Will you be an EV enthusiast?

[TheDeuce]

SWoll said:

NMNeil said:

SWoll said:

The affordability has taken a hammering over the past 12-18 months. At one point a Fiat 500e was £20k in basic trim and VW ID3's started at around £25k-26k. Today you can add £10k to both of those due to limited model choice and rampant inflation. Finance costs have also gone through the roof with lease costs almost doubling on certain models over the past 2 years.

Madness.

But there may be light at the end of the tunnel.
https://screenrant.com/tesla-model-2-details-expla...
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-09-08...

The RWD Model 3 is now a £48,500 car without options, and with paint + alloy wheels is now £50k+

The Model 2, if it ever happens, wil be £35-45k all day long, the $25k quoted in that article is laughable.

Probably won't be $25k but I do see a battle on price brewing between the big manufacturers as EV's become more mainstream. But not until supply can keep pace with demand.

[SWoll]

TheDeuce said:

Probably won't be $25k but I do see a battle on price brewing between the big manufacturers as EV's become more mainstream. But not until supply can keep pace with demand.

100% won't be. Elon has plenty of previous to judge by in this area.

Yep, supply is going to be one of the challenges as well as so many cars been supplied to company drivers with considerable price hikes being hidden by the tax savings. The providers aren't going to want to let go of their current margins in a hurry.

[tamore]

quite happy driving an A-B EV these days. i am an enthusiast in how it makes the every day vehicle so much more pleasant to drive and doesn't stink the place up. i did the TVR thing in the 90s and early 2000s which was more fitting for the amount of traffic and condition of the roads.

i can't imagine driving a TVR these days as I think the congestion, road conditions and automatic speed policing would take the fun away. that and i sold my last one as life changed in a way which meant i just never got the chance to use it. the only times i did felt like i had to find time to do so, whereas once upon a time i would leave london at 5am and commute to belgium in an alarmingly short space of time!

[Evanivitch]

SWoll said:

The affordability has taken a hammering over the past 12-18 months. At one point a Fiat 500e was £20k in basic trim and VW ID3's started at around £25k-26k. Today you can add £10k to both of those due to limited model choice and rampant inflation. Finance costs have also gone through the roof with lease costs almost doubling on certain models over the past 2 years.

Madness.

MG4 just been shipped to UK. 51kWh starts at £25,995.

[TheDeuce]

tamore said:

quite happy driving an A-B EV these days. i am an enthusiast in how it makes the every day vehicle so much more pleasant to drive and doesn't stink the place up. i did the TVR thing in the 90s and early 2000s which was more fitting for the amount of traffic and condition of the roads.

i can't imagine driving a TVR these days as I think the congestion, road conditions and automatic speed policing would take the fun away. that and i sold my last one as life changed in a way which meant i just never got the chance to use it. the only times i did felt like i had to find time to do so, whereas once upon a time i would leave london at 5am and commute to belgium in an alarmingly short space of time!

I have much the same experience and view point. It's not just cars that change, it's the world too.

I love fun cars and I'm casually shopping (or will be when prices aren't insane..) for a fun ICE car to cherish and keep as a low mileage toy - and if I'm honest, a good investment. But I can absolutely be enthusiastic about an EV that makes general driving easier and more fun 100% of the time. Most fun cars are miserable in traffic, and the truth is you'll be more likely to find fun in an EV in heavy traffic by being able to carelessly leap away when the lights change and dart into gaps that the stop/start 'fun' ICE next to you cannot.

And you can drive a powerful EV like a hooligan every time you get the chance and it'll barely cost you any more in 'fuel' than if you drive it like a saint. That is most definitely not the case in any of the fun ICE cars I have driven! My old 450bhp MR2 Turbo springs to mind, it was hilarious sometimes but a beast to drive and bloody thirsty all the time - especially if I got the opportunity to give it a good thrashing. We're talking single digit mpg. The 400bhp Jag EV with about double the torque of the MR2? It costs about 3p per mile however it's driven..

And I genuinely would be gutted if circumstances changed and I had to go back to an ICE for the daily, I'd miss the EV. That surely signifies enthusiasm for the car and car type.

[S600BSB]

I think you also need to compare apples with apples. I think my ipace is just as enjoyable to drive as my old f-pace. More so actually. Is the ID-3 as enjoyable as a golf? Don't know, but probably. Similarly the electric mini compared to the ICE equivalent.

Many people who claim EVs are boring etc have never driven one or are comparing completely different types and classes of vehicle. There was a chap on PH recently moaning that a Taycan he had driven didn't have the same wow factor as his Lambo. Really?

[Boomroasted]

S600BSB said:

I think you also need to compare apples with apples. I think my ipace is just as enjoyable to drive as my old f-pace. More so actually. Is the ID-3 as enjoyable as a golf? Don't know, but probably. Similarly the electric mini compared to the ICE equivalent.

Many people who claim EVs are boring etc have never driven one or are comparing completely different types and classes of vehicle. There was a chap on PH recently moaning that a Taycan he had driven didn't have the same wow factor as his Lambo. Really?

Have the use of a taycan turbo or a 911 Carrera S, the taycan acceleration is brutal.... but that’s it. Other than that, it’s just a giant expensive soulless car. The 911 however....

[tamore]

but how about when the tech gets lighter and miniaturised? (batteries mostly)

i still think even if pork were able to make en EV with the same weight and handling characteristics as a 911, the old school enthusiasts would still pick the one that made engine noises. enthusiasts who are too young to drive yet will probably choose the EV.

[TheDeuce]

tamore said:

but how about when the tech gets lighter and miniaturised? (batteries mostly)

i still think even if pork were able to make en EV with the same weight and handling characteristics as a 911, the old school enthusiasts would still pick the one that made engine noises. enthusiasts who are too young to drive yet will probably choose the EV.

I think all of the above is realistic.

Also as I said a few posts up, even if you compare like for like it's possible to enjoy EV the whole time one way or another, with a specialist ICE car they're great sometimes, a bit of a pain other times.

And to swing the balance the EV is cheaper to thrash and people think you're interested in saving the planet. Just a bonus for me tbh

[Longy00000]

What was said about the taycan and 911 rings true though.
I've 'demonstrated' the abilities of various EVs ive had on loan to guest front seat passengers and have often heard a Wow after giving it the beans. However , the power of sound shouldn't be ignored in the emotive experience. Doing the same 'demonstration' in my Aston I don't usually get just a wow but I do get hysterics, screaming and laughter as they just 'buy' into the experience of the said demonstration all of which are usually absent in the EV.
Performance , in terms of lower speed acceleration, was about the same across both vehicles (0 -60 3.something for both) but the responses are often very different with people enjoying the ICE experience far more.
So rather unscientifically, the assault on the senses from an ICE appears to give far more pleasure than just the result of performance from an EV.
I've also felt that the performance of EVs falls off significantly at higher speeds. Above 120mph most EV will struggle against a comparable ICE, not all but most and I accept this is possibly not of much relevance to most people.

[Drl22]

Boomroasted said:

Have the use of a taycan turbo or a 911 Carrera S, the taycan acceleration is brutal.... but that’s it. Other than that, it’s just a giant expensive soulless car. The 911 however....

The driving gods are back again, most on PH couldn’t exploit the performance properly of either the Taycan or the 911 and get nowhere near the edge on the road either. Soul is not ONLY defined by noise (although it’s a huge factor for me) but you’d know that if you’d driven a good EV, I’m not sure you have…

[SWoll]

tamore said:

i still think even if pork were able to make en EV with the same weight and handling characteristics as a 911, the old school enthusiasts would still pick the one that made engine noises. enthusiasts who are too young to drive yet will probably choose the EV.

100%. For the same reason as I would not consider buying a tiptronic/PDK equipped 911. The drivetrain is the beating heart of any sportscar IMHO, and as much as I love EV's for daily use I can't imagine them ever offering what I'm looking for in a car that's sole purpose is providing driver enjoyment and involvement as there's just no challenge in extracting the best from it and little or no feedback.

We are talking about ICE cars with exceptional drivetras though. Plenty where I wouldnlt mourn the loss.

[TheDeuce]

Longy00000 said:

What was said about the taycan and 911 rings true though.
I've 'demonstrated' the abilities of various EVs ive had on loan to guest front seat passengers and have often heard a Wow after giving it the beans. However , the power of sound shouldn't be ignored in the emotive experience. Doing the same 'demonstration' in my Aston I don't usually get just a wow but I do get hysterics, screaming and laughter as they just 'buy' into the experience of the said demonstration all of which are usually absent in the EV.
Performance , in terms of lower speed acceleration, was about the same across both vehicles (0 -60 3.something for both) but the responses are often very different with people enjoying the ICE experience far more.
So rather unscientifically, the assault on the senses from an ICE appears to give far more pleasure than just the result of performance from an EV.
I've also felt that the performance of EVs falls off significantly at higher speeds. Above 120mph most EV will struggle against a comparable ICE, not all but most and I accept this is possibly not of much relevance to most people.

Above 120mph I notice blue lights

Your points are valid, and I agree tbh. Although I will say that all our female friends love the EV, to the point of being obsessed by being whooshed along in silence - I think the fairer sex might not appreciate the sound of combustion as much as we do...

But anyway, the two are just fundamentally different. ICE wins in terms of evoking passion and rawness. EV wins by being fun in more mundane periods of driving and in terms of cheapness to run and I guess these days it's a good image.

I love ICE but I'd miss the EV if it went. I love both, I just love cars and I think there's a passionate argument to made for both of we compare like for like as close as we can. What an awesome time to be a car fan - especially if you can have both in your life

[tamore]

SWoll said:

tamore said:

i still think even if pork were able to make en EV with the same weight and handling characteristics as a 911, the old school enthusiasts would still pick the one that made engine noises. enthusiasts who are too young to drive yet will probably choose the EV.

100%. For the same reason as I would not consider buying a tiptronic/PDK equipped 911. The drivetrain is the beating heart of any sportscar IMHO, and as much as I love EV's for daily use I can't imagine them ever offering what I'm looking for in a car that's sole purpose is providing driver enjoyment and involvement as there's just no challenge in extracting the best from it and little or no feedback.

We are talking about ICE cars with exceptional drivetras though. Plenty where I wouldnlt mourn the loss.

i've never felt more alive than when pushing on in my old 4.2 cerbera. the noise, vibration, fact it tried to murder me every time i drove it....... senses up to 11. the way things have changed though, i wouldn't fancy one now.

[DMZ]

I have to say that for me, the planet saving is very high up there. EVs trying to be sports cars or trying to deliver some kind of engagement, I can’t see it tbh. But if people buy EVs because they are sporty or engaging then all good, it all goes to the same good cause.

[TheDeuce]

I think that if we're to talk about enthusiasm we have to look at what it is to be a driver today, not just the cars.

I think we're at an amazing crossroads - ICE is pretty much as good as it will ever get, we're at the pinnacle. Also we have the new EV powertrains that are already easily better overall although handicapped by weight to an extent.

We're all drivers living through the most fascinating transition period in motoring history, and for most of us, for the rest of our lives, we can have either of both.

The arguements on here are fun in a top trumps kind of way... But surely we can all agree that these are bold and exciting times to be a driver.

[Longy00000]

tamore said:

i've never felt more alive than when pushing on in my old 4.2 cerbera. the noise, vibration, fact it tried to murder me every time i drove it....... senses up to 11. the way things have changed though, i wouldn't fancy one now.

Thats why I would want one more now than ever before!
Life has become so sterile and regimented that burning hydrocarbons that regularly try to kill you is just nirvana now.
Senses upto 11.....yeah every day of the week

[SWoll]

TheDeuce said:

I think that if we're to talk about enthusiasm we have to look at what it is to be a driver today, not just the cars.

I think we're at an amazing crossroads - ICE is pretty much as good as it will ever get, we're at the pinnacle. Also we have the new EV powertrains that are already easily better overall although handicapped by weight to an extent.

We're all drivers living through the most fascinating transition period in motoring history, and for most of us, for the rest of our lives, we can have either of both.

The arguements on here are fun in a top trumps kind of way... But surely we can all agree that these are bold and exciting times to be a driver.

My personal view is that ICE has been on a downward slope for 10-15 years or so in many performance cars with peak ICE being around the period of the 4.0 V8 M3, 6.2 V8 C63, 5.0 V10 M5 etc. The move to smaller capacity forced induction engines that sound a bit rubbish/artificial hasn't been my idea of improvement despite the cars being faster.

[TheDeuce]

SWoll said:

TheDeuce said:

I think that if we're to talk about enthusiasm we have to look at what it is to be a driver today, not just the cars.

I think we're at an amazing crossroads - ICE is pretty much as good as it will ever get, we're at the pinnacle. Also we have the new EV powertrains that are already easily better overall although handicapped by weight to an extent.

We're all drivers living through the most fascinating transition period in motoring history, and for most of us, for the rest of our lives, we can have either of both.

The arguements on here are fun in a top trumps kind of way... But surely we can all agree that these are bold and exciting times to be a driver.

My personal view is that ICE has been on a downward slope for 10-15 years or so in many performance cars with peak ICE being around the period of the 4.0 V8 M3, 6.2 V8 C63, 5.0 V10 M5 etc. The move to smaller capacity forced induction engines that sound a bit rubbish/artificial hasn't been my idea of improvement despite the cars being faster.

I actually agree - I have to given that the investment ICE I'm looking for is an M3 V8....

I was thinking more about the more recent very high powered ICE cars, breaching 1000hp in a few cars. But I agree that at an attainable and purist level 10-15 years ago was the high point.

The point stands however, now is a time we can have either or both.

[NMNeil]

SWoll said:

The Model 2, if it ever happens, wil be £35-45k all day long, the $25k quoted in that article is laughable.

Maybe, maybe not.
But I have my chequebook at the ready, just in case