counter. The steering is more responsive. It's relatively light, with a low centre of gravity and instant torque from the electric motor. It's not the last word in handling but you feel connected to the car. It's surprisingly good fun to chuck around. The driving experience feels simpler and more old-school, which I found ironic for a car that is meant to be the future not the past.
The Prius is undoubtedly cleverer. The Prius has no conventional gearbox; the Insight uses a conventional CVT. The Prius can run in pure EV mode and accelerate on electric power only; the Insight basically can't. In the Prius all the accessories are electric so the engine doesn't have to kick in to run the air con; the Insight uses a conventional accessory belt so it needs to run the engine. As a result the Prius is way more economical, but in order to get the extra economy it has to disconnect you from the driving experience somewhat.
Unfortunately the market didn't care about that. The early versions were criticised for poor NVH and economy and by the time Honda fixed it all it was too late. In the UK the Prius outsold the Insight 10:1 and the Insight has now been discontinued
Gen2 Insights are quite uncommon and facelift versions even more so.
"Petrolhead's hybrid" is a good way to put it. IMHO the CR-Z had the potential to be something really special.
I would consider a facelift version (2012 on I believe). I reckon you would get one for 9K.
The Insight is more of a driver's car than the Prius. You sit lower, surrounded by a load of gauges and LED displays. You get a rev counter. The steering is more responsive. It's relatively light, with a low centre of gravity and instant torque from the electric motor. It's not the last word in handling but you feel connected to the car. It's surprisingly good fun to chuck around. The driving experience feels simpler and more old-school, which I found ironic for a car that is meant to be the future not the past.
The Prius is undoubtedly cleverer. The Prius has no conventional gearbox; the Insight uses a conventional CVT. The Prius can run in pure EV mode and accelerate on electric power only; the Insight basically can't. In the Prius all the accessories are electric so the engine doesn't have to kick in to run the air con; the Insight uses a conventional accessory belt so it needs to run the engine. As a result the Prius is way more economical, but in order to get the extra economy it has to disconnect you from the driving experience somewhat.
Unfortunately the market didn't care about that. The early versions were criticised for poor NVH and economy and by the time Honda fixed it all it was too late. In the UK the Prius outsold the Insight 10:1 and the Insight has now been discontinued
Gen2 Insights are quite uncommon and facelift versions even more so."Petrolhead's hybrid" is a good way to put it. IMHO the CR-Z had the potential to be something really special.
I would consider a facelift version (2012 on I believe). I reckon you would get one for 9K.
The Insight certainly handles better than the Prius, very chuckable. I still think they should have put the powertrain (inc. manual box) from the CRZ in it but the market for a warm hybrid didn't really exist at that point and it would have sold in even more miniscule quantities.
On most other points the Prius has it comprehensively beaten - refinement, performance, economy, space, mechanical simplicity
On most other points the Prius has it comprehensively beaten - refinement, performance, economy, space, mechanical simplicity
HereBeMonsters said:
It's just a far, far better car.
I've driven a few Priuses (?) as work and hire cars, and while eminently competent, they were a "white good" of motoring. And I don't say that lightly. I'm a driver who can find the soul in my Grandad's Corolla T-Sport, so I'm not looking for a balls-out race car experience.
The Prius was the right car for the sector ten years ago. Sure, it can run in electric-only mode, but for how long? Meh.
The Insight Gen2 is a far better choice in my opinion - for one, yes, it's cheaper - more options available at the price point, mainly due to lack of awareness of the model, not bad reviews. Everyone knows what a Prius is. Not everyone has heard of the Insight.
Secondly, the way the hybrid motor works with the petrol engine. OK, it doesn't run on electric only for a decent amount of time, but with the CVT 'box it can run in idle for a long time, charging the battery while the electric motor takes care of the acceleration. When you join the motorway, both run together to give you a decent boost that will punt you up to motorway speeds quickly and safely.
Third, and most importantly, the way the CVT gearbox works. In "normal" mode, it is so smooth as to be unoticeable. It doesn't change gears, it eases around the rev range until you're cruising at 1500 rpm doing 70mpg. But even in "normal" you can flick the left paddle, and engage engine braking. This doesn't disengage until you accelerate again. Put it into Sport, and it gives you 7 ratios that you can flick up and down, and it DOES it. No fannying around, it changes gear. Want to hustle it down a B road, tucking the nose in with a gearchange on entering the corner? You can do that. Want to change down in anticipation of an overtake? You can do that. I have no doubt that with a bit of added lightness and some sticky rubber, this could hold its own on a trackday.
Fourth - it has decent suspension. Sure, it's not a Civic Type-R, but it's stiff on springs and compliant on dampers. Exactly what I want - you might want a slightly more wobbly ride, but I like a compliant, but firm feel. That is exactly what the Insight is.
Basically, it seems like someone at Honda accidentally built a petrolhead's hybrid. I have to admit I sold my Elise and bought this. I was going to spend the leftover getting my 205 GTI restored, but I've not felt the need. Love it.
Surely when you factor in the rate of depreciation of the Elise in comparison to the Insight the Insight will cost you more money in the long term?I've driven a few Priuses (?) as work and hire cars, and while eminently competent, they were a "white good" of motoring. And I don't say that lightly. I'm a driver who can find the soul in my Grandad's Corolla T-Sport, so I'm not looking for a balls-out race car experience.
The Prius was the right car for the sector ten years ago. Sure, it can run in electric-only mode, but for how long? Meh.
The Insight Gen2 is a far better choice in my opinion - for one, yes, it's cheaper - more options available at the price point, mainly due to lack of awareness of the model, not bad reviews. Everyone knows what a Prius is. Not everyone has heard of the Insight.
Secondly, the way the hybrid motor works with the petrol engine. OK, it doesn't run on electric only for a decent amount of time, but with the CVT 'box it can run in idle for a long time, charging the battery while the electric motor takes care of the acceleration. When you join the motorway, both run together to give you a decent boost that will punt you up to motorway speeds quickly and safely.
Third, and most importantly, the way the CVT gearbox works. In "normal" mode, it is so smooth as to be unoticeable. It doesn't change gears, it eases around the rev range until you're cruising at 1500 rpm doing 70mpg. But even in "normal" you can flick the left paddle, and engage engine braking. This doesn't disengage until you accelerate again. Put it into Sport, and it gives you 7 ratios that you can flick up and down, and it DOES it. No fannying around, it changes gear. Want to hustle it down a B road, tucking the nose in with a gearchange on entering the corner? You can do that. Want to change down in anticipation of an overtake? You can do that. I have no doubt that with a bit of added lightness and some sticky rubber, this could hold its own on a trackday.
Fourth - it has decent suspension. Sure, it's not a Civic Type-R, but it's stiff on springs and compliant on dampers. Exactly what I want - you might want a slightly more wobbly ride, but I like a compliant, but firm feel. That is exactly what the Insight is.
Basically, it seems like someone at Honda accidentally built a petrolhead's hybrid. I have to admit I sold my Elise and bought this. I was going to spend the leftover getting my 205 GTI restored, but I've not felt the need. Love it.
We have been running a Prius+ seven seater for around 18 months now, not a petrolhead's car by any means, drones a bit at higher motorway speeds but wife loves it and gives no problems.
I recently tried an Toyota Auris hybrid Estate (Sports)- car felt much better screwed together, higher quality interior finish and although I think it has the same drivetrain as the Prius, the Auris felt much more responsive and better to drive.
If it were a seven seater I would buy one without hesitation.
I recently tried an Toyota Auris hybrid Estate (Sports)- car felt much better screwed together, higher quality interior finish and although I think it has the same drivetrain as the Prius, the Auris felt much more responsive and better to drive.
If it were a seven seater I would buy one without hesitation.
I have the Prius 7-seater as well.
I honestly cannot think of anything I could replace it with. Comfortable, quick enough, great drivetrain, different from the mainstream, very cheap to run and totally reliable. When I try other cars they feel old-fashioned by comparison.
There is a facelift coming out soon which is meant to have improved ride, a quieter cabin and better perceived quality in the cabin.
I honestly cannot think of anything I could replace it with. Comfortable, quick enough, great drivetrain, different from the mainstream, very cheap to run and totally reliable. When I try other cars they feel old-fashioned by comparison.
There is a facelift coming out soon which is meant to have improved ride, a quieter cabin and better perceived quality in the cabin.
We ended up buying a Honda Civic Tourer diesel...
Our budget crept up to 15k as we looked around. The hybrids failed to draw enough support in the end and Volvo V60s were the initial favourite due to previous brand allegiances, but the Honda just seemed to be the better car across all competencies (and generally 2 to 3 years newer for the same price). A test drive sealed the deal and we're more than happy with the performance/tech/economy/space the car offers. Free road tax was an unexpected bonus and high 60s mpg so far.
Thanks for the advice above.
Our budget crept up to 15k as we looked around. The hybrids failed to draw enough support in the end and Volvo V60s were the initial favourite due to previous brand allegiances, but the Honda just seemed to be the better car across all competencies (and generally 2 to 3 years newer for the same price). A test drive sealed the deal and we're more than happy with the performance/tech/economy/space the car offers. Free road tax was an unexpected bonus and high 60s mpg so far.
Thanks for the advice above.
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