RE: Pan-European fast charging network plan confirmed
Discussion
I do wonder if there's a looming beta vs VHS scenario.
First mover advantage can be great if it works, but it can also bring you undone if you're on the wrong end of the winning technology. I guess it will be interesting to see how it pans out, though as a consumer sitting back, I'm just waiting to see how things go with:
a. Range
b. "refill" time
c. Vehicle weight
I suspect the first one is okay for a reasonably large number of people (its okay for me), but its the second and third where it falls down for me. I don't want to be waiting more than 5 minutes to refill; can you imagine the queue at a "station"? I also feel the current weight of batteries is too high. When we get better battery tech, and they can strip these EV cars back to the same kind of weight as ICE cars, then I think they'll really be onto a winner.
First mover advantage can be great if it works, but it can also bring you undone if you're on the wrong end of the winning technology. I guess it will be interesting to see how it pans out, though as a consumer sitting back, I'm just waiting to see how things go with:
a. Range
b. "refill" time
c. Vehicle weight
I suspect the first one is okay for a reasonably large number of people (its okay for me), but its the second and third where it falls down for me. I don't want to be waiting more than 5 minutes to refill; can you imagine the queue at a "station"? I also feel the current weight of batteries is too high. When we get better battery tech, and they can strip these EV cars back to the same kind of weight as ICE cars, then I think they'll really be onto a winner.
AW10 said:
Interesting to note that it's the German manufacturers - not a French, Italian, Swedish or British one mentioned. Here's betting the highest percentage will be installed in Germany initially.
I'm amused by the Swedish or British bit. Sweden has no manufacturers as Volvo is Chinese and Saab doesn't exist, while I'm not sure if Morgan or Ariel are ready to invest on such a scale just yet...Well, Elon has achieved his goal with Tesla "to accelerate the advent of sustainable transport by bringing compelling mass market electric cars to market as soon as possible."
Tesla have always said they welcome competition from the existing mainstream manufacturers - hence why they open sourced all their patents back in 2014, allowing any mainstream manufacturer to adopt their technology.
It's just a shame it has taken these mainstream manufacturers so long to catch-on, and worst still that there is still such animosity towards Tesla in the industry that they are choosing to develop their own, all-new charging network, rather than joining forces and accelerating the growth (both in terms of location and charging speed) of the existing network. Tesla already have over 750 supercharger locations and 4,750 supercharging points worldwide: https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/supercharger - why not build on that for the benefit of everyone??
Tesla have always said they welcome competition from the existing mainstream manufacturers - hence why they open sourced all their patents back in 2014, allowing any mainstream manufacturer to adopt their technology.
It's just a shame it has taken these mainstream manufacturers so long to catch-on, and worst still that there is still such animosity towards Tesla in the industry that they are choosing to develop their own, all-new charging network, rather than joining forces and accelerating the growth (both in terms of location and charging speed) of the existing network. Tesla already have over 750 supercharger locations and 4,750 supercharging points worldwide: https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/supercharger - why not build on that for the benefit of everyone??
With regards to several comments about range, charging time, etc., if I can offer some insight experience after 9 months with my Tesla:
- Range is rarely an issue, and I have driven 14,000 miles in 9 months in my Model S, and many others have done much more. To push this theory to the limit, myself and two other teams all in Tesla's took on the Three Peaks Challenge a few weeks ago, to test range within a tight time constraint; we created a website to raise awareness and money for charity, feel free to take a look for more info and a full review: http://www.threepeakszero.com/
- Charging time is not such a big issue; the reason being, you "fill up" less often than in a petrol or diesel ("ICE") vehicle. In an "ICE" vehicle you always have to go out of your way to fill up during a journey; with an EV, you just plug it in at night and wake up with a full charge every morning. Therefore stops at public charging stations are few and far between, generally - I was visiting a petrol station twice a week in my Cayman S, I visit a Supercharger probably once a month in the Tesla.
- Charging time (again) - when you do need to stop to charge, typically it is around the 150-200 mile mark - so after roughly 3-4 hours of driving. I have usually managed to time this with a lunch/dinner stop, so whilst I stop for a half hour/45 minute rest and enjoy my food, the car is merrily charging away - all it takes is some forward planning, then it is actually a more efficient use of time than standing at petrol stations in the rain.
- Running costs are MUCH less with an EV; those 14,000 miles have cost me less than £400 in electricity. To do 14,000 miles in the Porsche would have been around £3,000, in my previous BMW 335D around £2,700 - so around 7x the cost in an ICE over an EV.
- Range is rarely an issue, and I have driven 14,000 miles in 9 months in my Model S, and many others have done much more. To push this theory to the limit, myself and two other teams all in Tesla's took on the Three Peaks Challenge a few weeks ago, to test range within a tight time constraint; we created a website to raise awareness and money for charity, feel free to take a look for more info and a full review: http://www.threepeakszero.com/
- Charging time is not such a big issue; the reason being, you "fill up" less often than in a petrol or diesel ("ICE") vehicle. In an "ICE" vehicle you always have to go out of your way to fill up during a journey; with an EV, you just plug it in at night and wake up with a full charge every morning. Therefore stops at public charging stations are few and far between, generally - I was visiting a petrol station twice a week in my Cayman S, I visit a Supercharger probably once a month in the Tesla.
- Charging time (again) - when you do need to stop to charge, typically it is around the 150-200 mile mark - so after roughly 3-4 hours of driving. I have usually managed to time this with a lunch/dinner stop, so whilst I stop for a half hour/45 minute rest and enjoy my food, the car is merrily charging away - all it takes is some forward planning, then it is actually a more efficient use of time than standing at petrol stations in the rain.
- Running costs are MUCH less with an EV; those 14,000 miles have cost me less than £400 in electricity. To do 14,000 miles in the Porsche would have been around £3,000, in my previous BMW 335D around £2,700 - so around 7x the cost in an ICE over an EV.
Ollywood said:
Cheib said:
"About 400" charging points across Europe ? So they'll be plugging in most of Tank and Rast's network basically! They have 390 Service Stations in Germany http://tank.rast.de/en/
I got very close to buying an ex-Demo Cayenne Hybrid last month....lost my bottle when I realised that a 7kw charger would cost the best part of £1000 to plumb in at home and thought about the charging logistics (if you can't charge them regularly its pointless having one from an economy perspective). With a 7kw charger the car can be charged in an about an hour and a half but the 7kw charging option isn't standard on all Cayenne's. Most cars need 3 plus hours to charge.
So I assume none of the cars currently on the roads will be able to use these higher KW charging stations...which means they'll be worth buttons in three or four years
And I guess very few people charge a hybrid, which for me never made any sense. Carrying two power plants and one fuel tank and batteries. Did help that the mpg figure is a lie for people to buy them. I got very close to buying an ex-Demo Cayenne Hybrid last month....lost my bottle when I realised that a 7kw charger would cost the best part of £1000 to plumb in at home and thought about the charging logistics (if you can't charge them regularly its pointless having one from an economy perspective). With a 7kw charger the car can be charged in an about an hour and a half but the 7kw charging option isn't standard on all Cayenne's. Most cars need 3 plus hours to charge.
So I assume none of the cars currently on the roads will be able to use these higher KW charging stations...which means they'll be worth buttons in three or four years
But yes the Cayenne has a 20 mile range on the Batteries so for my midweek journeys to and from the station it would have been fine ( I could charge at home which would have covered the return journey).....but if you have longer daily journeys without the ability to charge at home and work the economics quickly fall down.
Cheib said:
I got very close to buying an ex-Demo Cayenne Hybrid last month....lost my bottle when I realised that a 7kw charger would cost the best part of £1000 to plumb in at home and thought about the charging logistics
You also know there's an up to 75% government grant available to get a home charging point installed?https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/governme...
big_rob_sydney said:
I do wonder if there's a looming beta vs VHS scenario.
First mover advantage can be great if it works, but it can also bring you undone if you're on the wrong end of the winning technology. I guess it will be interesting to see how it pans out, though as a consumer sitting back, I'm just waiting to see how things go with:
a. Range
b. "refill" time
c. Vehicle weight
I suspect the first one is okay for a reasonably large number of people (its okay for me), but its the second and third where it falls down for me. I don't want to be waiting more than 5 minutes to refill; can you imagine the queue at a "station"? I also feel the current weight of batteries is too high. When we get better battery tech, and they can strip these EV cars back to the same kind of weight as ICE cars, then I think they'll really be onto a winner.
But you're unlikely to be just "waiting" for the car to charge. You'll be inside the services, having a wee, buying a coffee, eating lunch, buying grocieries - whatever people do at service stations before/after they have filled the car up with petrol.First mover advantage can be great if it works, but it can also bring you undone if you're on the wrong end of the winning technology. I guess it will be interesting to see how it pans out, though as a consumer sitting back, I'm just waiting to see how things go with:
a. Range
b. "refill" time
c. Vehicle weight
I suspect the first one is okay for a reasonably large number of people (its okay for me), but its the second and third where it falls down for me. I don't want to be waiting more than 5 minutes to refill; can you imagine the queue at a "station"? I also feel the current weight of batteries is too high. When we get better battery tech, and they can strip these EV cars back to the same kind of weight as ICE cars, then I think they'll really be onto a winner.
Charging time are going to be a huge issue in the future. My brother has a tesla in Switzerland and he's had to queue a few times to charge and when it' can be 30-45 mins waiting time... I'm sure there will be a few charge rage incidents coming especially when the model 3 comes out and jag and others.
And apart from Tesla doing fast charging stations who else is going to take challenge here in the U.K. I'm sure they are all waiting for subsidies.
And apart from Tesla doing fast charging stations who else is going to take challenge here in the U.K. I'm sure they are all waiting for subsidies.
suffolk009 said:
But you're unlikely to be just "waiting" for the car to charge. You'll be inside the services, having a wee, buying a coffee, eating lunch, buying grocieries - whatever people do at service stations before/after they have filled the car up with petrol.
When I go on a long trip somewhere, yes, I completely agree with you.But when I'm just commuting or daily driving, my only interaction with the petrol station is just drive in, fill up, and then go. For a typical daily driver scenario, I think its not quite the same.
Mike_C said:
With regards to several comments about range, charging time, etc., if I can offer some insight experience after 9 months with my Tesla:
- Range is rarely an issue, and I have driven 14,000 miles in 9 months in my Model S, and many others have done much more. To push this theory to the limit, myself and two other teams all in Tesla's took on the Three Peaks Challenge a few weeks ago, to test range within a tight time constraint; we created a website to raise awareness and money for charity, feel free to take a look for more info and a full review: http://www.threepeakszero.com/
- Charging time is not such a big issue; the reason being, you "fill up" less often than in a petrol or diesel ("ICE") vehicle. In an "ICE" vehicle you always have to go out of your way to fill up during a journey; with an EV, you just plug it in at night and wake up with a full charge every morning. Therefore stops at public charging stations are few and far between, generally - I was visiting a petrol station twice a week in my Cayman S, I visit a Supercharger probably once a month in the Tesla.
- Charging time (again) - when you do need to stop to charge, typically it is around the 150-200 mile mark - so after roughly 3-4 hours of driving. I have usually managed to time this with a lunch/dinner stop, so whilst I stop for a half hour/45 minute rest and enjoy my food, the car is merrily charging away - all it takes is some forward planning, then it is actually a more efficient use of time than standing at petrol stations in the rain.
- Running costs are MUCH less with an EV; those 14,000 miles have cost me less than £400 in electricity. To do 14,000 miles in the Porsche would have been around £3,000, in my previous BMW 335D around £2,700 - so around 7x the cost in an ICE over an EV.
I guess if you have the option to charge either at home or at work, then that would be best. Not everyone has that option though.- Range is rarely an issue, and I have driven 14,000 miles in 9 months in my Model S, and many others have done much more. To push this theory to the limit, myself and two other teams all in Tesla's took on the Three Peaks Challenge a few weeks ago, to test range within a tight time constraint; we created a website to raise awareness and money for charity, feel free to take a look for more info and a full review: http://www.threepeakszero.com/
- Charging time is not such a big issue; the reason being, you "fill up" less often than in a petrol or diesel ("ICE") vehicle. In an "ICE" vehicle you always have to go out of your way to fill up during a journey; with an EV, you just plug it in at night and wake up with a full charge every morning. Therefore stops at public charging stations are few and far between, generally - I was visiting a petrol station twice a week in my Cayman S, I visit a Supercharger probably once a month in the Tesla.
- Charging time (again) - when you do need to stop to charge, typically it is around the 150-200 mile mark - so after roughly 3-4 hours of driving. I have usually managed to time this with a lunch/dinner stop, so whilst I stop for a half hour/45 minute rest and enjoy my food, the car is merrily charging away - all it takes is some forward planning, then it is actually a more efficient use of time than standing at petrol stations in the rain.
- Running costs are MUCH less with an EV; those 14,000 miles have cost me less than £400 in electricity. To do 14,000 miles in the Porsche would have been around £3,000, in my previous BMW 335D around £2,700 - so around 7x the cost in an ICE over an EV.
See above for charge time.
Mike_C said:
- Charging time is not such a big issue; the reason being, you "fill up" less often than in a petrol or diesel ("ICE") vehicle. In an "ICE" vehicle you always have to go out of your way to fill up during a journey; with an EV, you just plug it in at night and wake up with a full charge every morning. Therefore stops at public charging stations are few and far between, generally - I was visiting a petrol station twice a week in my Cayman S, I visit a Supercharger probably once a month in the Tesla.
and try living in terraced housing and charging at night, not gonna happen. Range isn't a problem for most people, the charging solutions in the current time and close future are too limited, i'd gladly pick up an EV when that's sorted out, but its going to be a while
Edited by rampageturke on Thursday 1st December 15:15
Charging time are going to be a huge issue in the future. My brother has a tesla in Switzerland and he's had to queue a few times to charge and when it' can be 30-45 mins waiting time... I'm sure there will be a few charge rage incidents coming especially when the model 3 comes out and jag and others.
And apart from Tesla doing fast charging stations who else is going to take challenge here in the U.K. I'm sure they are all waiting for subsidies.
And apart from Tesla doing fast charging stations who else is going to take challenge here in the U.K. I'm sure they are all waiting for subsidies.
Ollywood said:
Charging time are going to be a huge issue in the future. My brother has a tesla in Switzerland and he's had to queue a few times to charge and when it' can be 30-45 mins waiting time... I'm sure there will be a few charge rage incidents coming especially when the model 3 comes out and jag and others.
And apart from Tesla doing fast charging stations who else is going to take challenge here in the U.K. I'm sure they are all waiting for subsidies.
Then EVs might not be a good fit for his needs, current criteria for buying an EV, should include having a charging point at home/work, a return commute within the range of the car and minimal long journeys, if he is regularly having to wait, he is doing it wrong.And apart from Tesla doing fast charging stations who else is going to take challenge here in the U.K. I'm sure they are all waiting for subsidies.
As the naysayers keep complaining, "I drive 700 miles every day to the middle of nowhere, EVs are crap"
Has anyone mentioned the longevity of the battery? Ive read an 85KWh battery is USD 12k so £10k here. Even if the battery lasted 6-7 years that must negate all fuel savings or a massive part of it. This is why I think we are a very long way off a significant percentage of the market being EV. The battery costs need to be dramatically brought down or tied into a cheap lease.
caseys said:
Cheib said:
I got very close to buying an ex-Demo Cayenne Hybrid last month....lost my bottle when I realised that a 7kw charger would cost the best part of £1000 to plumb in at home and thought about the charging logistics
You also know there's an up to 75% government grant available to get a home charging point installed?https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/governme...
Jerry Can said:
On the positive side, combustion engined vehicles might become more extreme as these will taxed heavily and will be for the rich only;and used for recreation. .
I disagree, I think they will just give up taxing them as it's not worth the hassle, a bit like how classic cars need no tax/mot.Gassing Station | EV and Alternative Fuels | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff