Electric cars/hybrids - a dead end?
Discussion
bodhi said:
600km of charge in 5 minutes for a similar price to a regular ICE car? With the pace battery technology is moving at the moment, we might be there by, I dunno, 2050?
As I said, I don't see ICE going anywhere soon. Which is nice, as I've got to admit, BEV's bore the living crap out of me.
Fast charging? Solved in the next 5 years. Just you see.As I said, I don't see ICE going anywhere soon. Which is nice, as I've got to admit, BEV's bore the living crap out of me.
Trabi601 said:
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The government have just passed legislation that will enable them to force both Hydrogen and Electric point fitment at all major service stations.They're doing this as the hydrogen issue is chicken and egg - without filling points, the cars can't be sold, but you can't have filling points until you have cars on the road. So they're going to force the issue and the investment required.
Has anyone done the calculations to see what kind of electric supply would be needed to recharge 10 electric cars, all at the same time, with enough charge to travel 400 miles, in 5 minutes? I can see that may be a little challenging, even if someone invents a battery tech. which could do this.
Destination charging, where you charge your car wherever you park it, you know at the Mall, Office,or your home will be the primary points for charging, not going to a dedicated fuel station.
Nobody is saying that EVs will replace all ICE vehicles over the net 20-30 years, just most of them.
Mass market hydrogen fueled cars is simply not going to happen, the horse and buggy has a better chance of making a comeback.
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So instead the taxpayers get to fund the guy who founded PayPal's wet dream instead? While also giving subsidies to people spending 100K on a company car? Doesn't sound much of a better deal, so if we're funding one future option I don't have an issue with finding the other - We don't want to get 10 years down the road and find a massive gotcha that makes ev's unviable now do we? And what is anthropomorphic climate change when it's at home? I'll assume you mean anthropogenic?
bodhi said:
DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted.
So instead the taxpayers get to fund the guy who founded PayPal's wet dream instead? While also giving subsidies to people spending 100K on a company car? Doesn't sound much of a better deal, so if we're funding one future option I don't have an issue with finding the other - We don't want to get 10 years down the road and find a massive gotcha that makes ev's unviable now do we? And what is anthropomorphic climate change when it's at home? I'll assume you mean anthropogenic?
Personally I don't have quick refills as a must have feature (and I do 30k miles a year). If I could fill my ICE car at home I would. Having to go to a special building to fill/charge seems the worse option of the two. I wouldn't by a phone or laptop that could only be changed in special shops.
98elise said:
Nobody says there should be only one option. Its only hydrogen that should be dismissed as its massively flawed on every level. If you need vehicle that needs quick refills then choose one of the already available liquid or gas options which will run on a conventional ICE engine.
Personally I don't have quick refills as a must have feature (and I do 30k miles a year). If I could fill my ICE car at home I would. Having to go to a special building to fill/charge seems the worse option of the two. I wouldn't by a phone or laptop that could only be changed in special shops.
The existing liquid and gas options are being legislated against, as governments want effectively zero emission vehicles at the point of use.Personally I don't have quick refills as a must have feature (and I do 30k miles a year). If I could fill my ICE car at home I would. Having to go to a special building to fill/charge seems the worse option of the two. I wouldn't by a phone or laptop that could only be changed in special shops.
And you're still assuming that a majority of road users have the capability for home charging and won't run out of charge during the day. (I'd say at least half the population of the village where I live cannot do this as they live in terraced houses / cottages and park on the street - not always outside their own home, either).
Whilst this is currently being covered by ICE - we're back to the first point, that ICE is being legislated out of existence, so there will be a need to replace it with another 'clean at the point of use' fuel source.
Trabi601 said:
The existing liquid and gas options are being legislated against, as governments want effectively zero emission vehicles at the point of use.
And you're still assuming that a majority of road users have the capability for home charging and won't run out of charge during the day. (I'd say at least half the population of the village where I live cannot do this as they live in terraced houses / cottages and park on the street - not always outside their own home, either).
Whilst this is currently being covered by ICE - we're back to the first point, that ICE is being legislated out of existence, so there will be a need to replace it with another 'clean at the point of use' fuel source.
Legislation is an entirely different issue, the Govt will never willingly reduce their take from motor vehicles whatever fuel is being used. which is why we will probably move to a mileage based taxation system in the future.And you're still assuming that a majority of road users have the capability for home charging and won't run out of charge during the day. (I'd say at least half the population of the village where I live cannot do this as they live in terraced houses / cottages and park on the street - not always outside their own home, either).
Whilst this is currently being covered by ICE - we're back to the first point, that ICE is being legislated out of existence, so there will be a need to replace it with another 'clean at the point of use' fuel source.
"run out during the day" is not a thing, cars don't use fuel if they aren't being used.
If you live in one of the few rural locations in the UK where the majority don't have off-road parking then fine, the vast majority of car owners do have at home and or work. It's not a rational argument that "because EVs are not ideal for a small % of road users then they can't succeed in becoming critical mass, there are people out there who still commute by horse.
babatunde said:
Legislation is an entirely different issue, the Govt will never willingly reduce their take from motor vehicles whatever fuel is being used. which is why we will probably move to a mileage based taxation system in the future.
"run out during the day" is not a thing, cars don't use fuel if they aren't being used.
If you live in one of the few rural locations in the UK where the majority don't have off-road parking then fine, the vast majority of car owners do have at home and or work. It's not a rational argument that "because EVs are not ideal for a small % of road users then they can't succeed in becoming critical mass, there are people out there who still commute by horse.
I see 'vast majority' often quoted. A 'vast majority' don't have access to a charge point either at home or at work or in both places."run out during the day" is not a thing, cars don't use fuel if they aren't being used.
If you live in one of the few rural locations in the UK where the majority don't have off-road parking then fine, the vast majority of car owners do have at home and or work. It's not a rational argument that "because EVs are not ideal for a small % of road users then they can't succeed in becoming critical mass, there are people out there who still commute by horse.
Many people live in apartments, flats, terraced houses, ie. places where you don't have a dedicated parking space or access to a charger. You may have allocated parking in a flat or apartment, but you'd then need the freeholder to invest in charging infrastructure, which they may or may not be willing to do. Same in a workplace car park - if you have 100 spaces, who pays for 100 chargers, and who pays for upgrading the power supply to the car park to charge all those cars?
And what do people do who spend a lot of time on the road, living out of a bag, in hotels during the week? - how do they charge up?
The opinions in this discussion have largely been from people who can charge up easily at home, afford a £60k car with decent electric range, and never drive further than the battery capacity in a day.
We need a quickly refillable solution, with near zero emissions at the point of use - in addition to BEVs which will be the solution for those with short commutes and access to charging at home.
Range extending technology will be very important as part of the solution - hence manufacturers and governments investing serious cash in technologies to provide this.
babatunde said:
Trabi601 said:
The existing liquid and gas options are being legislated against, as governments want effectively zero emission vehicles at the point of use.
And you're still assuming that a majority of road users have the capability for home charging and won't run out of charge during the day. (I'd say at least half the population of the village where I live cannot do this as they live in terraced houses / cottages and park on the street - not always outside their own home, either).
Whilst this is currently being covered by ICE - we're back to the first point, that ICE is being legislated out of existence, so there will be a need to replace it with another 'clean at the point of use' fuel source.
Legislation is an entirely different issue, the Govt will never willingly reduce their take from motor vehicles whatever fuel is being used. which is why we will probably move to a mileage based taxation system in the future.And you're still assuming that a majority of road users have the capability for home charging and won't run out of charge during the day. (I'd say at least half the population of the village where I live cannot do this as they live in terraced houses / cottages and park on the street - not always outside their own home, either).
Whilst this is currently being covered by ICE - we're back to the first point, that ICE is being legislated out of existence, so there will be a need to replace it with another 'clean at the point of use' fuel source.
"run out during the day" is not a thing, cars don't use fuel if they aren't being used.
If you live in one of the few rural locations in the UK where the majority don't have off-road parking then fine, the vast majority of car owners do have at home and or work. It's not a rational argument that "because EVs are not ideal for a small % of road users then they can't succeed in becoming critical mass, there are people out there who still commute by horse.
The only interesting part of your post is that you say people still commute by horse. Really? Any examples?
Commute:
"travel some distance between one's home and place of work on a regular basis.
"he commuted from Corby to Kentish Town"
synonyms: travel to and from work, travel to and fro, travel back and forth, come and go, shuttle
"they commute on a stuffy overcrowded train"
Trabi601 said:
babatunde said:
Legislation is an entirely different issue, the Govt will never willingly reduce their take from motor vehicles whatever fuel is being used. which is why we will probably move to a mileage based taxation system in the future.
"run out during the day" is not a thing, cars don't use fuel if they aren't being used.
If you live in one of the few rural locations in the UK where the majority don't have off-road parking then fine, the vast majority of car owners do have at home and or work. It's not a rational argument that "because EVs are not ideal for a small % of road users then they can't succeed in becoming critical mass, there are people out there who still commute by horse.
I see 'vast majority' often quoted. A 'vast majority' don't have access to a charge point either at home or at work or in both places."run out during the day" is not a thing, cars don't use fuel if they aren't being used.
If you live in one of the few rural locations in the UK where the majority don't have off-road parking then fine, the vast majority of car owners do have at home and or work. It's not a rational argument that "because EVs are not ideal for a small % of road users then they can't succeed in becoming critical mass, there are people out there who still commute by horse.
Many people live in apartments, flats, terraced houses, ie. places where you don't have a dedicated parking space or access to a charger. You may have allocated parking in a flat or apartment, but you'd then need the freeholder to invest in charging infrastructure, which they may or may not be willing to do. Same in a workplace car park - if you have 100 spaces, who pays for 100 chargers, and who pays for upgrading the power supply to the car park to charge all those cars?
And what do people do who spend a lot of time on the road, living out of a bag, in hotels during the week? - how do they charge up?
The opinions in this discussion have largely been from people who can charge up easily at home, afford a £60k car with decent electric range, and never drive further than the battery capacity in a day.
We need a quickly refillable solution, with near zero emissions at the point of use - in addition to BEVs which will be the solution for those with short commutes and access to charging at home.
Range extending technology will be very important as part of the solution - hence manufacturers and governments investing serious cash in technologies to provide this.
You don't actually need chargers, you just need a power supply if the car has an on board charger (lthe tesla).
Tesla (and many other manufacturers) a also rolling out autonomous driving. Tesla also have a snake charger that can automatically attach its self to the car. They have said that within the next year they will demonstrate a drive from LA to NY with no driver input, including recharging along the way.
By the time EV's become common its quite possible you car will bugger off in the night and recharge its self at a super charger.
Edited by 98elise on Saturday 4th March 08:23
Trabi601 said:
babatunde said:
Legislation is an entirely different issue, the Govt will never willingly reduce their take from motor vehicles whatever fuel is being used. which is why we will probably move to a mileage based taxation system in the future.
"run out during the day" is not a thing, cars don't use fuel if they aren't being used.
If you live in one of the few rural locations in the UK where the majority don't have off-road parking then fine, the vast majority of car owners do have at home and or work. It's not a rational argument that "because EVs are not ideal for a small % of road users then they can't succeed in becoming critical mass, there are people out there who still commute by horse.
I see 'vast majority' often quoted. A 'vast majority' don't have access to a charge point either at home or at work or in both places."run out during the day" is not a thing, cars don't use fuel if they aren't being used.
If you live in one of the few rural locations in the UK where the majority don't have off-road parking then fine, the vast majority of car owners do have at home and or work. It's not a rational argument that "because EVs are not ideal for a small % of road users then they can't succeed in becoming critical mass, there are people out there who still commute by horse.
Many people live in apartments, flats, terraced houses, ie. places where you don't have a dedicated parking space or access to a charger. You may have allocated parking in a flat or apartment, but you'd then need the freeholder to invest in charging infrastructure, which they may or may not be willing to do. Same in a workplace car park - if you have 100 spaces, who pays for 100 chargers, and who pays for upgrading the power supply to the car park to charge all those cars?
And what do people do who spend a lot of time on the road, living out of a bag, in hotels during the week? - how do they charge up?
The opinions in this discussion have largely been from people who can charge up easily at home, afford a £60k car with decent electric range, and never drive further than the battery capacity in a day.
We need a quickly refillable solution, with near zero emissions at the point of use - in addition to BEVs which will be the solution for those with short commutes and access to charging at home.
Range extending technology will be very important as part of the solution - hence manufacturers and governments investing serious cash in technologies to provide this.
from page 41
"Parking was not necessarily an issue for all households because 23% did not have a car. In general, the more cars a household had, the more likely they were to have a garage or other off street parking"
70% of households with 1 car have off road parking.
that % goes up the more cars are in a household.
Then that old bearbug about journeys The average car trip length in the UK increased by 12% from 6.4 miles in 1995/97 to 7.1 miles in 2013. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa...
Lies, damm lies and statistics you might say in which case quote where you are getting figures from that dispute these basic facts.
You do realise that off road parking covers all forms of parking not on a road, so it's a deeply skewed and flawed figure to use?
And when I'm sitting in a traffic queue that's longer than the average journey, I'll take comfort from the survey results which prove that I'm in a minority group!
And when I'm sitting in a traffic queue that's longer than the average journey, I'll take comfort from the survey results which prove that I'm in a minority group!
Trabi601 said:
You do realise that off road parking covers all forms of parking not on a road, so it's a deeply skewed and flawed figure to use?
And when I'm sitting in a traffic queue that's longer than the average journey, I'll take comfort from the survey results which prove that I'm in a minority group!
I've got nothing, I'm done, you win and I'm going to put down my hydrogen powered car deposit /sAnd when I'm sitting in a traffic queue that's longer than the average journey, I'll take comfort from the survey results which prove that I'm in a minority group!
Physics you disagree with, statistics are of no relevance, seems you're determined to disagree for the sake of disagreeing.
Hopefully some more open minds would have gained from this discussion.
Edited by babatunde on Sunday 5th March 09:15
babatunde said:
Trabi601 said:
You do realise that off road parking covers all forms of parking not on a road, so it's a deeply skewed and flawed figure to use?
And when I'm sitting in a traffic queue that's longer than the average journey, I'll take comfort from the survey results which prove that I'm in a minority group!
I've got nothing, I'm done, you win and I'm going to put down you hydrogen powered car deposit /sAnd when I'm sitting in a traffic queue that's longer than the average journey, I'll take comfort from the survey results which prove that I'm in a minority group!
Physics you disagree with, statistics are of no relevance, seems you're determined to disagree for the sake of disagreeing.
Hopefully some more open minds would have gained from this discussion.
Fossil fuels are the past, they'll be with us for a while yet, but we need a clean at the point of use range extender. All the industry money is currently going towards fuel cell range extending.
It seems only one of us is blinkered, and it's not the person who can foresee the need for a clean range extending technology to compliment BEVs.
(And I've never denied that the current hydrogen plant isn't the answer - but that we are relying on the future developments in catalyst technology to make it work in an efficient way - predictions are for 60% efficiency if current research comes through - this is within 10% of BEV efficiency, at which point hydrogen starts to make sense. It has taken batteries over 100 years to get to a point where they work for some people some of the time, in 20-30 years, we may be laughing at all those battery powered cars as a technological dead end, just as we are about to do with diesel today)
Edited by Trabi601 on Saturday 4th March 16:49
Trabi601 said:
I see 'vast majority' often quoted. A 'vast majority' don't have access to a charge point either at home or at work or in both places.
And yet the majority of these terraced houses will have streetlights along the road, and offices have lighting too.So the electricity is there, it's accessible. There's no need for a major innovation or redesign, just an investment in infrastructure and a change in mentality (I.e. some courtesy when using electric from ICE owners).
Trabi601 said:
Fossil fuels are the past, they'll be with us for a while yet, but we need a clean at the point of use range extender. All the industry money is currently going towards fuel cell range extending.
There is no way that hydrogen is going to replace petrol or diesel unless we find a way of breaking water into hydrogen and oxygen with almost no energy requirement. This fails physics as we understand it today. The idea of messing around with hydrogen infrastructure when battery does almost everything hydrogen does and with pre-existing petrol infrastructure doing everything else is a technological dead end. Betamax was better than VHS and died quickly. If we were still on horses and we decided to go for one of petrol or hydrogen, we wouldn't choose hydrogen, even today. The only reason anyone would continue to pursue hydrogen is because they've got money from someone to do so. Someone misguided.
Jez
babatunde said:
I've got nothing, I'm done, you win and I'm going to put down you hydrogen powered car deposit /s
Physics you disagree with, statistics are of no relevance, seems you're determined to disagree for the sake of disagreeing.
Hopefully some more open minds would have gained from this discussion.
LOL. Some folks talk more than they listen. 4k posts in under a year is quite a lot of talking.Physics you disagree with, statistics are of no relevance, seems you're determined to disagree for the sake of disagreeing.
Hopefully some more open minds would have gained from this discussion.
Evanivitch said:
Trabi601 said:
I see 'vast majority' often quoted. A 'vast majority' don't have access to a charge point either at home or at work or in both places.
And yet the majority of these terraced houses will have streetlights along the road, and offices have lighting too.So the electricity is there, it's accessible. There's no need for a major innovation or redesign, just an investment in infrastructure and a change in mentality (I.e. some courtesy when using electric from ICE owners).
JonV8V said:
Evanivitch said:
Trabi601 said:
I see 'vast majority' often quoted. A 'vast majority' don't have access to a charge point either at home or at work or in both places.
And yet the majority of these terraced houses will have streetlights along the road, and offices have lighting too.So the electricity is there, it's accessible. There's no need for a major innovation or redesign, just an investment in infrastructure and a change in mentality (I.e. some courtesy when using electric from ICE owners).
Phunk said:
JonV8V said:
Evanivitch said:
Trabi601 said:
I see 'vast majority' often quoted. A 'vast majority' don't have access to a charge point either at home or at work or in both places.
And yet the majority of these terraced houses will have streetlights along the road, and offices have lighting too.So the electricity is there, it's accessible. There's no need for a major innovation or redesign, just an investment in infrastructure and a change in mentality (I.e. some courtesy when using electric from ICE owners).
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