Model S 90D - high mileage, range, depreciation & other bits

[aporschefan]

I'm considering buying a Tesla Model S 90D and need clarity in a few areas. It will be my car and not a company car.

My weekly work journeys are as follows:

Journey 1: London to Birmingham - Approx 240 mile return journey.
Journey 2: London to Evesham - Approx 250 mile return journey.
Journey 3: London to Newbury - Approx 140 mile return journey.
Journey 4: London to Leicester - Approx 200 mile return journey.

Total = 830 miles/wk.

For clarity, I do return home after each day so am able to charge the battery overnight.

The 90D claims to have a 330 mile range. I would opt for the +6% range upgrade = 350 mile (claimed) range in total. The salesman mentioned the real world figure for is closer to 270 miles. Adding 6% to that means I should expect 286 miles per full charge. (That said, thinking about it now, I'm not sure if he meant 270 miles including the upgrade. Will ask him for clarification.) Most of my miles are on the motorways at approx 70(ish)mph. Is it safe to assume a 286 mile range assuming normal motorway driving for most of the miles? Or would it be less?

If I have to stop to charge her up again, it wouldn't be a problem. I've looked at the supercharger options and there are supercharges on the M1 (Northampton) and M40 (Oxford) so in an emergency, I would be able to stop and charge the car without going out of my way or having to reroute my journey. Obviously it would be better if I could simply charge the battery every night at home and not have to stop at services, hence the above query about range. (The Journey to Newbury isn't a concern.)

This would be my first EV so I'm unsure of the rules regarding claiming mileage. Presumably it is the same as petrol/diesel cars?

I've also read passengers travelling with you (if work related travel) can also be claimed for at 5p/mile. Is this true? Presumably one would simply charge 50p/mile for the relevant journeys or are there specific forms to fill in for this?

Assuming approx 40k miles/yr, would it be better to sell/return the car after 2 years or 3 years. At 2 years, it will have 80k miles and potentially be a bargain for someone and as it's under 100k miles, it'll be easier to move on than a 3 year old car with 120k miles. Your thoughts? (I haven't decided if I will buy or lease the care yet.)

How do people find the rear seats? They looked pretty flat. Are the comfortable for journeys up to 1 hr? (I won't be using them but the family would so just curious.)

If anyone else here does high miles in a Tesla, please let me know how you find it.

Thanks in advance for any replies...

[johnnyreggae]

aporschefan said:

This would be my first EV so I'm unsure of the rules regarding claiming mileage. Presumably it is the same as petrol/diesel cars?

No: my recollection is there was zero allowance for EV but it was updated this autumn http://evfleetworld.co.uk/news/2015/Sep/HMRC-clari...

[anonymous-user]

Tesla rep told me the real world range for a 90 was about 250 miles so perhaps the 270 is with the upgrade?

However, with those miles it would still seem an expensive way to travel, wouldn't the train be easier and cheaper?

EVS of any type seem best suited to regular short (ish) commutes rather than high mileage, but you know your routine better than I do.

[aporschefan]

REALIST123 said:

Tesla rep told me the real world range for a 90 was about 250 miles so perhaps the 270 is with the upgrade?

However, with those miles it would still seem an expensive way to travel, wouldn't the train be easier and cheaper?

EVS of any type seem best suited to regular short (ish) commutes rather than high mileage, but you know your routine better than I do.

Appreciate your points but then I prefer travelling by car.

Would be good to hear feedback from others with a 90D regarding real world mileage from their motorway journeys.

[aporschefan]

johnnyreggae said:

No: my recollection is there was zero allowance for EV but it was updated this autumn http://evfleetworld.co.uk/news/2015/Sep/HMRC-clari...

The link quotes...

"But, she told delegates Approved Mileage Allowance Payments (AMAP) used to reimburse business mileage clocked up by employees in their own vehicle applied to any car or van and were not fuel dependent."

I will own the car personally. It will not be a company car. So when using the car for business mileage, the above applies to me. Hence I would be able to claim @ 45p/mile. Or am I reading this missing something?

[smn159]

No experience of a 90D but have been commuting regularly in a Zoe for a year now and find that the range varies significantly between summer and winter. In summer I get around 100 miles but in winter, with lights and heating on, it's closer to 70 - 75.

[ORD]

EVs all return lower mileage at high speed, don't they? 70ish would count as a high speed for these purposes. Doubt you would reliably get to Bham and back.

[Fastdruid]

aporschefan said:

I will own the car personally. It will not be a company car. So when using the car for business mileage, the above applies to me. Hence I would be able to claim @ 45p/mile. Or am I reading this missing something?

Correct however they are only advisory rates. Your company does not have to pay the full 45p.

Ours for example only pays 40p under such circumstances and HMRC company car rates for people with car allowances (which legally are still private vehicles).

You can claim tax relief on the difference using form P87 - https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/income-...

As this is tax relief however if you were say to do 10k of business miles and were paid 40p you'd lose out on £500 but (if you're a lower rate tax payer) you'd only get £100 back [(45p-40p)*10k*20%]

In theory you can claim an extra 5p per person per mile for anyone taken in the car however I found in reality you struggle unless your company is on-board, there is no provision for it on form P87 and so unless you are regularly carting multiple people round probably not worth it for the small amount extra.

[aporschefan]

ORD said:

EVs all return lower mileage at high speed, don't they? 70ish would count as a high speed for these purposes. Doubt you would reliably get to Bham and back.

In which case I would have to revisit the idea altogether.

Will ask if I can borrow the car for a test drive to B'ham and back. Hopefully they will oblige.

[smn159]

ORD said:

EVs all return lower mileage at high speed, don't they? 70ish would count as a high speed for these purposes. Doubt you would reliably get to Bham and back.

I find around 55 to be the sweet spot for range on the motorway in the Zoe. OK for a junction or two but will be a right ball ache from London-Birmingham.

I usually drive a bit faster and factor in a stop for a recharge and a coffee

[aporschefan]

Fastdruid said:

Correct however they are only advisory rates. Your company does not have to pay the full 45p.

Ours for example only pays 40p under such circumstances and HMRC company car rates for people with car allowances (which legally are still private vehicles).

You can claim tax relief on the difference using form P87 - https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/income-...

As this is tax relief however if you were say to do 10k of business miles and were paid 40p you'd lose out on £500 but (if you're a lower rate tax payer) you'd only get £100 back [(45p-40p)*10k*20%]

In theory you can claim an extra 5p per person per mile for anyone taken in the car however I found in reality you struggle unless your company is on-board, there is no provision for it on form P87 and so unless you are regularly carting multiple people round probably not worth it for the small amount extra.

The company does pay 45p/mile. Shouldn't be a problem claiming the 5p from the company for the passenger either.

[oop north]

You can definitely get the 45p per mile for using your own car - for the first 10,000 business miles a year. After that it's 25p per mile.

If you are doing the distance you expect, though, you might have a challenge charging it up fully at home every night - I am not sure how fast a tesla home charger will work - if you have a 3-phase supply you should be ok but if not you might struggle - do get this clear ahead of everything else. I have an i3 so I can easily manage overnight (though will probably use my Land Rover D4 for big mileage journeys) - but a 90d is 4.5-5x the capacity, and so will need to charge much more quickly than an i3. This might be your biggest problem - though if I were you I would be happy to build in a bit of a stop at the supercharger network - though it sounds like you might not be.

[JonV8V]

I have a 90D and realistically you're looking at a max 220 miles at this time of year, and drive quickly or into a head wind it will drop. They recommend charging to only 90% and that gives a published range of about 235 miles but would you ever want to arrive home with zero in the tank and performance etc also drops off at low charge and the car nags you. I drove south to Lingfield today and its wouldnt do the 180 mile journey into a 50 mph head wind - it was a bit exceptional. Charging is relatively easy at south Oxford though and you can dump 50 miles into the car in the time it takes to have a comfort break and grab a takeaway coffee.

I'm in the company car scheme so different but my understanding is electricity is not a fuel in hmrc eyes so you get nothing in terms of fuel from your employer however you own the car. As a private car owner you can however claim 45p/10k miles etc on your tax code. Stupid rules but seems to be the case.

[mr_tony]

Realistically the ranges you want to do are going to be beyond the general capacity of the Tesla.

Also look at your domestic charging arrangements - unless you can route a 72Amp line to where the charger will be, then you may be reduced to charging overnight from a domestic 13A socket which will give only around 4miles range per hour of charge. This is what killed a 90D order for me - as the nightly range I'd get for the day would be around 50-60 miles at best - which just makes it a useless brick...

Using our i8, my experience of public charging infrastructure have so far been nothing but horrendous -I've had the charger pulled out of the car by someone else wanting to charge their Leaf, and around 50% of the charge locations I've been to have been inoperative due to errors on the system or physical faults with the chargers. I don't bother trying to charge the i8 anywhere apart from at home now, which is a shame, but the financial benefit of a few miles of free juice vs the potential respray cost just doesn't add up.

[xjay1337]

mr_tony said:

Using our i8, my experience of public charging infrastructure have so far been nothing but horrendous -I've had the charger pulled out of the car by someone else wanting to charge their Leaf,

Really???
That's awful. I hope you unplugged their stupid Leaf and let the tyres down!

[aporschefan]

Thanks for your thoughts JonV8V and Mr_Tony. I completely agree that getting 4 mile range /hr is completely and utterly useless! Unless you only drive the car on weekends I suppose?

I'm hoping to speak with one of the Tesla partner companies regarding installing a charger at home which would mean the car can charge overnight in 8-10 hours assuming battery is completely depleted. (Charging times quoted here are what the salesman advised. Let me know if these are unrealistic)

Assuming a full charge overnight, the journey to Leicester and Newbury shouldn't (in theory) be a problem. I need to look closer at the journeys to Birmingham.

Out of interest, assuming it was you completing the journey from London to Birmingham, would you stop to charge en route to Birmingham at at Oxford services (roughly 50 miles into the journey) or on the return leg (approx 180 miles into the journey)? Suppose the danger with charging on the return leg is if the charger isn't working!!!

[mr_tony]

xjay1337 said:

Really???
That's awful. I hope you unplugged their stupid Leaf and let the tyres down!

I did appreciate that having a PHEV plugged into a public charger could be considered 'anti social' when someone with a pure electric rolls up desperate for a charge. Not sure what the etiquette here is. In theory we're all equal when it comes to access to chargers given we've signed up for an ecotricity card or similar. However, PHEV's don't NEED to charge wheres pure EV's doing get home without a charge..

Equally it's clearly not good practice to stop someone else car charging and remove the plug and plug it into yours though. The episode merely hi lighted that even with the limited number of electric cars around, there isn't a particularly good infrastructure for charging , and no etiquette seems to have emerged around it either. (dragging us back towards the topic)

[JonV8V]

mr_tony said:

Realistically the ranges you want to do are going to be beyond the general capacity of the Tesla.

Also look at your domestic charging arrangements - unless you can route a 72Amp line to where the charger will be, then you may be reduced to charging overnight from a domestic 13A socket which will give only around 4miles range per hour of charge. This is what killed a 90D order for me - as the nightly range I'd get for the day would be around 50-60 miles at best - which just makes it a useless brick...

This is largely wrong. You need a 32A circuit and this gives you 20mph charging and a near zero to 90% charge will take about 10 hours. Tesla also pay the first £500 or so amount of any required electrical work. I had a new circuit added, a consumer unit in the garage and the commando socket installed for a cost to me of about £30.

[mr_tony]

You are right - A 32a line will work. The OP will need 100% charge to have any hope of doing the mileage suggested so the most powerful charging option would seem to be the smartest maybe..

The point still stands that if this isn't going to work for you then you are stuck with 4/mph from a 13a socket which makes the Tesla nothing more than an amusing ornament.

For some folks a 32a line is an easy wiring job. Not for everyone though - it's something you have to factor in. For me the cost of getting power to where I want it will be around the same cost as the car itself....

[aporschefan]

mr_tony said:

You are right - A 32a line will work. The OP will need 100% charge to have any hope of doing the mileage suggested so the most powerful charging option would seem to be the smartest maybe..

The point still stands that if this isn't going to work for you then you are stuck with 4/mph from a 13a socket which makes the Tesla nothing more than an amusing ornament.

For some folks a 32a line is an easy wiring job. Not for everyone though - it's something you have to factor in. For me the cost of getting power to where I want it will be around the same cost as the car itself....

Quite right. I can't go much further with this unless I can get a suitable charging point installed.