RiverSimple Rasa (hydrogen fuel cell)
Discussion
"Meticulously clean production facility".
Photo below of blokes in jeans and hoodies working away on a car in what looks like an abandoned 70s office, mismatched blue carpet tiles and beige wall panelling
They've spent nearly 4 years on an impressive amount of PR but haven't even put 4 cars together yet, even though they buy in things like the fuel cell off the shelf.
How much grant money have they hoovered up so far?
Photo below of blokes in jeans and hoodies working away on a car in what looks like an abandoned 70s office, mismatched blue carpet tiles and beige wall panelling
They've spent nearly 4 years on an impressive amount of PR but haven't even put 4 cars together yet, even though they buy in things like the fuel cell off the shelf.
How much grant money have they hoovered up so far?
The "future transport" cars all fall into the same trap, namely, there is no legal or practical framework into which they can fall and actually provide any significant advantage.
For example, for the last 3 years i have been driving a carbon fibre, low mass, battery electric vehicle. It seats 4, has a decent sized boot, has good performance, lots of NCAP stars, is serviced at a main dealer just down the road, and i bought it, second hand for so little money that it's worth today, the same amount as i paid for it 3 years ago.
So, what exactly, does an impractically small, 2 seat, completely unsupported "niche" vehicle get me??
If you want low carbon, local single person transport, get a push bike (or maybe even an eBike...) but if you want a "car" that is affordable and crucially, practical, then, just buy a car! (and EV versions of these cars are now increasingly available from all the major players for ever reducing cost)
The article says
"The Riversimple business model - a three-year fixed price lease aimed at short-distance local drivers - is designed to negate the biggest problem affecting hydrogen cars: range anxiety."
Wait, what? Why would short distance local drivers have "range anxiety"? I have the smallest battery in my i3. In the worst case (winter + me driving like a tit) it'll only do 60 odd miles between charges. But "Local" driving is not long distance, so 60 miles a day is more than enough. My commute is actually 32 miles a day, which is twice the UK average commute, and yet even then, i can do 2 days commuting without charging if i need to. Or do the days commute, and still have plenty of charge to pop out for a meal / to-the-pub/go shopping in the evening as necessary.
If you only go a few miles, the entire USP of hydrogen, namely the "quick" refuelling is not necessary, so why would you use hydrogen? Fuel cells still need battery packs (for load leveling) and if you do the sums, it's far better to ditch the expensive fuel cell and all the complex, dangerous hydrogen bits, and just use the space / money to buy a bigger battery and install that in the gap!!
And when you do that, you get a renault Zoe, or a Pug 208e, or a Leaf, etc etc etc
For example, for the last 3 years i have been driving a carbon fibre, low mass, battery electric vehicle. It seats 4, has a decent sized boot, has good performance, lots of NCAP stars, is serviced at a main dealer just down the road, and i bought it, second hand for so little money that it's worth today, the same amount as i paid for it 3 years ago.
So, what exactly, does an impractically small, 2 seat, completely unsupported "niche" vehicle get me??
If you want low carbon, local single person transport, get a push bike (or maybe even an eBike...) but if you want a "car" that is affordable and crucially, practical, then, just buy a car! (and EV versions of these cars are now increasingly available from all the major players for ever reducing cost)
The article says
"The Riversimple business model - a three-year fixed price lease aimed at short-distance local drivers - is designed to negate the biggest problem affecting hydrogen cars: range anxiety."
Wait, what? Why would short distance local drivers have "range anxiety"? I have the smallest battery in my i3. In the worst case (winter + me driving like a tit) it'll only do 60 odd miles between charges. But "Local" driving is not long distance, so 60 miles a day is more than enough. My commute is actually 32 miles a day, which is twice the UK average commute, and yet even then, i can do 2 days commuting without charging if i need to. Or do the days commute, and still have plenty of charge to pop out for a meal / to-the-pub/go shopping in the evening as necessary.
If you only go a few miles, the entire USP of hydrogen, namely the "quick" refuelling is not necessary, so why would you use hydrogen? Fuel cells still need battery packs (for load leveling) and if you do the sums, it's far better to ditch the expensive fuel cell and all the complex, dangerous hydrogen bits, and just use the space / money to buy a bigger battery and install that in the gap!!
And when you do that, you get a renault Zoe, or a Pug 208e, or a Leaf, etc etc etc
Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 5th November 12:04
So they've had £2m via crowdfunding in 2017/18, and £840k via the latest one this year. https://www.seedrs.com/riversimple1
£1.25m from the OLEV in February this year. https://www.riversimple.com/wp-content/uploads/201... - to make the 20 trial cars that they said they'd build back in 2017.
£2.1m from the Welsh Government in 2015 http://www.disrupt100.com/?company=riversimple
2m euros from the EU as part of the SWARM project. https://www.swarm-project.eu/
So give or take £8m ish?
The company seems to be a dozen or more entities too. https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/officers/LTouUK...
£1.25m from the OLEV in February this year. https://www.riversimple.com/wp-content/uploads/201... - to make the 20 trial cars that they said they'd build back in 2017.
£2.1m from the Welsh Government in 2015 http://www.disrupt100.com/?company=riversimple
2m euros from the EU as part of the SWARM project. https://www.swarm-project.eu/
So give or take £8m ish?
The company seems to be a dozen or more entities too. https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/officers/LTouUK...
typical BBC article, ignores the major problems
98% of hydrogen production is fossil fuel based 'black hydrogen'
It takes 3 units of energy to get 1 unit of hydrogen which is used at a 60% efficiency in fuel cell. You may as well put those 3 units of energy in a BEV and use them at 90% efficiency
its not just the tank that needs to be armour plated, the pipes etc also need to be armour plated. The stoichiometric air/fuel ratio for hydrogen is 34:1, you would not need a lot leaked into a boot or the cabin of the car to get an explosion.
There is no infrastructure
The cost is close to fossil fuel
My understanding is the filling stations need to charge between each vehicle which takes a great deal of time
I am sure in a decade or more science will get around these problems, but its a long way off atm
a faulty valve caused a Norway hydrogen fuelling station to catch fire a few months back
https://www.fleeteurope.com/en/new-energies/norway...
98% of hydrogen production is fossil fuel based 'black hydrogen'
It takes 3 units of energy to get 1 unit of hydrogen which is used at a 60% efficiency in fuel cell. You may as well put those 3 units of energy in a BEV and use them at 90% efficiency
its not just the tank that needs to be armour plated, the pipes etc also need to be armour plated. The stoichiometric air/fuel ratio for hydrogen is 34:1, you would not need a lot leaked into a boot or the cabin of the car to get an explosion.
There is no infrastructure
The cost is close to fossil fuel
My understanding is the filling stations need to charge between each vehicle which takes a great deal of time
I am sure in a decade or more science will get around these problems, but its a long way off atm
a faulty valve caused a Norway hydrogen fuelling station to catch fire a few months back
https://www.fleeteurope.com/en/new-energies/norway...
Edited by Dave Hedgehog on Tuesday 5th November 16:28
Over on speakEV we've been calling it a scam for YEARS yet it continues to get millions in funding.
I'm not even mad any more, I actually just wish I'd pretended I thought hydrogen invalid carriages were the future too and got in on this scam and walked away with a share of that £8million+.
Damn those guys have played a clever long con... and they absolutely will get away with it as long as they just keep saying the really believed it was viable.
I'm not even mad any more, I actually just wish I'd pretended I thought hydrogen invalid carriages were the future too and got in on this scam and walked away with a share of that £8million+.
Damn those guys have played a clever long con... and they absolutely will get away with it as long as they just keep saying the really believed it was viable.
jjwilde said:
Over on speakEV we've been calling it a scam for YEARS yet it continues to get millions in funding.
I'm not even mad any more, I actually just wish I'd pretended I thought hydrogen invalid carriages were the future too and got in on this scam and walked away with a share of that £8million+.
Damn those guys have played a clever long con... and they absolutely will get away with it as long as they just keep saying the really believed it was viable.
i dont think its a scam, its just not viable for mass scale atm given the high energy cost and use of 'black' hydrogenI'm not even mad any more, I actually just wish I'd pretended I thought hydrogen invalid carriages were the future too and got in on this scam and walked away with a share of that £8million+.
Damn those guys have played a clever long con... and they absolutely will get away with it as long as they just keep saying the really believed it was viable.
if they can develop the technology to get economies of scale for huge volumes of green hydrogen from water and a developed delivery infrastructure it could be viable in the future, maybe 10-15 years
This is a good example of how green hydrogen and fuel cells can work on a small local scale for power generation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCmKAAh-vkE
Dave Hedgehog said:
i dont think its a scam, its just not viable for mass scale atm given the high energy cost and use of 'black' hydrogen
if they can develop the technology to get economies of scale for huge volumes of green hydrogen from water and a developed delivery infrastructure it could be viable in the future, maybe 10-15 years
This is a good example of how green hydrogen and fuel cells can work on a small local scale for power generation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCmKAAh-vkE
Sadly though the Rasa isn't any of those things. It's just made with off the shelf parts and has gone nowhere (possibly literally) in years. It's a dead end.if they can develop the technology to get economies of scale for huge volumes of green hydrogen from water and a developed delivery infrastructure it could be viable in the future, maybe 10-15 years
This is a good example of how green hydrogen and fuel cells can work on a small local scale for power generation
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCmKAAh-vkE
Eventually they will put a battery in that thing and make it an EV. But they will only do that once they have exhaused the hydrogen funding. Because that's when they will start on the EV funding.
https://www.insidermedia.com/news/wales/riversimpl...
Interesting little fuel cell car.
Quite appealing in some ways but they must work harder on some of the styling detail.
I wonder if their strategy to offer these on a contract service basis will actually follow through?
Interesting little fuel cell car.
Quite appealing in some ways but they must work harder on some of the styling detail.
I wonder if their strategy to offer these on a contract service basis will actually follow through?
Love this quote
"We’re focused on delivering convenient and commercially viable hydrogen fuel cell vehicles (FCEVs), as well as seeing a new era of automotive manufacturing in the heart of Wales."
All the convenience of 13 hydrogen pumps in the entire UK, 5 of which are inside the M25..
"We’re focused on delivering convenient and commercially viable hydrogen fuel cell vehicles (FCEVs), as well as seeing a new era of automotive manufacturing in the heart of Wales."
All the convenience of 13 hydrogen pumps in the entire UK, 5 of which are inside the M25..
I read they were looking to produce from 2023.
Is 3 years too little time for sufficient expansion of the hydrogen network in this country?
Failing that, with their strategy seeming to be around contract hiring, and the car being a bit 'urban' in size, would there be mileage in a fleet of cars to hire around London?
That's not considering export to other countries who already have better networks, for example Germany and Japan. Look at Japan's FCEV projections!
First one to mention trade deal can do one! LOL!
Is 3 years too little time for sufficient expansion of the hydrogen network in this country?
Failing that, with their strategy seeming to be around contract hiring, and the car being a bit 'urban' in size, would there be mileage in a fleet of cars to hire around London?
That's not considering export to other countries who already have better networks, for example Germany and Japan. Look at Japan's FCEV projections!
First one to mention trade deal can do one! LOL!
JD said:
It’s simply never going to happen.
No idea who is funding it to get this far.
The tax payer sadly, they have blagged millions in grants No idea who is funding it to get this far.
They don't even have any tech of their own, they are using old hydrogen folklift truck parts which anyone can buy, these were developed so the folklifts produced no fumes indoors years back, they have since been replaced with electric folklifts.
This means the car has a max speed of about 55-60mph and is, well, you've seen it, like some tiny invalid carriage, and they think they can rent these out for £500/month.
But they have been saying all this for around TEN YEARS and have produced nothing new.
Edited by jjwilde on Wednesday 21st October 15:05
Edited by jjwilde on Wednesday 21st October 15:06
What's the particular issue with 'forklift truck' components? Isn't that technology transfer?
https://www.riversimple.com/our-partners-and-colla...
Also re the funding, isn't Tesla currently living off subsidies?
With regards the Japan comment, they're well into little motors, a totally different culture to ours. They have the Kei car category that this might fit. Admittedly I like the general look of the car but certain styling details definitely need a rethink!
Am very interested to understand the criticism, whether it's got good basis or whether some is just personal prejudice.
So, JJ, you reckon they wanted £500 a month? Isn't it actually a £3xx figure and doesn't that include fuel and maintenance?
Still EVs are getting a bit silly aren't they? Wasn't the Volvo circa £1k a month?!! Jeepers!
https://www.riversimple.com/our-partners-and-colla...
Also re the funding, isn't Tesla currently living off subsidies?
With regards the Japan comment, they're well into little motors, a totally different culture to ours. They have the Kei car category that this might fit. Admittedly I like the general look of the car but certain styling details definitely need a rethink!
Am very interested to understand the criticism, whether it's got good basis or whether some is just personal prejudice.
So, JJ, you reckon they wanted £500 a month? Isn't it actually a £3xx figure and doesn't that include fuel and maintenance?
Still EVs are getting a bit silly aren't they? Wasn't the Volvo circa £1k a month?!! Jeepers!
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 21st October 15:36
jjwilde said:
The tax payer sadly, they have blagged millions in grants
I thought that might be the case, one word of Hydrogen and you can smell the grant money pouring in.It's either run by a fantasist who thinks they have a viable product, or someone is just hoovering up other peoples money - I'm not sure which is worse.
jjwilde said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
In the same time period Tesla have made and shipped over ONE MILLION CARS.Riversimple have done nothing (aside from suck up millions in tax payers (our) money).
Quite a lot of taxpayers' money!
They've been around 17 years.
When do you project they'll stop relying on subsidies?
Are you so vocal about that?
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