Interesting solution for ev trucks
Discussion
Not sure how viable Mehta il is. You need about 4L for every L of diesel.
Plus, to synthesise it you start with electricity, which is already an efficient transport fuel, use that to create green hydrogen, losing around 25% which is also a transport fuel and then have to catalyse that with CO2 of which there is almost none in the atmosphere. CO2 os only about 0.04% and where the bulk is several miles above sea level.
In the U.K. alone we burn 55bn litres of fuel a year for transport and none of the green hydrogen projects currently in the pipeline will produce anywhere near the total amount of hydrogen to even fuel a part of the U.K. transport needs.
This is why those hydrogen projects are actually about transporting cheap electricity from markets on the other side of the planet to high cost markets such as the EU. The hydrogen is a battery in this instance. The instant the tanker docks the gas is to be converted back to electricity.
This is the big problem for haulage. We are growing the green electricity market but there isn't another green energy source that is independent of that electricity. The only existing fallback is biodiesel but that doesn't work as you're as it is very limited in volume and is already financially rewarding deforestation and the dropping of food production so has no means to expand supply.
Plus, to synthesise it you start with electricity, which is already an efficient transport fuel, use that to create green hydrogen, losing around 25% which is also a transport fuel and then have to catalyse that with CO2 of which there is almost none in the atmosphere. CO2 os only about 0.04% and where the bulk is several miles above sea level.
In the U.K. alone we burn 55bn litres of fuel a year for transport and none of the green hydrogen projects currently in the pipeline will produce anywhere near the total amount of hydrogen to even fuel a part of the U.K. transport needs.
This is why those hydrogen projects are actually about transporting cheap electricity from markets on the other side of the planet to high cost markets such as the EU. The hydrogen is a battery in this instance. The instant the tanker docks the gas is to be converted back to electricity.
This is the big problem for haulage. We are growing the green electricity market but there isn't another green energy source that is independent of that electricity. The only existing fallback is biodiesel but that doesn't work as you're as it is very limited in volume and is already financially rewarding deforestation and the dropping of food production so has no means to expand supply.
joropug said:
Imagine how long it would take to clear the motorway after an accident involving these power lines.
Imagine the Chunnel or a ferry simply disappearing if a hydrogen tank of battery pack goes up. There are enormous logistical issues with haulage that have been overcome for diesel but not for any possible future alternatives.
For example, for the overhead power system to work you'd need much longer stretches of uninterrupted road than you get in the U.K. being a small and densely populated island our main roads are regularly crossed by viaducts, roads and other services etc.
The other issue is that any future means of powering haulage must be standardised across road based trading nations. A system that may work for Germany may not work for the U.K. or another trade partner.
Something that may need to be considered is that diesel may remain the default solution for key uses. Even if all cars, globally, were EVs we would still be extracting about 50% of the crude that we currently do for the food, plastics, chemicals and other industries. This means we will still be left with the Naphtha fractions which only use has been as a transport fuel. 100 years ago those fractions had no commercial use and were a waste product just burned off. We don't want to revert to that.
Given that green hydrogen doesn't exist and if all plans come to fruition the prediction is that by 2030 we will only have, globally, double the production levels of total hydrogen that we have currently and that the entire current global production of hydrogen couldn't power the U.K. transport fleet for more than two months, plus all that hydrogen is already earmarked for green electricity and greener natural gas which is where the largest tax credits are to pay the high price, it's fair to say that this is not a pan European haulage solution for those decade or the next.
Catalytic methanol doesn't commercially exist but also can't be made without using pre existing viable energy sources so wouldn't be a de facto solution.
Overhead power supply would be the equivalent of rebuilding entire railway networks and could only work in particular geographies leaving haulage trapped and confined.
Li batteries are rubbish. They are the reason that we are even considering these madcap investment projects as work arounds to this single problem of inefficient energy storage. Any overhead network or hydrogen manufacturing solution are projects that will take more than a decade. Latest estimates for a break away solution from Lithium are about a decade so in many ways rather than rebuilding the developed world and the enormous environmental cost that will incur we would be better to wait for some forms of transport for viable batteries.
Maybe the actual viable solution for the next two decades is to stick to diesel but to fit all HGV with proper scrubbers that strip almost all pollutants. Such a scrubber may rip out 20% of haulage space and may cost a lot to install but it's perfectly feasible that it could be the cheapest and most robust means to dramatically reduce pollution.
Li batteries are a serious problem that hinder all forms of clean transport and while we can work around many of the issues with private transport and short distance or defined distance transport such as buses and vans etc, it's not plausible with long distance HGV and none of the current paper alternatives are either. There's nothing for at least a decade if not much longer so arguably the smartest move is to accept diesel but invest in cleaning it.
Tesla Semi is coming out this year. https://www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/tesla-se...
Will be nice to see electric lorries on takeover.
Will be nice to see electric lorries on takeover.
delta0 said:
Tesla Semi is coming out this year. https://www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/tesla-se...
Will be nice to see electric lorries on takeover.
Was this the one unveiled in 2017? Will be nice to see electric lorries on takeover.
Won't hold my breath.
There are already quite a few actually on the roads from Renault, Mercedes-Benz etc.
delta0 said:
Tesla Semi is coming out this year. https://www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/tesla-se...
Will be nice to see electric lorries on takeover.
It does somewhat show the logistical hurdles. Half the normal HGV range and needing chargers that can be supplied with an enormous flow of electricity. Then trying to coordinate those restrictions with legal driver restrictions and possibly even weight restrictions, factoring in the funding of the initial outlay and covering the unknown shelf life and you can see that it's just not a viable industry solution but merely a product that could be squeezed into certain usage criteria if there is an excess of money. Will be nice to see electric lorries on takeover.
It's obviously a start but it's hard to see this path for HGVs being viable before an alternate and actually viable replacement for diesel and wet chemical batteries is finally found.
DonkeyApple said:
delta0 said:
Tesla Semi is coming out this year. https://www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/tesla-se...
Will be nice to see electric lorries on takeover.
It does somewhat show the logistical hurdles. Half the normal HGV range and needing chargers that can be supplied with an enormous flow of electricity. Then trying to coordinate those restrictions with legal driver restrictions and possibly even weight restrictions, factoring in the funding of the initial outlay and covering the unknown shelf life and you can see that it's just not a viable industry solution but merely a product that could be squeezed into certain usage criteria if there is an excess of money. Will be nice to see electric lorries on takeover.
It's obviously a start but it's hard to see this path for HGVs being viable before an alternate and actually viable replacement for diesel and wet chemical batteries is finally found.
sixor8 said:
Airports would be a good niche for electric trucks perhaps? Moving luggage, inflight consumables and passengers to and from planes. As well as contributing a small offset to the emissions from all the jet engines of course .......
Yup. There'll be more than a few peripheral cases where increased capex can be offset and the functionality of batteries fits well. Getting an EV HGV to work somewhere like the US for hopping between cities on regular routes might also be easier. I suspect the real market over the next few years will be the conversion of the massive single item, next day bit of tat from China van delivery network to EV. Hopefully Ford and Amazon's investments into Rivian will start to see usable suburban transits on the road
delta0 said:
DonkeyApple said:
delta0 said:
Tesla Semi is coming out this year. https://www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/tesla-se...
Will be nice to see electric lorries on takeover.
It does somewhat show the logistical hurdles. Half the normal HGV range and needing chargers that can be supplied with an enormous flow of electricity. Then trying to coordinate those restrictions with legal driver restrictions and possibly even weight restrictions, factoring in the funding of the initial outlay and covering the unknown shelf life and you can see that it's just not a viable industry solution but merely a product that could be squeezed into certain usage criteria if there is an excess of money. Will be nice to see electric lorries on takeover.
It's obviously a start but it's hard to see this path for HGVs being viable before an alternate and actually viable replacement for diesel and wet chemical batteries is finally found.
For example from the usability perspective you're going to need enormous supplies of power to fast charge an array of monumental battery packs at singular locations and bunched up to similar times of day. Getting that power is going to be a limitation. And then those EV trucks will be locked out from using the rest points that don't have big power supplies.
There's also the capex cost which has to be paid for by the end consumer along with the running cost and paying for the reduced flexibility. We're currently witnessing first hand the freak out by consumers and the impact on pricing of goods due to a basic rise in the cost of diesel. Everything you're seeing at the moment points to consumers not being willing or able to bankroll that inflationary pressure.
It seems logical that you could see EV HGVs trundling you and down the coast between LA and SF etc but at the same time you can see that this completely breaks down when you start looking at more complex routes elsewhere and where power supply is more limited and where there isn't the extreme wealth of California etc.
It's baby steps like the first viable EV cars but nowhere near as simple because there are business economics involved as well as different logistics and the other real risk is that the technology is going to be evolving quicker than the capex recovery rate which would put early commercial adopters at very significant commercial risk. Companies are going to be very wary of investing tens of millions into rolling stock that is very likely to be rendered commercially uncompetitive before its recovered that cost.
DonkeyApple said:
delta0 said:
DonkeyApple said:
delta0 said:
Tesla Semi is coming out this year. https://www.topgear.com/car-news/electric/tesla-se...
Will be nice to see electric lorries on takeover.
It does somewhat show the logistical hurdles. Half the normal HGV range and needing chargers that can be supplied with an enormous flow of electricity. Then trying to coordinate those restrictions with legal driver restrictions and possibly even weight restrictions, factoring in the funding of the initial outlay and covering the unknown shelf life and you can see that it's just not a viable industry solution but merely a product that could be squeezed into certain usage criteria if there is an excess of money. Will be nice to see electric lorries on takeover.
It's obviously a start but it's hard to see this path for HGVs being viable before an alternate and actually viable replacement for diesel and wet chemical batteries is finally found.
For example from the usability perspective you're going to need enormous supplies of power to fast charge an array of monumental battery packs at singular locations and bunched up to similar times of day. Getting that power is going to be a limitation. And then those EV trucks will be locked out from using the rest points that don't have big power supplies.
There's also the capex cost which has to be paid for by the end consumer along with the running cost and paying for the reduced flexibility. We're currently witnessing first hand the freak out by consumers and the impact on pricing of goods due to a basic rise in the cost of diesel. Everything you're seeing at the moment points to consumers not being willing or able to bankroll that inflationary pressure.
It seems logical that you could see EV HGVs trundling you and down the coast between LA and SF etc but at the same time you can see that this completely breaks down when you start looking at more complex routes elsewhere and where power supply is more limited and where there isn't the extreme wealth of California etc.
It's baby steps like the first viable EV cars but nowhere near as simple because there are business economics involved as well as different logistics and the other real risk is that the technology is going to be evolving quicker than the capex recovery rate which would put early commercial adopters at very significant commercial risk. Companies are going to be very wary of investing tens of millions into rolling stock that is very likely to be rendered commercially uncompetitive before its recovered that cost.
delta0 said:
I’m certain Tesla are aware of this and will have a plan for rolling out a suitable charging network for this.
Again, I agree. But the point being that they can only roll out such a network where the local economy is sufficient ie you wealthy to warrant the truck investment and where routes are suitable for the restrictive use and where there is a big enough power supply. The model looks the same as sticking a bit of electricity into some private cars that have no need to be profitable business units but in reality it's very, very different.
The article talks about megachargers that could get 400 miles into the truck in half an hour. That would seem perfect for a lunch break at a truck stop. But how are you going to pipe in such a massive amount of electricity to mega charge 100+ HGVs simultaneously? Not even the great Muskado can magic electrons out of his arse. There will be key locations where refuelling is essential for a route to work but where there isn't such a supply of electricity.
And if you're running a truck fleet, how many routes can you compete on with an EV that's cost more to buy, about the same to run but can't be refuelled on every route or at every point in time in needs to be? Your highly flexible dirty diesel HGV is going to get the business.
It arguably took over twenty years for private cars and their very simple usage and cost needs to become completely viable for large numbers of drivers. The HGV side is notably more complex and a lorry wedged full of wet chemical bricks is very likely to be rendered obsolete by tech advances before it earns back its expenditure.
Hybrid tech for trucks seems much more logical at this point in time as such a vehicle maintains complete usability on all routes, cleaner in an urban environment as we've noted with London buses and would be easier to recharge and at many more locations.
DonkeyApple said:
The article talks about megachargers that could get 400 miles into the truck in half an hour. That would seem perfect for a lunch break at a truck stop. But how are you going to pipe in such a massive amount of electricity to mega charge 100+ HGVs simultaneously? Not even the great Muskado can magic electrons out of his arse. There will be key locations where refuelling is essential for a route to work but where there isn't such a supply of electricity.
This brings up a good point, could you imagine how much infrastructure you would need to charge this lot 
Sometimes ICE is just a better option.
skwdenyer said:
The solution that has been obvious for years is to switch to using liquid methanol road fuel, synthesised (by catalysis, not just dumping energy into it) from CO2 sequestered from the atmosphere. There are pilot plants working now, and lots of work on reducing the energy footprint. Net zero CO2 forever; other tailpipe emissions are catchable / scrubbable.
Even renewable energy has a CO2 footprint, and you'd need huge amounts of it to even begin manufacturing liquid methanol. Plus the containment and pressure required, all consumes energy that has to come from somewhere. It's true of every artificial fuel, including hydrogen.
Evanivitch said:
skwdenyer said:
The solution that has been obvious for years is to switch to using liquid methanol road fuel, synthesised (by catalysis, not just dumping energy into it) from CO2 sequestered from the atmosphere. There are pilot plants working now, and lots of work on reducing the energy footprint. Net zero CO2 forever; other tailpipe emissions are catchable / scrubbable.
Even renewable energy has a CO2 footprint, and you'd need huge amounts of it to even begin manufacturing liquid methanol. Plus the containment and pressure required, all consumes energy that has to come from somewhere. It's true of every artificial fuel, including hydrogen.
Sequestering CO2 from the air is a load of b
ks used by shell companies to scam cash out of idiots and idiot governments. Paddy Lowe is peddling this tripe at the moment for his mythical unicorn juice. No cash in his company either.
The SNP have just agreed to pay Carbon Engineering to set up one of their mystical machines in Scotland because they e failed in Canada, run out of backers in North America and have managed to convince the SNP idiots that there is much more CO2 in Scottish air than Canadian air.
DonkeyApple said:
Sequestering CO2 from the air is a load of bks used by shell companies to scam cash out of idiots and idiot governments.
Agreed. Now, if we have to produce CO2 from some industrial processes then I think we should capture it and not just try and pump it underground, and IMO making fuel is a lesser evil. But I don't see it being scalable for aircraft and motor vehicles.ks used by shell companies to scam cash out of idiots and idiot governments. DonkeyApple said:
The SNP have just agreed to pay Carbon Engineering to set up one of their mystical machines in Scotland because they e failed in Canada, run out of backers in North America and have managed to convince the SNP idiots that there is much more CO2 in Scottish air than Canadian air.
Well they've out down the Welsh government which is obsessed with hydrogen...Gassing Station | EV and Alternative Fuels | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff