Will electricity prices start to kill off EV's?

[TheDeuce]

eliot said:

TheDeuce said:

They buy and sell at that very low price during low usage hours because it helps to balance the grid which avoids mass wastage and keeps the overall domestically produced power as cheap as possible.

Everyone who buys an EV and opts in for the cheap rate tarriffs is effectively doing their own little bit to 'upgrade' the grid by increasing the attached storage capacity. Hence, such charging will remain way below the 'cost' price. It effectively reduces the cost price for us all.

I assume you are talking about V2G which is still very much in it's infancy right now.
I'm benefiting from the cheap rate - but doesn't seem sustainable to me - hopefully I'm wrong.

Nope, although v2g is a long term sensible target.

I'm talking about balancing the grid as best as possible by using more power overnight, less power during the day. It's more efficient to power a grid that has a more constant demand.. also the thousands of connected EV's can 'absorb' power spikes from wind/solar sources, as opposed to having to wastefully throttle back the traditional power stations because it happens to be unexpectedly windy and sunny.

It makes perfect sense to use price to encourage people to use the grid more evenly throughout the day, everyone wins so there is no reason it should stop.

ETA: not sure if you're aware but the latest octopus tariffs don't just give cheap power overnight, they will also send cheap power to any connected EV's by starting them charging remotely whatever time of day. If there's an excess in power at 3:17 in the afternoon, thousands of EV's can be instantly triggered to charge for that period and they'll all pay just 7.5ppkwh

Edited by TheDeuce on Monday 26th September 13:44

[DonkeyApple]

TheDeuce said:

Nope, although v2g is a long term sensible target.

I'm talking about balancing the grid as best as possible by using more power overnight, less power during the day. It's more efficient to power a grid that has a more constant demand.. also the thousands of connected EV's can 'absorb' power spikes from wind/solar sources, as opposed to having to wastefully throttle back the traditional power stations because it happens to be unexpectedly windy and sunny.

It makes perfect sense to use price to encourage people to use the grid more evenly throughout the day, everyone wins so there is no reason it should stop.

I'm not inclined to believe the Octopus PR without question.

If what they claim were genuinely true then they wouldn't need to charge well above market on the rest of the tariff. There's some form of 'bookmaking' going on at their trading desk.

[TheDeuce]

DonkeyApple said:

TheDeuce said:

Nope, although v2g is a long term sensible target.

I'm talking about balancing the grid as best as possible by using more power overnight, less power during the day. It's more efficient to power a grid that has a more constant demand.. also the thousands of connected EV's can 'absorb' power spikes from wind/solar sources, as opposed to having to wastefully throttle back the traditional power stations because it happens to be unexpectedly windy and sunny.

It makes perfect sense to use price to encourage people to use the grid more evenly throughout the day, everyone wins so there is no reason it should stop.

I'm not inclined to believe the Octopus PR without question.

If what they claim were genuinely true then they wouldn't need to charge well above market on the rest of the tariff. There's some form of 'bookmaking' going on at their trading desk.

I haven't read any of their PR.

But at the time I signed up we were all expecting the electricity cap to jump to 52 a kWh, at that time they sold me a tariff that would at most be 38p for 12 months, so would have been outstanding value day/night. It's only due to Liz truss announcing the new cap that the tarriff now 'locks in' a price that is a little higher during the day.

Tbh I haven't even bothered to research if the new price cap will reduce the prices of a fixed tariff, I assume not. Regardless though, I use about 60% of my power to charge the EV and it's all done on the cheap rate so that more than offsets the higher daytime rate I assume I will be stuck with for the next 11 months.

[DonkeyApple]

TheDeuce said:

I haven't read any of their PR.

But at the time I signed up we were all expecting the electricity cap to jump to 52 a kWh, at that time they solde a tariff that would at most be 38p for 12 months, so would have been outstanding value day/night. It's only due to Liz truss announcing the new cap that the tarriff now 'locks in' a price that is a little higher during the day.

Tbh I haven't even bothered to research if the new price cap will reduce the prices of a fixed tariff, I assume not. Regardless though, I use about 60% of my power to charge the EV and it's all done on the cheap rate so that more than offsets the higher daytime rate I assume I will be stuck with for the next 11 months.

Yup, if you signed up in that brief window when the energy cap looked to be moving higher then it doesn't matter but the premium day rate/discount night rate has been a long term feature of which the question to be asking is why is that hefty day rate premium there?

Lots of people seem to view Octopus as some kitten loving organisation for profit that's got their back. I prefer to look at any organisation for profit as a bunch of bds using 'Friend of the people' PR drivel to hide what's really being done.

It's not a bad thing and it almost certainly doesn't really matter but I don't believe for one minute the simplicity of their PR.

[TheDeuce]

DonkeyApple said:

TheDeuce said:

I haven't read any of their PR.

But at the time I signed up we were all expecting the electricity cap to jump to 52 a kWh, at that time they solde a tariff that would at most be 38p for 12 months, so would have been outstanding value day/night. It's only due to Liz truss announcing the new cap that the tarriff now 'locks in' a price that is a little higher during the day.

Tbh I haven't even bothered to research if the new price cap will reduce the prices of a fixed tariff, I assume not. Regardless though, I use about 60% of my power to charge the EV and it's all done on the cheap rate so that more than offsets the higher daytime rate I assume I will be stuck with for the next 11 months.

Yup, if you signed up in that brief window when the energy cap looked to be moving higher then it doesn't matter but the premium day rate/discount night rate has been a long term feature of which the question to be asking is why is that hefty day rate premium there?

Lots of people seem to view Octopus as some kitten loving organisation for profit that's got their back. I prefer to look at any organisation for profit as a bunch of bds using 'Friend of the people' PR drivel to hide what's really being done.

It's not a bad thing and it almost certainly doesn't really matter but I don't believe for one minute the simplicity of their PR.

It's higher because it's locked in and for a long time there have been concerns about energy prices rising due to energy dependency overseas. I don't read anything more into it than that - apart from anything else most people with EV's are easily going to use enough of the cheap rate power for it to be the better overall option for them.

As for Octopus, I agree! They're a business, they have opted to market themselves by going the green route and a lot of the 'net zero' etc is absolute bks, as is their supposed moral motivations. But hey, I'm in business too and I present things a certain way every day if my life

I admire them for what they've done to differentiate themselves and they genuinely are pushing technology and smart thinking to make the most of what they sell. Specifically from my perspective, by working with the grid to obtain cheaper power at the most helpful times and getting a system up and running to automatically use that to charge EV's as and when - that is intelligent and progressive thinking. They're my cheapest nd simplest option, they may have my money and I wish only the best for their bottom line.

[rewild]

Octopus are the biggest supplier doing any sort of innovation (on any reasonable scale that's likely to provide data and make any sort of impact).

I'm not fooled for a second by their green credentials, but they clearly understand where we need to get to (moving the movable use to off-peak or low-demand times, creating load when load is needed). It's early days, but they're doing rather than just talking, which is more than many. They can have my money.

[Evanivitch]

DonkeyApple said:

Lots of people seem to view Octopus as some kitten loving organisation for profit that's got their back. I prefer to look at any organisation for profit as a bunch of bds using 'Friend of the people' PR drivel to hide what's really being done.

Octopus Energy Retailer business has made millions in losses on Agile and GO. But the energy business makes money on renewables and services to both retail (Kraken) and National Grid ESO (grid balancing and trials).

The energy retail business is effectively a massive BETA test for Kraken, smart meters and electric car integration.

[TheDeuce]

Evanivitch said:

DonkeyApple said:

Lots of people seem to view Octopus as some kitten loving organisation for profit that's got their back. I prefer to look at any organisation for profit as a bunch of bds using 'Friend of the people' PR drivel to hide what's really being done.

Octopus Energy Retailer business has made millions in losses on Agile and GO. But the energy business makes money on renewables and services to both retail (Kraken) and National Grid ESO (grid balancing and trials).

The energy retail business is effectively a massive BETA test for Kraken, smart meters and electric car integration.

They're getting good results early on too. It must take a huge effort to design and maintain the tie ins with each supported car and charger brand so that they can stop/start charging remotely - there's virtually no standardisation yet so each must be dealt with by a bespoke solution.

Their long term reward is that they're likely to heavily influence legislation of what future standards should be for v2g and several other smart new ways of better using energy - because they're now the defacto experts in how thing could and should work for now and into the future.

[DonkeyApple]

rewild said:

Octopus are the biggest supplier doing any sort of innovation (on any reasonable scale that's likely to provide data and make any sort of impact).

I'm not fooled for a second by their green credentials, but they clearly understand where we need to get to (moving the movable use to off-peak or low-demand times, creating load when load is needed). It's early days, but they're doing rather than just talking, which is more than many. They can have my money.

Yup. It's interesting to watch as they are the only people overtly deviating from the long term status quo.

If you have an EV it's a bit of a no brainer for most.

[TheDeuce]

DonkeyApple said:

Yup. It's interesting to watch as they are the only people overtly deviating from the long term status quo.

If you have an EV it's a bit of a no brainer for most.

Indeed.

And I can honestly say they're the only utility supplier I have ever used that there has been anything remotely interesting to say about

[DonkeyApple]

TheDeuce said:

Indeed.

And I can honestly say they're the only utility supplier I have ever used that there has been anything remotely interesting to say about

I've got lots of interesting stuff to say about EDF. Mostly in Anglo Saxon and relating to my missing money.

[TheDeuce]

For anyone wondering about how and why EV's are a solution and improvement in terms of the grid and energy generation, this is a very good and concise video that explains it all and debunks endless myths and assumptions.

What is discussed in this video is exactly what we're seeing play out via Octopus right now.



Also debunks the arguement for hydrogen cars.

[Evanivitch]

TheDeuce said:

They're getting good results early on too. It must take a huge effort to design and maintain the tie ins with each supported car and charger brand so that they can stop/start charging remotely - there's virtually no standardisation yet so each must be dealt with by a bespoke solution.

Their long term reward is that they're likely to heavily influence legislation of what future standards should be for v2g and several other smart new ways of better using energy - because they're now the defacto experts in how thing could and should work for now and into the future.

The long term reward is selling Kraken back-end software to everyone in the UK energy retail sector.

[Dave Hedgehog]

Evanivitch said:

The long term reward is selling Kraken back-end software to everyone in the UK energy retail sector.

and europe

[TheDeuce]

Evanivitch said:

TheDeuce said:

They're getting good results early on too. It must take a huge effort to design and maintain the tie ins with each supported car and charger brand so that they can stop/start charging remotely - there's virtually no standardisation yet so each must be dealt with by a bespoke solution.

Their long term reward is that they're likely to heavily influence legislation of what future standards should be for v2g and several other smart new ways of better using energy - because they're now the defacto experts in how thing could and should work for now and into the future.

The long term reward is selling Kraken back-end software to everyone in the UK energy retail sector.

That too, and no doubt endless contracts for consultancy, system/software sales and training overseas too. I see they're already doing that to an extent.

[OutInTheShed]

DonkeyApple said:

I've got lots of interesting stuff to say about EDF. Mostly in Anglo Saxon and relating to my missing money.

I'll raise you 'GreenStarEnergy', who my darling former tenant switched to and lumbered me with.
You can get more sense out of a monkey in a pharmaceutical trial.

[eliot]

TheDeuce said:

For anyone wondering about how and why EV's are a solution and improvement in terms of the grid and energy generation, this is a very good and concise video that explains it all and debunks endless myths and assumptions.

What is discussed in this video is exactly what we're seeing play out via Octopus right now.



Also debunks the arguement for hydrogen cars.

He states that he can run his car for 3p a mile - no doubt because he's charging at home on Octo at 7.5p. Count Quentin rightly points out that 30% of people cant charge at home and national grid fanboi says there's going to be lots of other options available - but those options wont be at 7.5p will they?

[TheDeuce]

eliot said:

He states that he can run his car for 3p a mile - no doubt because he's charging at home on Octo at 7.5p. Count Quentin rightly points out that 30% of people cant charge at home and national grid fanboi says there's going to be lots of other options available - but those options wont be at 7.5p will they?

Who knows. The problem at the moment is that if you can't charge at home, you're charging at public commercial chargers - that obviously charge a premium. That's not a problem 'today' as no one is forced to go EV. But as the deadlines loom, proper 'public' charging needs to be in place, and already solutions are being evaluated for that. Once the local councils are given funding to install public chargers for residents, there's no reason why the users shouldn't also be incentivised to charge at low grid demand hours the same as private households with their own charger.

It's simply too soon to say how this will play out for those that can't charge at home. We can't judge a solution that we don't yet know of... Although I fully understand and agree that at this stage people I that situation need some leadership reassurance that there is a plan coming together.

[DonkeyApple]

eliot said:

He states that he can run his car for 3p a mile - no doubt because he's charging at home on Octo at 7.5p. Count Quentin rightly points out that 30% of people cant charge at home and national grid fanboi says there's going to be lots of other options available - but those options wont be at 7.5p will they?

Correct. And Quentin will be there to sell that 30% an old Jag that's had one lady owner.

Anyway, the 30% won't need cars beyond 2050 as their jobs will be being done by robots and we will just be paying them money to hide away from making society look ugly and smelly like we already do with old people. Musk is already working on robots to ensure old people can be fully imprisoned away from society, all we need next are robots to keep poor people nicely boxed up at home, away from decent folk.

The problem currently with commercial EV chargers is that if they can buy at a lower rate than the building next to it can there is a clear arbitrage that people would be stupid not to take.

But a lot of this 'problem' is wrapped up in the grand delusion of the oppressed that 'the man' is coming to take their ICE away. That 30% of car users without offstreet parking are also the corr, backbone of any economy. Their mobility is essential. It will be a lower percentage in 20 years time as the big Boomer bulge stop using cars and the trend among you her workers of not owning a car continues but if anything, that section of society will simply define the level at which a then govt see no environmental or economic advantage in continuing to push EVs with legislation.

[NDA]

My new prices with Ovo have just been announced.

It makes my cost per mile on my 3 cars, using today's petrol price:

Tesla £0.06
Range Rover £0.44
Morgan £0.43

An imaginary Peugeot 208 Diesel £0.14
Latest SuperCharging cost £0.16

In my specific case, with a thirsty Range Rover as my alternative car, electricity prices would have to go up considerably (whilst petrol would have to stay static or reduce) to make an EV a comparatively costly thing to run.

I didn't buy it to save money or rainforests - just bought it as a car. But the savings, including servicing, are too large to ignore.

But there is parity now on Tesla supercharging costs Vs anything that does more than about 50mpg.

Edited by NDA on Tuesday 27th September 08:17