Leaf or Zoe

[FiF]

BigBen said:

amstrange1 said:

DSLiverpool said:

it has heated seats that uses no power as it comes from the vehicle battery not the traction battery

Where do you think the 12V battery gets its energy from?

I was going to ask the same however I guess it means that the range won't be reduced by using the vehicle battery which can be recharged at the same time as the traction battery.

But surely they will be powered in the same way as lights and wipers etc. So if use of those reduces range then surely it follows that heated seats will do the same.

[BigBen]

FiF said:

BigBen said:

amstrange1 said:

DSLiverpool said:

it has heated seats that uses no power as it comes from the vehicle battery not the traction battery

Where do you think the 12V battery gets its energy from?

I was going to ask the same however I guess it means that the range won't be reduced by using the vehicle battery which can be recharged at the same time as the traction battery.

But surely they will be powered in the same way as lights and wipers etc. So if use of those reduces range then surely it follows that heated seats will do the same.

I agree, was just trying to think of a way for the DS's comment to make sense.

[IN51GHT]

The 12v gets it's power from the dc-dc convertor, anything that runs from 12v ultimately reduces range, so the seat heating thing is a fallacy

[DSLiverpool]

BigBen said:

FiF said:

BigBen said:

amstrange1 said:

DSLiverpool said:

it has heated seats that uses no power as it comes from the vehicle battery not the traction battery

Where do you think the 12V battery gets its energy from?

I was going to ask the same however I guess it means that the range won't be reduced by using the vehicle battery which can be recharged at the same time as the traction battery.

But surely they will be powered in the same way as lights and wipers etc. So if use of those reduces range then surely it follows that heated seats will do the same.

I agree, was just trying to think of a way for the DS's comment to make sense.

Anything from the "car" battery (seats and fan etc) does not reduce range - the car battery does not suck power from the traction battery.

[stargazer30]

DSLiverpool said:

Anything from the "car" battery (seats and fan etc) does not reduce range - the car battery does not suck power from the traction battery.

Eh? Where does the battery get its power from then, fairy dust? On the Zoe I can tell you it does for sure get charged from the main traction battery.

[DSLiverpool]

When you were a kid and you had a dynamo that was rotated by the wheel - energy into electricity the Zoe has a momentum based charger - a dynamo that is fed from the vehicle moving hence it doesn't worsen the range using the "car" battery

[smn159]

Surely that means that more effort is needed to move the car and so the traction battery has to work harder? Having said that, having the air con on doesn't seem to affect the range so I guess that you're right.

Does remind me of this though

[amstrange1]

IN51GHT said:

The 12v gets it's power from the dc-dc convertor, anything that runs from 12v ultimately reduces range, so the seat heating thing is a fallacy

Exactly my point.

[PKLD]

I thought my solar panel on the spoiler acted as a trickle charger for the 12v one (and helps to power the fans on a hot day to circulate air)?

[IN51GHT]

DSLiverpool said:

When you were a kid and you had a dynamo that was rotated by the wheel - energy into electricity the Zoe has a momentum based charger - a dynamo that is fed from the vehicle moving hence it doesn't worsen the range using the "car" battery

Oh dear.

It was Einstein who said "Energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can only be changed from one form to another". So even if the Zoe were charged from a dynamo system, the energy to run that dynamo must come from somewhere. i.e. the fwd movement of the car, so therefore less of the available energy would be going into fwd motion or regenerative braking charging the traction battery, it's basic physics from primary school.

Edited by IN51GHT on Wednesday 1st July 07:25

[amstrange1]

PKLD said:

I thought my solar panel on the spoiler acted as a trickle charger for the 12v one (and helps to power the fans on a hot day to circulate air)?

The panel is about 5W, so a very slow trickle of 400mA or so.

[FiF]

IN51GHT said:

DSLiverpool said:

When you were a kid and you had a dynamo that was rotated by the wheel - energy into electricity the Zoe has a momentum based charger - a dynamo that is fed from the vehicle moving hence it doesn't worsen the range using the "car" battery

Oh dear.

It was Einstein who said "Energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can only be changed from one form to another". So even if the Zoe were charged from a dynamo system, the energy to run that dynamo must come from somewhere. i.e. the fwd movement of the car, so therefore less of the available energy would be going into fwd motion or regenerative braking charging the traction battery, it's basic physics from primary school.

Edited by IN51GHT on Wednesday 1st July 07:25

That's my thoughts too. Even if there were a separate charging system for the vehicle battery, it would be possible like on my FL2 and a lot of other ICE vehicles to arrange things so that the alternator ramped up when the vehicle was on overrun. Even so that's not enough to keep the battery charged AND it's extra complication and weight to do something when you already have a system doing exactly that for the traction battery AND the energy still has to come from somewhere.

Off topic but for ages I puzzled about something I'd read about U-boat ops in WW2. When trying to save fuel they'd run on one engine. But so they weren't dragging the other prop through the water, they'd connect the electric motor on the first drive shaft as a generator directly to to the electric motor on the second drive shaft and drive that with the second engine clutch out. It confused me for s while that this would increase fuel consumption on the first engine and the efficiency of converting that energy to electric energy and back to mechanical energy was not as efficient as the transmission of a direct drive engine to propellor shaft. Of course when you compare out the efficiency of the second engine if it were running with the electric transfer then it adds up, but you need to remove the drag of another prop etc to make the figures add up.

[IN51GHT]

FiF said:

IN51GHT said:

DSLiverpool said:

When you were a kid and you had a dynamo that was rotated by the wheel - energy into electricity the Zoe has a momentum based charger - a dynamo that is fed from the vehicle moving hence it doesn't worsen the range using the "car" battery

Oh dear.

It was Einstein who said "Energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can only be changed from one form to another". So even if the Zoe were charged from a dynamo system, the energy to run that dynamo must come from somewhere. i.e. the fwd movement of the car, so therefore less of the available energy would be going into fwd motion or regenerative braking charging the traction battery, it's basic physics from primary school.

Edited by IN51GHT on Wednesday 1st July 07:25

That's my thoughts too. Even if there were a separate charging system for the vehicle battery, it would be possible like on my FL2 and a lot of other ICE vehicles to arrange things so that the alternator ramped up when the vehicle was on overrun. Even so that's not enough to keep the battery charged AND it's extra complication and weight to do something when you already have a system doing exactly that for the traction battery AND the energy still has to come from somewhere.

Off topic but for ages I puzzled about something I'd read about U-boat ops in WW2. When trying to save fuel they'd run on one engine. But so they weren't dragging the other prop through the water, they'd connect the electric motor on the first drive shaft as a generator directly to to the electric motor on the second drive shaft and drive that with the second engine clutch out. It confused me for s while that this would increase fuel consumption on the first engine and the efficiency of converting that energy to electric energy and back to mechanical energy was not as efficient as the transmission of a direct drive engine to propellor shaft. Of course when you compare out the efficiency of the second engine if it were running with the electric transfer then it adds up, but you need to remove the drag of another prop etc to make the figures add up.

I'm guessing that by allowing the prop to rotate rather than locking it the drag is reduced.

[FiF]

IN51GHT said:

FiF said:

IN51GHT said:

DSLiverpool said:

When you were a kid and you had a dynamo that was rotated by the wheel - energy into electricity the Zoe has a momentum based charger - a dynamo that is fed from the vehicle moving hence it doesn't worsen the range using the "car" battery

Oh dear.

It was Einstein who said "Energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can only be changed from one form to another". So even if the Zoe were charged from a dynamo system, the energy to run that dynamo must come from somewhere. i.e. the fwd movement of the car, so therefore less of the available energy would be going into fwd motion or regenerative braking charging the traction battery, it's basic physics from primary school.

Edited by IN51GHT on Wednesday 1st July 07:25

That's my thoughts too. Even if there were a separate charging system for the vehicle battery, it would be possible like on my FL2 and a lot of other ICE vehicles to arrange things so that the alternator ramped up when the vehicle was on overrun. Even so that's not enough to keep the battery charged AND it's extra complication and weight to do something when you already have a system doing exactly that for the traction battery AND the energy still has to come from somewhere.

Off topic but for ages I puzzled about something I'd read about U-boat ops in WW2. When trying to save fuel they'd run on one engine. But so they weren't dragging the other prop through the water, they'd connect the electric motor on the first drive shaft as a generator directly to to the electric motor on the second drive shaft and drive that with the second engine clutch out. It confused me for s while that this would increase fuel consumption on the first engine and the efficiency of converting that energy to electric energy and back to mechanical energy was not as efficient as the transmission of a direct drive engine to propellor shaft. Of course when you compare out the efficiency of the second engine if it were running with the electric transfer then it adds up, but you need to remove the drag of another prop etc to make the figures add up.

I'm guessing that by allowing the prop to rotate rather than locking it the drag is reduced.

Yes but what they did was drive both props equally aiui. Initially it seemed wrong but the sums do work out. Plus the drive was equal so less drag from rudder keeping a straight course etc etc.

[BigBen]

DSLiverpool said:

When you were a kid and you had a dynamo that was rotated by the wheel - energy into electricity the Zoe has a momentum based charger - a dynamo that is fed from the vehicle moving hence it doesn't worsen the range using the "car" battery

Ever notice how it was slightly harder to pedal when the dynamo was engaged, or how on small cars the engine idle speed drops if you put the headlights on?

[stargazer30]

DSLiverpool said:

When you were a kid and you had a dynamo that was rotated by the wheel - energy into electricity the Zoe has a momentum based charger - a dynamo that is fed from the vehicle moving hence it doesn't worsen the range using the "car" battery

You get nothing for nothing. If the Zoe has an alternator, the more current drain on it (ie using heaters, lights etc..) will make it harder to turn and require more power from the primary motor to overcome this. Main traction battery provides this extra current. So yes it would still reduce the range, not by much though. Its peanuts compared to the energy needed to move a 1.5ton car.

[budfox]

ooo000ooo said:

Guys came out yesterday to install my charging point, they discovered that my house does not have any earth bonding

The blokes who fitted my free charging point sorted out the earth bonding at my house, and fixed a faulty light in the garage. Bunged them a few quid for their efforts and everyone was very happy.

[FiF]

http://myrenaultzoe.com/index.php/topic/the-12-vol...

[amstrange1]

amstrange1 said:

PKLD said:

I thought my solar panel on the spoiler acted as a trickle charger for the 12v one (and helps to power the fans on a hot day to circulate air)?

The panel is about 5W, so a very slow trickle of 400mA or so.

To put this in context, I was playing with a Leaf yesterday and according to its diagnostics the auxiliary or 'hotel' loads on the LV system were 300W. That was with the car in a ready-to-drive state with the AC on - but no radio or lights (other than DRLs). Whilst the car's off the LV system power consumption should be mW, so the solar panel would stick some energy back in - but you'd need a pretty large capacity 12V batt to support 300W of hotel loads with only a 5W PV panel to top it back up.

I noted the AC was using 750-800W too, so clearly will have an impact on range - but potentially not a massive one dependant on your drivecycle.