Tesla Model 3 revealed
Discussion
INWB said:
Interesting take on why the big three don't get it and how Tesla put one of them "right" on production costs.
The big three are so arrogant. I hope that is their downfall. If Tesla are right and those truly are the battery costs then they are significantly in front of the competition
http://jalopnik.com/how-a-boring-finance-call-show...
That reads almost exactly like the RIM (Blackberry) denials when the iPhone was launched.The big three are so arrogant. I hope that is their downfall. If Tesla are right and those truly are the battery costs then they are significantly in front of the competition
http://jalopnik.com/how-a-boring-finance-call-show...
They denied that the battery life with such a big screen could last more than a few hours.
http://www.macnn.com/articles/10/12/27/rim.thought...
Still think they need to do more to make EV's more emotionally attractive. At the moment they seem to be the buy with your head choice rather than the emotive choice that a lot of car purchases can be.
The Tesla 3 looks like a Focus, the Tesla S looks OK for an executive saloon but isn't exactly setting the world on fire. The only semi exciting EV is the i8 and that's £100k.
They seriously need to sex up this segment a bit and come up with an affordable yet exciting car for the masses. Doing something about the noise or lack of would be a good place to start.
The Tesla 3 looks like a Focus, the Tesla S looks OK for an executive saloon but isn't exactly setting the world on fire. The only semi exciting EV is the i8 and that's £100k.
They seriously need to sex up this segment a bit and come up with an affordable yet exciting car for the masses. Doing something about the noise or lack of would be a good place to start.
It is not recommended to tow a broken EV for the following reasons:
1) For permanent magnet machines, driving them (instead of them driving you) means they act as a generator. Under certain conditions (Bemf > VDClink), this can cause uncontrolled generation through the power electronics, leading to failure. (this doesn't actually apply to the Tesla,because it is an "AC" Emachine, without PM, and so requires external excitation to produce it's magnetic field)
2) A "broken" EV may have had a high voltage system failure of some description. Hence, anything that can create a dangerous voltage should be avoided.
3) Rotor heating - PM machines experience significant eddy current losses at high rpm, requiring cooling to void rotot overheat and de-mag. If the cooling system has failed, you don't want to be spinning the motor. (again, being "AC" the Tesla isn't susceptible to this, but chances are, they are playing safe (due to the very rare case in which EVs actually breakdown!)
4) Critical Support systems, like the brake system booster will have a very limited running duration as the HV battery will have been isolated. (this is the most likely reason the Tesla has a limited towing duration)
1) For permanent magnet machines, driving them (instead of them driving you) means they act as a generator. Under certain conditions (Bemf > VDClink), this can cause uncontrolled generation through the power electronics, leading to failure. (this doesn't actually apply to the Tesla,because it is an "AC" Emachine, without PM, and so requires external excitation to produce it's magnetic field)
2) A "broken" EV may have had a high voltage system failure of some description. Hence, anything that can create a dangerous voltage should be avoided.
3) Rotor heating - PM machines experience significant eddy current losses at high rpm, requiring cooling to void rotot overheat and de-mag. If the cooling system has failed, you don't want to be spinning the motor. (again, being "AC" the Tesla isn't susceptible to this, but chances are, they are playing safe (due to the very rare case in which EVs actually breakdown!)
4) Critical Support systems, like the brake system booster will have a very limited running duration as the HV battery will have been isolated. (this is the most likely reason the Tesla has a limited towing duration)
INWB said:
Interesting take on why the big three don't get it and how Tesla put one of them "right" on production costs.
The big three are so arrogant. I hope that is their downfall. If Tesla are right and those truly are the battery costs then they are significantly in front of the competition
http://jalopnik.com/how-a-boring-finance-call-show...
That article puts quite a spin on the raw meat of the argument. GM guessed wrong about what the Model 3 would be like (they assumed all aluminum and bigger battery, in line with the existing models), and the huge subsidies Musk has attracted for the battery factory have dramatically reduced the apparent cost for his battery pack. It's good news for Tesla, but hardly surprising if the experienced car companies get their guesstimates wrong. Is that arrogance? I don't think so - though of course everyone likes a David v's Goliath story.The big three are so arrogant. I hope that is their downfall. If Tesla are right and those truly are the battery costs then they are significantly in front of the competition
http://jalopnik.com/how-a-boring-finance-call-show...
The bad news for Tesla is that everyone else benefits from his success. The rapidly decreasing cost of batteries put another $1500 worth of profit into Chevrolet's hands for each Bolt they sell - yet they don't have to shoulder the huge investment in battery manufacture.
Again, Bob Lutz article is hardly arrogant. He's pointing out that scaling up with company stores is incredibly expensive. He could also point out that the pre-orders for the Model 3 will require absolutely vast amounts of investment to service. At this stage the ways in which Tesla could fail outnumber the ways in which they could succeed.
None of that makes Tesla a bad company, nor will it stop the progress of EVs into the market. But nor does it make the big companies arrogant for letting smaller innovators take the risk on a new technology.
Tuna said:
Hmm the front looks really wierd on that!Tuna said:
He could also point out that the pre-orders for the Model 3 will require absolutely vast amounts of investment to service. At this stage the ways in which Tesla could fail outnumber the ways in which they could succeed.
I totally agree that it is a good idea to let the smaller start-ups take the new technology risk.But I disagree with what you have said here.
Established dealers are literally suing Tesla in order to help with that service, are they wrong?
And since there is no time guarantee on any pre-order, they can take their time with building capacity.
If you are so sure have you put a short bet on TSLA?
walm said:
I totally agree that it is a good idea to let the smaller start-ups take the new technology risk.
But I disagree with what you have said here.
Established dealers are literally suing Tesla in order to help with that service, are they wrong?
And since there is no time guarantee on any pre-order, they can take their time with building capacity.
If you are so sure have you put a short bet on TSLA?
Sorry, service was a poor choice of words - I mean deliver. Ignoring factory, tooling, workforce, distribution etc, the current pre-orders represent something like ten billion dollars worth of up-front cost in materials and components. Sure, they could slow down delivery, but the risk then is that the public will loose faith in a company that cannot keep its promises.But I disagree with what you have said here.
Established dealers are literally suing Tesla in order to help with that service, are they wrong?
And since there is no time guarantee on any pre-order, they can take their time with building capacity.
If you are so sure have you put a short bet on TSLA?
Would I short TSLA? Probably not - Musk is a world class businessman, he's rescued the company from bankruptcy once already and he has tapped into some serious external investment. I'd like them to succeed.
At the same time, I wouldn't put a deposit on their first 'mainstream' product so long before it's actually going to be delivered. It's almost certainly going to be late and within a very short time it will be outdated. If your deposit was non-refundable, would you still place it?
p1stonhead said:
Tuna said:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7VF94Zag0-c
^^ Model 3 being driven for photoshoot.
Hmm the front looks really wierd on that!^^ Model 3 being driven for photoshoot.
k-ink said:
TransverseTight said:
It was the head of Audi that recently said once people buy an EV they are lost from the market for combustion engines for ever.
Interesting quote!http://insideevs.com/audis-electromobility-boss-i-...
But he's right. I used to lust after all the cars on PH. I may still buy one or two in future and do an EV conversion
Right now I'm in this awful place where ICE cats just seem like a pathetic waste of resources make a load of unecessary noise and stink but there's not yet any compelling electric sports cars.
Nevermind the i3 gets me to work and back and allows me a little bit of fun. The model 3 will save me having to charge at work and home and allow me to go camping again.
I'm presuming some time after 2018 we may get a GT86e or a GTR hybrid with a 1.0 turbo petrol generator for the times you go further than 100 miles. Porsche are doing their mission e thing. .. but it will be above my price.... maybe not! 700hp of electric motors are a lot cheaper than a flat 6. Just the battery is the issue and prices are falling at 7% per year.
k-ink said:
I can see an appeal of Tesla. My only issues are the cost, plus the fact that electricity still comes from dirty sources (hardly Teslas fault). Both of these things could / hopefully will change over time. I will still want a PH style car though, if only of nostalgia.
It doesn't have to. You can swap your energy supplier... I'm with Good Energy. All the electric purchased by them and put on the grid on my behalf has to come from green sources. I pay a bit more for it but given I'm saving nearly £2,000 a year in fuel bills I don't mind.
Tuna said:
I love the factory car park stuffed with V8 trucks and SUV's 
TransverseTight said:
It doesn't have to. You can swap your energy supplier... I'm with Good Energy. All the electric purchased by them and put on the grid on my behalf has to come from green sources. I pay a bit more for it but given I'm saving nearly £2,000 a year in fuel bills I don't mind.
Happy to dig up the planet to make the batteries though?RobGT81 said:
Happy to dig up the planet to make the batteries though?
By "dig up" you mean "drill small holes to shove a pipe down"? Extracting Lithium is very similar to extracting oil, except the raw material which comes out isn't particularly harmful if you manage to spill it and you don't need to keep doing it to run the car once it's been manufactured.
I respect what Tesla are trying to do. We just need the rest of the world to clean up its act. The trouble is capitalism only cares about profit. So we will be reading about filthy power for many years yet: pollution from power stations and factories, burying nuclear waste in places of natural beauty and pretending it is clean, same old crap for a long time yet I fear. So as much as I can see the nonsense behind the curtains, at least Tesla are trying. The rest of the world needs to clean up though.
k-ink said:
burying nuclear waste in places of natural beauty .
It's all gone a bit "daily mail" in here hasn't it!Often, due to their geology, places of "Natural beauty", which are often mountainous, rocky, regions, are the BEST places to bury nuclear material because they have the most stable strata below ground. And the clue is the word "bury". We are not going to just leave the material in the corner of a NT car park you know, and because of the high energy density, waste products are relatively small (compared to the VAST, global scale of pollution caused by oil,gas and coal!!) the only on-surface sign of such a depository will be a small entrance tunnel..........
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