Tesla Model 3 revealed
Discussion
EricE said:
Elon Musk said:
Model 3 orders at 180,000 in 24 hours. Selling price w avg option mix prob $42k, so ~$7.5B in a day. Future of electric cars looking bright!
https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/715934657720639488morgrp said:
I like this, but two things personally concern me,
1)I still don't think electric cars of this nature are a solution to the problem. I personally believe Hydrogen fuel cells are.
2) The range quoted is impressive, but I'll believe it when I see it in daily driving conditions
As has been said a few times in this thread, hydrogen efficiency is terrible, and its a b1)I still don't think electric cars of this nature are a solution to the problem. I personally believe Hydrogen fuel cells are.
2) The range quoted is impressive, but I'll believe it when I see it in daily driving conditions
d to store. It would need an entirely new infrastructure. Its only advantage is filling speed. Given that the average driver drives 30 miles a day, it would be better leaving long distance and quick fueling to ICE or hybrid cars. Just think of hydrogen as a very inefficient battery.its justban enegry store after all.Range is not that impressive by Model S standards. Its about right for the type of car though. I have a 130 mile comute (total) which is mostly motorway, and thats 3-4 hours driving every day. I really can't see why the majority of people would need mmore than that, so a practical range of around 200 is more than most people need. Again if you regularly need lots more than that then you really should be buying ICE/REX/hybrid.
EV and ICE (in what ever form) will exist together for quite a while.
Edited by 98elise on Friday 1st April 23:06
DonkeyApple said:
Definitely. But only if ICE are still allowed. I can't wait for all cars in London to be EVs. The peace and quiet and loss of stench will be a dream but I fear that it may come with a ban on those beautiful petrol cars that we will still all love and want to be free to use as and when.
Yes - no bans. I hope the progress that is being made with EVs will mean that for most, non-PH people, the switch from ICE will be a no-brainer, and make economic sense even if they don't care about emissions etc. Plus, when the streets are no longer deafened by the crescendo of diesel clatter, the nice noises made by the odd more special ICE driven cars will sound even sweeter. The way things are presently in cities and town across the globe is actually just crazy. Mostly singly occupied cars sitting or moving relatively slowly in heavy traffic churning out all manner of pollutants. Okay, EVs won't change the sitting in traffic issue, but at least they won't be causing localised pollution. And, let's remember, the vast majority of these ICEs are nothing remotely special and won't be missed in the slightest.
Tesla or someone really needs to get on to revolutionising trucks and buses next too.
I just can't help thinking the oil industry isn't going to take this potential shift lying down though. They've got to be conjuring something up to keep the mass market-fossil fuel age dragging on as long as possible, eking out every last cent of profit before the game is up.
On the other hand, if EVs start taking off in a big way over the next few years, surely petrol / diesel prices would fall further as demand starts to decrease.
Just imagine also if Tesla or others are able to get to a point fairly soon where they are pumping out truly affordable cars for emerging and developing markets. The potential benefits in terms of disrupting the current course (tens of millions of new fossil fuel cars hitting the roads each year) are absolutely enormous.
Anyway, getting carried away...!
Edited by nffcforever on Friday 1st April 22:50
Front end aside, if I had the monies I'd be waiting in line too. Really like everything else about it, especially that glass roof. Didn't realise it went all the way over from front to rear. Literally nothing over your passengers heads but sky (well glad then sky). Really sensible engineering decisions in there too. No dash board, just a big TFT screen with all the info. Will make LHD/RHD conversion a sinch and does away with fiddly switch gear. Allows additional features to be added via software and just look like it was meant to be there all along.
Some utter rubbish being spoken about electric cars as usual.
Batteries are suited to rapid charging… repeated independent tests have shown rapid charging twice a day doesn’t degrade them. What kills them is excess heat, or drawing high power at subzero temperatures. Both of which can be sorted by battery management systems or active cooling (as used by Telsa).
City dwellers? I’ve been driving an i3 for 20 months [thats the ugly uncool EV BMW make
], and done 27,000 miles. It’s a city car (not), but have only needed to rapid charge about 2 dozen times. Had it got 200 mile range that would be exactly zero times. The rest of the charging is done at home. I can give you a rough figure for ALL EV users charging… 80% at home, 5% at work, 5% at a public 7kW charger, 5% at a public rapid (50kW+) charger, and 5% at friends and family on a 13A plug during an overnight/several hours stay.
AA figures show 80% of people have private off road parking, so stop worrying about people with flats or those who have to park in the street. Even a lot of those have dedicated parking spaces. If you don’t have a parking space you’ll be able to pop to a public rapid charger and fill up in less than 30 minutes. Poole council already have some and it costs £4 for an hours charge. They are located near to convince stores, take aways, a pub, or in the case of the municipal office all 3. Order a takeaway, go for a pint, pick up take away, come back to a car is good for another 200 miles.
Regarding grid capacity… the national grid has 20GW spare over night. That’s enough to charge 20 million vehicles enough to do the average 40 miles a day. We’ll need to build some new power stations by 2040 as not everyone is going to buy a Telsa next year. You’ll need to wait till they trickle down to the 2nd hand market for people unable to afford a £30k car or the Model 4 or 5 to come out? I have also been working on the Smart meter roll out and can tell you by 2020 all houses will have a comms box that can switch a EV charger on and off as grid peaks to get you cheaper electric (your car gets used as a balancing service for the grid). There won’t be any car to grid charging though… car batteries are still too expensive to waste precious cycles. Instead wall mounted stationary batteries will become common.
Hydrogen is not a fuel. It takes 4kWh of electricity to make 1kWh of hydrogen to make 1kWh of electricity run the electric motors in an FCEV. So it will always cost AT LEAST 4x more to run an H2 car compared to an EV. Why do all that when you can dump 1.1kWh in battery and get 1kWh back. The trajectory of battery prices and capacity means by 2022 you can buy a Ford Focus priced car able to do a Model 3 like 200 miles. It will be game over for ICE and H2. That’s before we add how do you get enough electricity to make and transport enough H2 to run 30,000,000 cars You think charging them is a problem? Try running them on H2! It needs to be stored cryogenically and can’t be done on the drive at home while you sleep using excess power station capacity. For 2p/mile equivalent. It is expected EVs could bring down the price of electricity by making gas turbine stations able to run more efficiently. H2 is going to cost more like 15p/mile once you add transport and storage costs and all the new infrastructure needed. A bit more than petrol. LOL. An EV just needs a fancy plug socket at home. You can make H2 using Steam reformation of fossil fuels at 70% efficiency but this doesn’t get rid of the CO2 problem, and will still cost more than charging using off peak electric due to distribution costs (and you'll still have to queue at Tesco). Lastly - the Ugly as sin Toyota Mirai still costs over £60k due to having to use platinum to coat the polymer membranes in the fuel cell stack. That’s to deliver moderate performance and the cells gum up after about 80k and need to be replaced. I've been waiting for FCEVs to get cheaper since 1999, progress has been slower than a GWiz. Next idea?
Whats the real Model 3 range? Given the figure quoted is the US EPA - existing Model S cars get that range in summer if not driven hard, and about 10% less in winter. If you want to drive at 155mph on the autobahn you’ll empty the battery in less than 100 miles. Best to do 80, let the autopilot drive and catch up on PH forums
How much will they cost? Take $35k, add 20% VAT, about $1,000 in shipping, you'll get a figure of around £29,500, Call it £30k. That's moderately specced compact exec territory, but with 1/4 the ongoing running costs / tax. I think these will sell like erm, 3 series do.
As to me I spent all week telling people they were mad of thinking of putting on a deposit for a car which is unlikely to be seen on UK shores until 2019. Then I saw the post reveal event photos. £1,000 deposit paid at lunchtime, which puts me about #180,000 in the queue.
My plan is to add AWD, bigger battery and performance edition. Jump the queue ;-) That gives you a car faster than an M4 from the lights, cheaper (free) to get to Le Mans or Italy, and day to day running costs less than a Polo Bluemotion (if you ignore depreciation). It’s all down to personal taste, but I doubt any other maker will be bringing out a car this good looking, (ICE or EV) this side of 2020. If they do, well the £1000 is fully refundable.
Has anyone else worked out it may be a combined hatch / saloon? As in the whole rear glass panel may hinge at the B Pillar. Not sure but there's some pipework around the B Pillar that's remarkably like an oversize gas strut. The smaller rear saloon hatch has its own regular size gas struts, so may be a door in a door!?
Batteries are suited to rapid charging… repeated independent tests have shown rapid charging twice a day doesn’t degrade them. What kills them is excess heat, or drawing high power at subzero temperatures. Both of which can be sorted by battery management systems or active cooling (as used by Telsa).
City dwellers? I’ve been driving an i3 for 20 months [thats the ugly uncool EV BMW make
], and done 27,000 miles. It’s a city car (not), but have only needed to rapid charge about 2 dozen times. Had it got 200 mile range that would be exactly zero times. The rest of the charging is done at home. I can give you a rough figure for ALL EV users charging… 80% at home, 5% at work, 5% at a public 7kW charger, 5% at a public rapid (50kW+) charger, and 5% at friends and family on a 13A plug during an overnight/several hours stay.AA figures show 80% of people have private off road parking, so stop worrying about people with flats or those who have to park in the street. Even a lot of those have dedicated parking spaces. If you don’t have a parking space you’ll be able to pop to a public rapid charger and fill up in less than 30 minutes. Poole council already have some and it costs £4 for an hours charge. They are located near to convince stores, take aways, a pub, or in the case of the municipal office all 3. Order a takeaway, go for a pint, pick up take away, come back to a car is good for another 200 miles.
Regarding grid capacity… the national grid has 20GW spare over night. That’s enough to charge 20 million vehicles enough to do the average 40 miles a day. We’ll need to build some new power stations by 2040 as not everyone is going to buy a Telsa next year. You’ll need to wait till they trickle down to the 2nd hand market for people unable to afford a £30k car or the Model 4 or 5 to come out? I have also been working on the Smart meter roll out and can tell you by 2020 all houses will have a comms box that can switch a EV charger on and off as grid peaks to get you cheaper electric (your car gets used as a balancing service for the grid). There won’t be any car to grid charging though… car batteries are still too expensive to waste precious cycles. Instead wall mounted stationary batteries will become common.
Hydrogen is not a fuel. It takes 4kWh of electricity to make 1kWh of hydrogen to make 1kWh of electricity run the electric motors in an FCEV. So it will always cost AT LEAST 4x more to run an H2 car compared to an EV. Why do all that when you can dump 1.1kWh in battery and get 1kWh back. The trajectory of battery prices and capacity means by 2022 you can buy a Ford Focus priced car able to do a Model 3 like 200 miles. It will be game over for ICE and H2. That’s before we add how do you get enough electricity to make and transport enough H2 to run 30,000,000 cars You think charging them is a problem? Try running them on H2! It needs to be stored cryogenically and can’t be done on the drive at home while you sleep using excess power station capacity. For 2p/mile equivalent. It is expected EVs could bring down the price of electricity by making gas turbine stations able to run more efficiently. H2 is going to cost more like 15p/mile once you add transport and storage costs and all the new infrastructure needed. A bit more than petrol. LOL. An EV just needs a fancy plug socket at home. You can make H2 using Steam reformation of fossil fuels at 70% efficiency but this doesn’t get rid of the CO2 problem, and will still cost more than charging using off peak electric due to distribution costs (and you'll still have to queue at Tesco). Lastly - the Ugly as sin Toyota Mirai still costs over £60k due to having to use platinum to coat the polymer membranes in the fuel cell stack. That’s to deliver moderate performance and the cells gum up after about 80k and need to be replaced. I've been waiting for FCEVs to get cheaper since 1999, progress has been slower than a GWiz. Next idea?
Whats the real Model 3 range? Given the figure quoted is the US EPA - existing Model S cars get that range in summer if not driven hard, and about 10% less in winter. If you want to drive at 155mph on the autobahn you’ll empty the battery in less than 100 miles. Best to do 80, let the autopilot drive and catch up on PH forums
How much will they cost? Take $35k, add 20% VAT, about $1,000 in shipping, you'll get a figure of around £29,500, Call it £30k. That's moderately specced compact exec territory, but with 1/4 the ongoing running costs / tax. I think these will sell like erm, 3 series do.
As to me I spent all week telling people they were mad of thinking of putting on a deposit for a car which is unlikely to be seen on UK shores until 2019. Then I saw the post reveal event photos. £1,000 deposit paid at lunchtime, which puts me about #180,000 in the queue.
My plan is to add AWD, bigger battery and performance edition. Jump the queue ;-) That gives you a car faster than an M4 from the lights, cheaper (free) to get to Le Mans or Italy, and day to day running costs less than a Polo Bluemotion (if you ignore depreciation). It’s all down to personal taste, but I doubt any other maker will be bringing out a car this good looking, (ICE or EV) this side of 2020. If they do, well the £1000 is fully refundable. Has anyone else worked out it may be a combined hatch / saloon? As in the whole rear glass panel may hinge at the B Pillar. Not sure but there's some pipework around the B Pillar that's remarkably like an oversize gas strut. The smaller rear saloon hatch has its own regular size gas struts, so may be a door in a door!?
blearyeyedboy said:
Hyperbole is hard to avoid, isn't it? And yet this feels as if VW had brought out the Mk 5 Golf at the time Ford brought out the Mk 5 Escort.
I think BMW, Mercedes and VW will be bricking themselves.
Yes indeed - it is reminiscent of how Apple shook up the mobile industry, the presentation, direct selling, not-new tech but packaged well and supported by the ecosystem.I think BMW, Mercedes and VW will be bricking themselves.
I think all car makers should be bricking themselves to be honest. The jump that Tesla appear to have got in terms of the charging network and battery manufacturing infrastructure alone would take some effort to claw back on.
Teslas are nice cars, and I would have a Model S in a heartbeat if I could afford it. Nevertheless I think pure battery electric vehicles are nothing more than an evolutionary step towards a more viable mobility concept, e.g. hydrogen fuel cells.
Of course, batteries will get cheaper, what with a huge amount of production capacity planned, but the amount of material that goes into these batteries, Lithium etc, will remain rather large so that we won't see extreme price drops.
Concerning the Model 3, as far as I can see, and others have pointed out, there actually have been no orders yet, just refundable deposits. I would certainly be interested in how many people will pull their money out when waiting times get longer, be it through increased demand or production hiccups, and buy something else.
Most major manufacturers have not been burying their heads in the sand and Tesla will be looking at quite a few formidable competitors in the years to come, e.g. Porsche mission e.
Of course, batteries will get cheaper, what with a huge amount of production capacity planned, but the amount of material that goes into these batteries, Lithium etc, will remain rather large so that we won't see extreme price drops.
Concerning the Model 3, as far as I can see, and others have pointed out, there actually have been no orders yet, just refundable deposits. I would certainly be interested in how many people will pull their money out when waiting times get longer, be it through increased demand or production hiccups, and buy something else.
Most major manufacturers have not been burying their heads in the sand and Tesla will be looking at quite a few formidable competitors in the years to come, e.g. Porsche mission e.
nffcforever said:
I just can't help thinking the oil industry isn't going to take this potential shift lying down though. They've got to be conjuring something up to keep the mass market-fossil fuel age dragging on as long as possible, eking out every last cent of profit before the game is up.
They're not - who do you think is pushing hard for a "hydrogen economy"? And how do you think you make hydrogen?Edited by nffcforever on Friday 1st April 22:50
98elise said:
As has been said a few times in this thread, hydrogen efficiency is terrible, and its a bd to store. It would need an entirely new infrastructure. Its only advantage is filling speed. Given that the average driver drives 30 miles a day, it would be better leaving long distance and quick fueling to ICE or hybrid cars.
Having had the fun of watching some hydrogen refueling in California, it doesn't really even have the advantage of filling speed. Fiddly pressurised connector like an LPG one (you don't just aim the nozzle and pour, like you can with liquid fuels). So fiddly that nobody was allowed to have a go unless they had had special training, so I can't say exactly what was so troublesome. Then when you get it connected there is this complicated electronic handshaking so the car and the pump can establish that it's safe to proceed. Then the pump has to chill down and compress the hydrogen. It worked okay for the first guy in the queue but the second one had to wait while the pump re-pressurised its tank. Not sure how long it took, but it certainly wasn't five minutes. d to store. It would need an entirely new infrastructure. Its only advantage is filling speed. Given that the average driver drives 30 miles a day, it would be better leaving long distance and quick fueling to ICE or hybrid cars.Apparently the hydrogen also slowly leaks away if you leave the car parked, so after a couple of weeks even if you haven't driven it you need to refill - and of course you can't just get a jerry can and carry it home, so if you are going away on holiday you need to make some arrangements for your car to be refuelled.
That said, I'm not on the list for a Model 3 as while it has swoopy styling they have given it a boot.
Impasse said:
Can't see the attraction myself. It's just a very dull four door saloon car. Big whoop. But I suppose if you're in the market for a dull four door saloon car this might be no worse than others.
Indeed, although it isn't the really boring three-box square edged style favoured by certain other manufacturers and does have a highly innovative interior and drivetrain ... it is a saloon. I've had enough saloons to appreciate that while they're fine 95% of the time you bitterly regret not having a hatch when you want to put your bike in the boot, or take that big TV home, or ... I forgot to cover free supercharging. It's not free. You've paid £2,000 for it hidden in the cost of the car (it used to be an option) . The cash is used to fund long term build of solar an power purchase agreements. I expect the T&Cs will change from lessons learned on the model S to be something like "Supercharging is free for life but designed to enable long distance travel. If you are found to be regularly using super chargers to charge near home and have enough battery capacity to return, you will face having your supercharging rights terminated following a number of written warnings. If you wish to regularly charge at a supercharger near your home as you have no off street parking, we offer the following usage based tariffs....£???"
However it's a serious draw for reps! go for the 300 mile range option and are fuel for life!
However it's a serious draw for reps! go for the 300 mile range option and are fuel for life!
TransverseTight said:
Some utter rubbish being spoken about electric cars as usual.
Batteries are suited to rapid charging… repeated independent tests have shown rapid charging twice a day doesn’t degrade them. What kills them is excess heat, or drawing high power at subzero temperatures. Both of which can be sorted by battery management systems or active cooling (as used by Telsa).
City dwellers? I’ve been driving an i3 for 20 months [thats the ugly uncool EV BMW make ], and done 27,000 miles. It’s a city car (not), but have only needed to rapid charge about 2 dozen times. Had it got 200 mile range that would be exactly zero times. The rest of the charging is done at home. I can give you a rough figure for ALL EV users charging… 80% at home, 5% at work, 5% at a public 7kW charger, 5% at a public rapid (50kW+) charger, and 5% at friends and family on a 13A plug during an overnight/several hours stay.
AA figures show 80% of people have private off road parking, so stop worrying about people with flats or those who have to park in the street. Even a lot of those have dedicated parking spaces. If you don’t have a parking space you’ll be able to pop to a public rapid charger and fill up in less than 30 minutes. Poole council already have some and it costs £4 for an hours charge. They are located near to convince stores, take aways, a pub, or in the case of the municipal office all 3. Order a takeaway, go for a pint, pick up take away, come back to a car is good for another 200 miles.
Regarding grid capacity… the national grid has 20GW spare over night. That’s enough to charge 20 million vehicles enough to do the average 40 miles a day. We’ll need to build some new power stations by 2040 as not everyone is going to buy a Telsa next year. You’ll need to wait till they trickle down to the 2nd hand market for people unable to afford a £30k car or the Model 4 or 5 to come out? I have also been working on the Smart meter roll out and can tell you by 2020 all houses will have a comms box that can switch a EV charger on and off as grid peaks to get you cheaper electric (your car gets used as a balancing service for the grid). There won’t be any car to grid charging though… car batteries are still too expensive to waste precious cycles. Instead wall mounted stationary batteries will become common.
Hydrogen is not a fuel. It takes 4kWh of electricity to make 1kWh of hydrogen to make 1kWh of electricity run the electric motors in an FCEV. So it will always cost AT LEAST 4x more to run an H2 car compared to an EV. Why do all that when you can dump 1.1kWh in battery and get 1kWh back. The trajectory of battery prices and capacity means by 2022 you can buy a Ford Focus priced car able to do a Model 3 like 200 miles. It will be game over for ICE and H2. That’s before we add how do you get enough electricity to make and transport enough H2 to run 30,000,000 cars You think charging them is a problem? Try running them on H2! It needs to be stored cryogenically and can’t be done on the drive at home while you sleep using excess power station capacity. For 2p/mile equivalent. It is expected EVs could bring down the price of electricity by making gas turbine stations able to run more efficiently. H2 is going to cost more like 15p/mile once you add transport and storage costs and all the new infrastructure needed. A bit more than petrol. LOL. An EV just needs a fancy plug socket at home. You can make H2 using Steam reformation of fossil fuels at 70% efficiency but this doesn’t get rid of the CO2 problem, and will still cost more than charging using off peak electric due to distribution costs (and you'll still have to queue at Tesco). Lastly - the Ugly as sin Toyota Mirai still costs over £60k due to having to use platinum to coat the polymer membranes in the fuel cell stack. That’s to deliver moderate performance and the cells gum up after about 80k and need to be replaced. I've been waiting for FCEVs to get cheaper since 1999, progress has been slower than a GWiz. Next idea?
Whats the real Model 3 range? Given the figure quoted is the US EPA - existing Model S cars get that range in summer if not driven hard, and about 10% less in winter. If you want to drive at 155mph on the autobahn you’ll empty the battery in less than 100 miles. Best to do 80, let the autopilot drive and catch up on PH forums
How much will they cost? Take $35k, add 20% VAT, about $1,000 in shipping, you'll get a figure of around £29,500, Call it £30k. That's moderately specced compact exec territory, but with 1/4 the ongoing running costs / tax. I think these will sell like erm, 3 series do.
As to me I spent all week telling people they were mad of thinking of putting on a deposit for a car which is unlikely to be seen on UK shores until 2019. Then I saw the post reveal event photos. £1,000 deposit paid at lunchtime, which puts me about #180,000 in the queue. My plan is to add AWD, bigger battery and performance edition. Jump the queue ;-) That gives you a car faster than an M4 from the lights, cheaper (free) to get to Le Mans or Italy, and day to day running costs less than a Polo Bluemotion (if you ignore depreciation). It’s all down to personal taste, but I doubt any other maker will be bringing out a car this good looking, (ICE or EV) this side of 2020. If they do, well the £1000 is fully refundable.
Has anyone else worked out it may be a combined hatch / saloon? As in the whole rear glass panel may hinge at the B Pillar. Not sure but there's some pipework around the B Pillar that's remarkably like an oversize gas strut. The smaller rear saloon hatch has its own regular size gas struts, so may be a door in a door!?
What he said (though don't write off H just yet, I think it will have its place if development continues).Batteries are suited to rapid charging… repeated independent tests have shown rapid charging twice a day doesn’t degrade them. What kills them is excess heat, or drawing high power at subzero temperatures. Both of which can be sorted by battery management systems or active cooling (as used by Telsa).
City dwellers? I’ve been driving an i3 for 20 months [thats the ugly uncool EV BMW make
], and done 27,000 miles. It’s a city car (not), but have only needed to rapid charge about 2 dozen times. Had it got 200 mile range that would be exactly zero times. The rest of the charging is done at home. I can give you a rough figure for ALL EV users charging… 80% at home, 5% at work, 5% at a public 7kW charger, 5% at a public rapid (50kW+) charger, and 5% at friends and family on a 13A plug during an overnight/several hours stay.AA figures show 80% of people have private off road parking, so stop worrying about people with flats or those who have to park in the street. Even a lot of those have dedicated parking spaces. If you don’t have a parking space you’ll be able to pop to a public rapid charger and fill up in less than 30 minutes. Poole council already have some and it costs £4 for an hours charge. They are located near to convince stores, take aways, a pub, or in the case of the municipal office all 3. Order a takeaway, go for a pint, pick up take away, come back to a car is good for another 200 miles.
Regarding grid capacity… the national grid has 20GW spare over night. That’s enough to charge 20 million vehicles enough to do the average 40 miles a day. We’ll need to build some new power stations by 2040 as not everyone is going to buy a Telsa next year. You’ll need to wait till they trickle down to the 2nd hand market for people unable to afford a £30k car or the Model 4 or 5 to come out? I have also been working on the Smart meter roll out and can tell you by 2020 all houses will have a comms box that can switch a EV charger on and off as grid peaks to get you cheaper electric (your car gets used as a balancing service for the grid). There won’t be any car to grid charging though… car batteries are still too expensive to waste precious cycles. Instead wall mounted stationary batteries will become common.
Hydrogen is not a fuel. It takes 4kWh of electricity to make 1kWh of hydrogen to make 1kWh of electricity run the electric motors in an FCEV. So it will always cost AT LEAST 4x more to run an H2 car compared to an EV. Why do all that when you can dump 1.1kWh in battery and get 1kWh back. The trajectory of battery prices and capacity means by 2022 you can buy a Ford Focus priced car able to do a Model 3 like 200 miles. It will be game over for ICE and H2. That’s before we add how do you get enough electricity to make and transport enough H2 to run 30,000,000 cars You think charging them is a problem? Try running them on H2! It needs to be stored cryogenically and can’t be done on the drive at home while you sleep using excess power station capacity. For 2p/mile equivalent. It is expected EVs could bring down the price of electricity by making gas turbine stations able to run more efficiently. H2 is going to cost more like 15p/mile once you add transport and storage costs and all the new infrastructure needed. A bit more than petrol. LOL. An EV just needs a fancy plug socket at home. You can make H2 using Steam reformation of fossil fuels at 70% efficiency but this doesn’t get rid of the CO2 problem, and will still cost more than charging using off peak electric due to distribution costs (and you'll still have to queue at Tesco). Lastly - the Ugly as sin Toyota Mirai still costs over £60k due to having to use platinum to coat the polymer membranes in the fuel cell stack. That’s to deliver moderate performance and the cells gum up after about 80k and need to be replaced. I've been waiting for FCEVs to get cheaper since 1999, progress has been slower than a GWiz. Next idea?
Whats the real Model 3 range? Given the figure quoted is the US EPA - existing Model S cars get that range in summer if not driven hard, and about 10% less in winter. If you want to drive at 155mph on the autobahn you’ll empty the battery in less than 100 miles. Best to do 80, let the autopilot drive and catch up on PH forums
How much will they cost? Take $35k, add 20% VAT, about $1,000 in shipping, you'll get a figure of around £29,500, Call it £30k. That's moderately specced compact exec territory, but with 1/4 the ongoing running costs / tax. I think these will sell like erm, 3 series do.
As to me I spent all week telling people they were mad of thinking of putting on a deposit for a car which is unlikely to be seen on UK shores until 2019. Then I saw the post reveal event photos. £1,000 deposit paid at lunchtime, which puts me about #180,000 in the queue.
My plan is to add AWD, bigger battery and performance edition. Jump the queue ;-) That gives you a car faster than an M4 from the lights, cheaper (free) to get to Le Mans or Italy, and day to day running costs less than a Polo Bluemotion (if you ignore depreciation). It’s all down to personal taste, but I doubt any other maker will be bringing out a car this good looking, (ICE or EV) this side of 2020. If they do, well the £1000 is fully refundable. Has anyone else worked out it may be a combined hatch / saloon? As in the whole rear glass panel may hinge at the B Pillar. Not sure but there's some pipework around the B Pillar that's remarkably like an oversize gas strut. The smaller rear saloon hatch has its own regular size gas struts, so may be a door in a door!?
On your last point.... that would be nice. Does the S do that? I know Skoda had a similar set up on the MK 2 Superb saloon. You could open the boot like a normal saloon and then if you used a different button, open the whole back up like a hatch! It looks like a very practical car. Storage in the front and in the back and plenty of cabin space for passengers when you don't have pesky items like gearboxes or fuel tanks to locate.
TransverseTight said:
If you don’t have a parking space you’ll be able to pop to a public rapid charger and fill up in less than 30 minutes. Poole council already have some and it costs £4 for an hours charge.
Can you book them? If that was my only option I'd quickly get very bored of not being able to get a spot upon arrival.Kermit74 said:
It's great to see mostly positive comments on here about this. I can wait to get this level of performance and economy.
Elon Musk is a top man in my book.
Indeed he is. I just like how he's not shy. He's always on twitter or whatever making comments, showing off the good bits and the bad bits of what his companies are doing. Got to respect what they've achieved with Tesla and Space X especially.Elon Musk is a top man in my book.
TransverseTight said:
Some utter rubbish being spoken about electric cars as usual.
Batteries are suited to rapid charging…
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whatcha gonna do I there's a queue of 3 cars in front of you at the "pumps"? Wait an hour and a half for your own 30 minute charge? That's where it all falls down. Batteries are suited to rapid charging…
Flooble said:
nffcforever said:
I just can't help thinking the oil industry isn't going to take this potential shift lying down though. They've got to be conjuring something up to keep the mass market-fossil fuel age dragging on as long as possible, eking out every last cent of profit before the game is up.
They're not - who do you think is pushing hard for a "hydrogen economy"? And how do you think you make hydrogen?Edited by nffcforever on Friday 1st April 22:50
Ozzie Osmond said:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whatcha gonna do I there's a queue of 3 cars in front of you at the "pumps"? Wait an hour and a half for your own 30 minute charge? That's where it all falls down.
Yes, that was exactly the problem the Hydrogen guys had in California, with it taking so long to re-pressurise. They had to just suck it up since the H2 pumps are so expensive there wasn't another one for miles. At least the electric car guys had the option to go anywhere there was electricity. And it would appear that it's pretty cheap to just keep putting in more "pumps" and spreading the electricity out amongst them.http://gas2.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Portlan...
http://www.lifegate.com/app/uploads/1432718646262....
TheInternet said:
Can you book them? If that was my only option I'd quickly get very bored of not being able to get a spot upon arrival.
Not yet as they aren't that busy. I Was down there visiting mum and dad over the bank holiday weekend and didn't see another car there... Used them twice anddrove past 4 more times. I've spoken to the company who run the backend network for Poole called Charge Your Car and it is in long term plans. I think with only 50,000 EVs on the road it's not a problem, but with 200,000 we'll need a) a lot more chargers b) to be able to book them c) price them higher in peak periods instead of having a flat rate tariff which they have now. Poole have been the closest to getting the price right, except they don't allow you to pay in 15 minute chunks, which would be better. I think most operators have read the specs that EVs can cage to 80% in 20 minutes and base tariffs around that. About 50% of the times I've use rapid chargers I'd doing say a 100 mile round trip and just need a 30 mile top up to get back home. I'm not going to sit there for 20-30 minutes, when I can leave after 7. Even when it's free. If I was paying by the minute or the kWh I'd have even more incentive to get off an let someone else charge.The best part about Telsa super chargers is they run at up to 130kW - where as the rest of us mortals are stuck at 50kW. They are also ultrareliable due to how they are built out of multiple redundant modules. I never heard of a super charger out of order. The DBT units that Ecotrcity chose for the motorway network have been notoriously unreliable. The one I use most often near Nottignham has been up and down for months... Though it's finally stayed up for longer than a month. However. It's' why I stuck my deposit on today. Even if Jag/Audi/Porsche etc come up with a new EV, the thought of trying to get to Le Mans in 2019 when there may be another 200,000 EVs on the roads doesn't bear thinking about. Telsa seems to be keeping the ratio of supercharge stalls to cars at around 100:1 that's not sites, but individual charge points. They start a site with 2, and when it gets busy upgrade it to 6. If that gets busy they stick another site along the route. I've looked at the SC network as it is now, and I can reach anywhere in Europe I've ever driven in my life, so good enough for me! I'm taking my i3 to Le Mans this year but think about 50% of the trip will be using the range extender
I could get all mushy about wanting to support Telsa, but actually I just love the look of the car. Makes me think of Astons. I saw the 2nd photo on their full size pic on their website - a pair of red and silver ones, and was reaching for my wallet! LOL. That said, if Jag come along offering an XFe or maybe XE-e before 2019, they might get my order. I think that's Tony Starks sorry Elon's plan
Force the hand of the big makers into entering the competition.Ozzie Osmond said:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whatcha gonna do I there's a queue of 3 cars in front of you at the "pumps"? Wait an hour and a half for your own 30 minute charge? That's where it all falls down.
How many a time a year do I drive more than 200 miles in 1 go? I can tell you as I've been monitoring my usage since getting the i3. In 27,000 miles, exactly no times. Mum and dad live 180 miles away. I did do 360 miles in 1 day once (in an i3 with 70-80 mile EV range + 70-80 petrol) but that was a 120 mile round trip to work, a quick top up on my home 7kW while packing and having dinner, followed by a 180 mile trip to Poole with a detour on the way. As I've just posted, Telsa seem to be using £2,000 from the sale of each car to keep expanding the SC network. Which is where all the other MF's making EVs are failing. I've got a bunch of RFID cards and still can't charge at all the places I'd like. And some of the prices are stupid. Telsa is unique in having a fast, reliable free to use network (once you've paid the £2,000 built into the car cost).
Edited by TransverseTight on Saturday 2nd April 00:25
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