RE: Pan-European fast charging network plan confirmed
Discussion
Burwood said:
Has anyone mentioned the longevity of the battery?
Has anyone mentioned the longevity of a conventional ICE powertrain??ie, modern ICE powertrains are, broadly speaking, designed for 10 years / 150Kmiles, which is why a 10 year old, say 320d with 150k miles on the clock is effectively worthless. That car is written off by any number of individual component failures (turbo, DMF, HP pump, injectors, DPF, etc etc) and those parts are difficult to change, and as the whole engine will be significantly worn, pretty pointless to change.
On an EV, the battery is easy to change (and recycle!) and the rest of the powertrain will be in very good condition indeed, only having a few moving parts, so stick a "reconditioned" battery in your 10yo 'lecy car, and off you go!
jamoor said:
Don't forget there is also money to be made with charging infrastructure. There will be a time when you go to charge your car and it deducts the money off your credit card as it will know exactly who you are and how much electricity you took.
Errr... Thats exactly how its been working for a few years now. Did you think the charge points took cash?jamoor said:
I thought you had to register with some sort of card or something?
I was thinking seamless, you just plug it in and unplug it and carry on.
They all have the ability to do that now but chose not to. Cant see it coming any time soon as PAYG doesn't earn them enough unless the £KW is very high circa Ecotricity.I was thinking seamless, you just plug it in and unplug it and carry on.
IMO the Government have royally f
ked up the role out of charge infrastructure as people like David Martell - CEO Charge Master have their fat little fingers in all the pies and all they care about it their bottom line. I hope these manufacture schemes put the likes of CM out on their arse.
ex1 said:
They all have the ability to do that now but chose not to. Cant see it coming any time soon as PAYG doesn't earn them enough unless the £KW is very high circa Ecotricity.
IMO the Government have royally fked up the role out of charge infrastructure as people like David Martell - CEO Charge Master have their fat little fingers in all the pies and all they care about it their bottom line.
I hope these manufacture schemes put the likes of CM out on their arse.
I don't have a problem with CM .. small monthly fee then 10.8p/kWh. I just wished they had more rapids. IMO the Government have royally f
ked up the role out of charge infrastructure as people like David Martell - CEO Charge Master have their fat little fingers in all the pies and all they care about it their bottom line. I hope these manufacture schemes put the likes of CM out on their arse.
What's more of an issue is Ecotricity's monopoly on motorway charging - that could do with some compeition.
modeller said:
I don't have a problem with CM .. small monthly fee then 10.8p/kWh. I just wished they had more rapids.
What's more of an issue is Ecotricity's monopoly on motorway charging - that could do with some compeition.
CM have taken vast amounts of government cash to expand their network. They have exploited the lack of credible competition and civil servants desire to protect their own arse. To see the future under a CM monopoly take a look at what they did in Milton Keynes before they realised they couldn't get the next £5m unless the stopped taking the piss.What's more of an issue is Ecotricity's monopoly on motorway charging - that could do with some compeition.
If CM get their way EV charging will cost the same as ICE if not more.
CM are greedy b
ds will no interest in further the uptake of EV unless its on their terms. Unlike CM Ecotricity have invested huge amounts of their own cash into further the uptake of EV. They are simply trying to recoupe their investment. CM & Martell have done nothing but take ££££££.
ex1 said:
They all have the ability to do that now but chose not to. Cant see it coming any time soon as PAYG doesn't earn them enough unless the £KW is very high circa Ecotricity.
IMO the Government have royally fked up the role out of charge infrastructure as people like David Martell - CEO Charge Master have their fat little fingers in all the pies and all they care about it their bottom line.
I hope these manufacture schemes put the likes of CM out on their arse.
Yes that guy looks like a tIMO the Government have royally f
ked up the role out of charge infrastructure as people like David Martell - CEO Charge Master have their fat little fingers in all the pies and all they care about it their bottom line. I hope these manufacture schemes put the likes of CM out on their arse.
t.I'm sure if the automakers cooperate they will crush him very quickly.
Burwood said:
Has anyone mentioned the longevity of the battery? Ive read an 85KWh battery is USD 12k so £10k here. Even if the battery lasted 6-7 years that must negate all fuel savings or a massive part of it. This is why I think we are a very long way off a significant percentage of the market being EV. The battery costs need to be dramatically brought down or tied into a cheap lease.
They are warrantied for 8 years, and battery prices are dropping. If its warranties for 8 years then you can expect thenpm to last 10+ years.Its also worth noting that early hybrid batteries can be refurbed for a few hundred pounds rather then the 1000's everyone quotes for replacement. At 10 years olds thats the route you would be going down.
When you look at what things like a clutch, or a fuel pump on a modern ICE car cost, then that seems very reasonable.
[quote=98elise]
They are warrantied for 8 years, and battery prices are dropping. If its warranties for 8 years then you can expect thenpm to last 10+ years.
Its also worth noting that early hybrid batteries can be refurbed for a few hundred pounds rather then the 1000's everyone quotes for replacement. At 10 years olds thats the route you would be going down.
When you look at what things like a clutch, or a fuel pump on a modern ICE car cost, then that seems very reasonable.[/
Good points. Thanks
They are warrantied for 8 years, and battery prices are dropping. If its warranties for 8 years then you can expect thenpm to last 10+ years.
Its also worth noting that early hybrid batteries can be refurbed for a few hundred pounds rather then the 1000's everyone quotes for replacement. At 10 years olds thats the route you would be going down.
When you look at what things like a clutch, or a fuel pump on a modern ICE car cost, then that seems very reasonable.[/
Good points. Thanks
Burwood said:
Has anyone mentioned the longevity of the battery? Ive read an 85KWh battery is USD 12k so £10k here. Even if the battery lasted 6-7 years that must negate all fuel savings or a massive part of it. This is why I think we are a very long way off a significant percentage of the market being EV. The battery costs need to be dramatically brought down or tied into a cheap lease.
I believe battery technology is already at a point where this isn't an issue; Tesla provide an 8 year/unlimited mileage warranty on the battery and powertrain, and within that there is a 2% degradation per year allowable. However, high-mileage and early adopter (MY2012) owners in the US are not reporting anywhere near that level of battery degradation, which is good news. Obviously some of this will be how you care for you battery (not charging to 100% every night, and not running it down to 0% regularly), but that's no different from things like not redlining your engine from cold.
ex1 said:
CM have taken vast amounts of government cash to expand their network. They have exploited the lack of credible competition and civil servants desire to protect their own arse. To see the future under a CM monopoly take a look at what they did in Milton Keynes before they realised they couldn't get the next £5m unless the stopped taking the piss.
If CM get their way EV charging will cost the same as ICE if not more.
CM are greedy bds will no interest in further the uptake of EV unless its on their terms.
Unlike CM Ecotricity have invested huge amounts of their own cash into further the uptake of EV. They are simply trying to recoupe their investment. CM & Martell have done nothing but take ££££££.
I wouldn't put the EH on a pedestal. Too expensive, unreliable and they don't like competition. Didn't they get money from Nissan / Tax payers?If CM get their way EV charging will cost the same as ICE if not more.
CM are greedy b
ds will no interest in further the uptake of EV unless its on their terms. Unlike CM Ecotricity have invested huge amounts of their own cash into further the uptake of EV. They are simply trying to recoupe their investment. CM & Martell have done nothing but take ££££££.
This new network has to provide Tesla levels of service and convenient locations (tough when the EH will block you from service stations) - JLR need to join too.
Jerry Can said:
the future of the car industry is is about to go in two ways.
Manufacturers' mainstays of production - things that keep the volume up and the plants fully operational, will be building 'mobility solutions':- autonomous drive, EV's using open source software. The scenario in 2040 will be that 'mobility solution' ownership will be low to non-existent, instead you will book your transportation and it will arrive at your home at the agreed time. You will then type in the destination into the centre console, grab the 'dead mans handle' and it will drive you to your pre-programmed drop off point. Large depots full of recharging EV's will be required by fleets to service this need.
The issue the car industry faces is - if a customer won't be driving it, will he care what he gets into? As you e-book your mobility solution, will you care if it a Kia, Ford or BMW? Transport will be about what the inside of the EV is like, what features it has, rather than how fast it goes.
On the positive side, combustion engined vehicles might become more extreme as these will taxed heavily and will be for the rich only;and used for recreation. So high output, sports cars will be the brand leaders, hoping to influence people's choice of mobility solution.
Every aspect of that sounds grim. Manufacturers' mainstays of production - things that keep the volume up and the plants fully operational, will be building 'mobility solutions':- autonomous drive, EV's using open source software. The scenario in 2040 will be that 'mobility solution' ownership will be low to non-existent, instead you will book your transportation and it will arrive at your home at the agreed time. You will then type in the destination into the centre console, grab the 'dead mans handle' and it will drive you to your pre-programmed drop off point. Large depots full of recharging EV's will be required by fleets to service this need.
The issue the car industry faces is - if a customer won't be driving it, will he care what he gets into? As you e-book your mobility solution, will you care if it a Kia, Ford or BMW? Transport will be about what the inside of the EV is like, what features it has, rather than how fast it goes.
On the positive side, combustion engined vehicles might become more extreme as these will taxed heavily and will be for the rich only;and used for recreation. So high output, sports cars will be the brand leaders, hoping to influence people's choice of mobility solution.
Imagine paying for a car to turn up and take you to work every day. The car that's just been used by some guy to get home from a heavy night out and it's now full of vomit and there's poo on the seats.
It's taking all of the worst parts of public transport and giving you no option but to use it.
This shared ownership of autonomous vehicles Utopia, what a load of b
ks.. modeller said:
ex1 said:
CM have taken vast amounts of government cash to expand their network. They have exploited the lack of credible competition and civil servants desire to protect their own arse. To see the future under a CM monopoly take a look at what they did in Milton Keynes before they realised they couldn't get the next £5m unless the stopped taking the piss.
If CM get their way EV charging will cost the same as ICE if not more.
CM are greedy bds will no interest in further the uptake of EV unless its on their terms.
Unlike CM Ecotricity have invested huge amounts of their own cash into further the uptake of EV. They are simply trying to recoupe their investment. CM & Martell have done nothing but take ££££££.
I wouldn't put the EH on a pedestal. Too expensive, unreliable and they don't like competition. Didn't they get money from Nissan / Tax payers?If CM get their way EV charging will cost the same as ICE if not more.
CM are greedy b
ds will no interest in further the uptake of EV unless its on their terms. Unlike CM Ecotricity have invested huge amounts of their own cash into further the uptake of EV. They are simply trying to recoupe their investment. CM & Martell have done nothing but take ££££££.
This new network has to provide Tesla levels of service and convenient locations (tough when the EH will block you from service stations) - JLR need to join too.
And Tesla.. the free for life only a, there's been next to no new infrastructure for a year yet lots more cars so queues, and b, new cars will not have free for life charging and the pricing will be competitive agajbst petrol.
And finally, these charging points are all only slightly cheaper than petrol, but only pay 5% tax v petrols 70%. The government aren't going to take that loss of revenue for long?
In the end, the only way for these networks to be sustainable is if there's a commercial opportunity for operators without the need for subsidies. It doesn't really bother me if the price of a charge is close to other fuels - the major operator cost is not the electricity but space occupation. High speed is therefore good as people will need to spend less time at a station, and people will have to wait for a shorter time to get a charge. I imagine that in the end we'll have pricing based on time of the day.
As an EV owner I don't use public charging that often but have a strong desire for a broader network for when I do want to go. Here in Switzerland the network (DC / non Tesla) is only now starting to appear. I realistically can't get much out of the Zurich conurbation if I wanted to due to lack of options. If I want to venture into nearby Germany I'm totally out of luck. If the density of charging options was similar to petrol stations long journeys wouldn't need planning. That will come, and probably quite soon but Tesla has shown that a developed network is a key factor for EV sales. Here Tesla will probably sell 4 or 5X the amount of EVs as the next biggest manufacturer this year.
As an EV owner I don't use public charging that often but have a strong desire for a broader network for when I do want to go. Here in Switzerland the network (DC / non Tesla) is only now starting to appear. I realistically can't get much out of the Zurich conurbation if I wanted to due to lack of options. If I want to venture into nearby Germany I'm totally out of luck. If the density of charging options was similar to petrol stations long journeys wouldn't need planning. That will come, and probably quite soon but Tesla has shown that a developed network is a key factor for EV sales. Here Tesla will probably sell 4 or 5X the amount of EVs as the next biggest manufacturer this year.
In the end, the only way for these networks to be sustainable is if there's a commercial opportunity for operators without the need for subsidies. It doesn't really bother me if the price of a charge is close to other fuels - the major operator cost is not the electricity but space occupation. High speed is therefore good as people will need to spend less time at a station, and people will have to wait for a shorter time to get a charge. I imagine that in the end we'll have pricing based on time of the day.
As an EV owner I don't use public charging that often but have a strong desire for a broader network for when I do want to go. Here in Switzerland the network (DC / non Tesla) is only now starting to appear. I realistically can't get much out of the Zurich conurbation if I wanted to due to lack of options. If I want to venture into nearby Germany I'm totally out of luck. If the density of charging options was similar to petrol stations long journeys wouldn't need planning. That will come, and probably quite soon but Tesla has shown that a developed network is a key factor for EV sales. Here Tesla will probably sell 4 or 5X the amount of EVs as the next biggest manufacturer this year.
As an EV owner I don't use public charging that often but have a strong desire for a broader network for when I do want to go. Here in Switzerland the network (DC / non Tesla) is only now starting to appear. I realistically can't get much out of the Zurich conurbation if I wanted to due to lack of options. If I want to venture into nearby Germany I'm totally out of luck. If the density of charging options was similar to petrol stations long journeys wouldn't need planning. That will come, and probably quite soon but Tesla has shown that a developed network is a key factor for EV sales. Here Tesla will probably sell 4 or 5X the amount of EVs as the next biggest manufacturer this year.
MarshPhantom said:
Why do people care about electric cars?
No sign of running out of fuel yet.
Less mechanical parts = more reliable in theory.No sign of running out of fuel yet.
More efficient, cleaner, less noise, faster, have two engines in one car so if one breaks you aren't stranded, easier to integrate self driving technology etc, no servicing, yada yada
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