Will you be an EV enthusiast?
Discussion
shirt said:
I think the main issue at the moment is cost of entry and that the tinkering aspect is shrouded in a smoke of complexity by those aiming to build businesses out of keeping it that way.
Probably be a lot of dead people if they try to tinker with an EV when they suddenly fall into the price range of bodgers.
I will probably get the LWB version of the new VW Buzz thing as a family car. I’m no EV-hater.
Despite the preconceptions of non-enthusiasts, outright speed or acceleration has never been that important to me, *provided the car is responsive*. A relatively slow classic Mini Cooper or any 80s hot hatch is way more fun than a modern 4-cylinder turbo-diesel, even though, obviously, the poor old Mini, or Mk II Golf, or 205, wouldn't see which way the modern car went. That does not matter to me. As an enthusiast, I'd be in the older cars right away, big grin on my face, whereas the new, and much faster, car is so dynamically uninteresting that I'd probably rather cycle.
In this brave new world, I will miss 4 things: sound, shedding / bangernomics, variety, and interactivity:
SOUND
As I write this, some lads on tuned sports bikes are out for a Sunday blast. I opened the window just now, all the better to hear them. I remember the wistful sound of race bikes on a hot dry mountain road in Andalucia, somewhere between Ronda and El Chorro, the wolf-pack crescendo echoing off the rocks. Me with the hire car stopped, out listening, rapt.
I remember one morning outside our holiday gaff near Èze, S France, very early, at dawn, along the rural part of the Avenue des Diables Bleus, the urgent baritone roar of a GT3 911 being driven at imprisonable pace, micro wheel chirps at every bone-dry corner, being lost in admiration at the blurred violence of his progress past our gate. Better than morning coffee! That guy, whoever he was, was no ordinary driver. Perhaps Delecour, or one of the F1 guys who live in nearby Monaco? Made my morning, but there is doubt the sound was a big part of it.
I remember Notting Hill, London, out walking with the family, the roar of superbikes approaching from behind along the Bayswater Road; then, looking round, startled, not superbikes, but in fact an Audi R8 and a Lamborghini Huracan, stopping, by good luck, engines grumbling, at the lights just beside us. I looked in at the lead Lambo driver, winked, thumbs up and pointed quickly at the road ahead. He grinned back, nodded, and he and the R8 guy behind fish-tailed off like escapees, bouncing off the rev limiters, the sonic shock waves rippling through our chest cavities. The kids were enthralled, and chattered excitedly for ages, the big kid with them inwardly no different.
I remember, growing up on our family farm, the sound of the Ulster rally in the distance. A demonic opera, sound coming at you in waves, rising, falling. And, cutting through the chorus, the noise of the short quattro. That demented, Minotaur bellowing, punctuated with frantic wastegate chirping and machine-gun rattles, as stones peppered the bodywork. It made the hairs on your neck stand up. On one such occasion, instantly dropping all chores (as my late Dad shook his head resignedly at the follies of car-obsessed youth), my brother and I sprinted towards the sound, to get a vantage point. Sonic devotees ..
SHEDDING / BANGERNOMICS
I see EVs as useful and practical. Biggest downsides currently are rip-off entry costs and (speaking as someone with a shed full of 1980s cars, all on their original engines) the increasing unlikelihood of long-term / cherished ownership, as batteries will need to be replaced long before such ages are reached. Of course, that is no concern at all for many purchasers, on modern financing plans, who will buy new or nearly new and sell on at 2-3 years. Maybe if they can find a way to replace batteries cheaply and without the current ruinous effects on the environment in lithium mining areas, then that will cease to be an issue.
A social shedding aspect will be lost, though I accept that EV meets are apparently a thing. I grew up on a farm, and a comparable social change has occurred there also. When I was a kid, grass primarily was harvested via small hay bales. Thousands of the things. All needing to be individually collected and stacked in sheds etc. High requirement for manpower, hence all your mates and neighbours pitched in until the small hours (kept you fit) and had a beer afterwards. Nowadays, that sociable mass effort has been replaced by monstrous contractor silage machines that clear a large field in a few minutes in one swoop, all operated by one solitary contractor bloke whom you barely speak to. Very efficient, of course, but a light-hearted communal aspect has been lost. Similarly, throughout my life, whether it was tinkering with (“improving”, lol) scooters, motorbikes or cars, there was a sociability and fun in congregating at a friend’s shed of an evening and everyone trying to help out, even if it meant one bloke doing most of the work and everyone else standing around making unhelpful comments : ) Not sure there will be much serious shedding for EVs, when all you have to do is download a power upgrade as you drive along.
VARIETY
Variety – a sense of engineering variety / choice has been lost. I recall as a kid being able to identify the make of a car by sound alone. Austin Rover cars, Volkswagens, Renaults, BMs, many cars had a unique sound. I loved the way different engineers in different countries produced different solutions, and the opportunities for choice (and subsequent arguments about which car was better) thereby afforded. Nowadays, essentially, all EVs cars have the same engine. Quite a good engine, but that’s not the point. That rot was setting in anyway, with platform sharing, but it was still present to an extent.
INTERACTIVITY
I agree with the poster who reprised my original post against diesel cars. Some of the charges (pun, groan) that can be levelled against EVs can also be applied to, for instance, modern 4-cylinder turbo-diesel automatics. It’s not entirely on point, though. Our current family car is a A8 4.2 V8 LWB diesel, and it has a beast of an engine, and has a definite rumbling badass character. Our stage 1 tuned 3 litre diesel A6 is no slouch either, but has nothing like the character and sonic appeal of the V8. Of course, V8 diesels are a niche market, and most diesels are functional and pretty un-characterful. It is true though that the move to using batteries instead of engines is not the only, or perhaps even the main, thing I’m concerned about. I’m more concerned about a wider loss of interactivity, and a wider loss of individual freedom.
I’m not great at blipping the throttle on down-shifts. I get it right about half the time. Recently, as the revs flared to match the road speed as I engaged third on a tight corner, it struck me that, relative to modern and future generations of drivers, I’m close to an expert on such arcane matters, as nobody does that any more; and, mostly, with dull-witted turbo-diesel engines, and on-off batteries, it’s respectively largely, and wholly, impossible.
Why bother anyway, says you. Well, 3 reasons:
1 Stability – by rev-matching, you minimise any transmission jolt when adapting to higher revs – you equalise / smooth them out. In a corner, a stable car is a safer car.
2. Minimises wear and tear on the transmission.
3 And, most important of all, it sounds great …
Another satisfying micro-skill, soon to be lost forever, sacrificed on the embourgeoisement altar. Soon, we’ll all be wafting about in our transportation pods, entirely passive, perma-monitored every second of the way by government (and big insurance company) computers.
Cars used to have a variety of personalities. Nowadays, all cars are converging to a bourgeois mean.
And, for driving enthusiasts, it’s only getting worse. Audi cheerfully admits that, when designing its forthcoming A8 model replacement, the “drive system and the handling are no longer at the top of the design specifications in this new generation of cars. Instead, the starting point is the interior, the occupants’ living and experience sphere while traveling.”
Travelling! They don’t even bother to say “driving” any more …
Whereas, for people like me, drivetrain and handing are front and centre.
And, as the alarming success of the unashamedly Big Brother-y Alexa reveals, this lamentable state of high-tech serfdom is what lots of people want. The interior mock-ups of Audi’s 2025 A8 limo replacement are revealing. Audi is modelling the modern “driver” experience, not on driving, but on travelling, and, specifically, on first class airline travel, where the most you need to do is get the recline angle right on your seat as you settle back to do precisely nothing. How boring is that? Great for the visually impaired, and for drunk people (who now won’t need to get a taxi home), obviously, but pretty tedious for the rest of us. Even the steering wheel is retractable, for those increasing-duration periods when you won’t even need it.
I can see the appeal, for some. Increasingly, my perception is that many younger drivers find driving stressful and boring, and they’re not very good at it anyway. People will lap this up. And, being Audi, it’ll be well made and nicely-finished (none of your Tesla shonkiness here).
For enthusiasts though, it’s a loss.
Imagine a skiing holiday where skiing was banned and replaced with rides up and down the mountain in the gondolas / cable cars. The new skiing – no effort needed – why did nobody think of this before? That’s more or less what new cars will be like. Great for folks who can’t ski. And safer and more relaxing, obviously. And you still get to see the fab scenery. But overall, a bit rubbish for those of us who like to, er, ski … or drive …
It is fair to say that this loss of freedom and loss of interactivity was in train anyway – EVs may well speed up and facilitate the dumbing down and increasing surveillance of cars, but it was happening anyway.
Despite the preconceptions of non-enthusiasts, outright speed or acceleration has never been that important to me, *provided the car is responsive*. A relatively slow classic Mini Cooper or any 80s hot hatch is way more fun than a modern 4-cylinder turbo-diesel, even though, obviously, the poor old Mini, or Mk II Golf, or 205, wouldn't see which way the modern car went. That does not matter to me. As an enthusiast, I'd be in the older cars right away, big grin on my face, whereas the new, and much faster, car is so dynamically uninteresting that I'd probably rather cycle.
In this brave new world, I will miss 4 things: sound, shedding / bangernomics, variety, and interactivity:
SOUND
As I write this, some lads on tuned sports bikes are out for a Sunday blast. I opened the window just now, all the better to hear them. I remember the wistful sound of race bikes on a hot dry mountain road in Andalucia, somewhere between Ronda and El Chorro, the wolf-pack crescendo echoing off the rocks. Me with the hire car stopped, out listening, rapt.
I remember one morning outside our holiday gaff near Èze, S France, very early, at dawn, along the rural part of the Avenue des Diables Bleus, the urgent baritone roar of a GT3 911 being driven at imprisonable pace, micro wheel chirps at every bone-dry corner, being lost in admiration at the blurred violence of his progress past our gate. Better than morning coffee! That guy, whoever he was, was no ordinary driver. Perhaps Delecour, or one of the F1 guys who live in nearby Monaco? Made my morning, but there is doubt the sound was a big part of it.
I remember Notting Hill, London, out walking with the family, the roar of superbikes approaching from behind along the Bayswater Road; then, looking round, startled, not superbikes, but in fact an Audi R8 and a Lamborghini Huracan, stopping, by good luck, engines grumbling, at the lights just beside us. I looked in at the lead Lambo driver, winked, thumbs up and pointed quickly at the road ahead. He grinned back, nodded, and he and the R8 guy behind fish-tailed off like escapees, bouncing off the rev limiters, the sonic shock waves rippling through our chest cavities. The kids were enthralled, and chattered excitedly for ages, the big kid with them inwardly no different.
I remember, growing up on our family farm, the sound of the Ulster rally in the distance. A demonic opera, sound coming at you in waves, rising, falling. And, cutting through the chorus, the noise of the short quattro. That demented, Minotaur bellowing, punctuated with frantic wastegate chirping and machine-gun rattles, as stones peppered the bodywork. It made the hairs on your neck stand up. On one such occasion, instantly dropping all chores (as my late Dad shook his head resignedly at the follies of car-obsessed youth), my brother and I sprinted towards the sound, to get a vantage point. Sonic devotees ..
SHEDDING / BANGERNOMICS
I see EVs as useful and practical. Biggest downsides currently are rip-off entry costs and (speaking as someone with a shed full of 1980s cars, all on their original engines) the increasing unlikelihood of long-term / cherished ownership, as batteries will need to be replaced long before such ages are reached. Of course, that is no concern at all for many purchasers, on modern financing plans, who will buy new or nearly new and sell on at 2-3 years. Maybe if they can find a way to replace batteries cheaply and without the current ruinous effects on the environment in lithium mining areas, then that will cease to be an issue.
A social shedding aspect will be lost, though I accept that EV meets are apparently a thing. I grew up on a farm, and a comparable social change has occurred there also. When I was a kid, grass primarily was harvested via small hay bales. Thousands of the things. All needing to be individually collected and stacked in sheds etc. High requirement for manpower, hence all your mates and neighbours pitched in until the small hours (kept you fit) and had a beer afterwards. Nowadays, that sociable mass effort has been replaced by monstrous contractor silage machines that clear a large field in a few minutes in one swoop, all operated by one solitary contractor bloke whom you barely speak to. Very efficient, of course, but a light-hearted communal aspect has been lost. Similarly, throughout my life, whether it was tinkering with (“improving”, lol) scooters, motorbikes or cars, there was a sociability and fun in congregating at a friend’s shed of an evening and everyone trying to help out, even if it meant one bloke doing most of the work and everyone else standing around making unhelpful comments : ) Not sure there will be much serious shedding for EVs, when all you have to do is download a power upgrade as you drive along.
VARIETY
Variety – a sense of engineering variety / choice has been lost. I recall as a kid being able to identify the make of a car by sound alone. Austin Rover cars, Volkswagens, Renaults, BMs, many cars had a unique sound. I loved the way different engineers in different countries produced different solutions, and the opportunities for choice (and subsequent arguments about which car was better) thereby afforded. Nowadays, essentially, all EVs cars have the same engine. Quite a good engine, but that’s not the point. That rot was setting in anyway, with platform sharing, but it was still present to an extent.
INTERACTIVITY
I agree with the poster who reprised my original post against diesel cars. Some of the charges (pun, groan) that can be levelled against EVs can also be applied to, for instance, modern 4-cylinder turbo-diesel automatics. It’s not entirely on point, though. Our current family car is a A8 4.2 V8 LWB diesel, and it has a beast of an engine, and has a definite rumbling badass character. Our stage 1 tuned 3 litre diesel A6 is no slouch either, but has nothing like the character and sonic appeal of the V8. Of course, V8 diesels are a niche market, and most diesels are functional and pretty un-characterful. It is true though that the move to using batteries instead of engines is not the only, or perhaps even the main, thing I’m concerned about. I’m more concerned about a wider loss of interactivity, and a wider loss of individual freedom.
I’m not great at blipping the throttle on down-shifts. I get it right about half the time. Recently, as the revs flared to match the road speed as I engaged third on a tight corner, it struck me that, relative to modern and future generations of drivers, I’m close to an expert on such arcane matters, as nobody does that any more; and, mostly, with dull-witted turbo-diesel engines, and on-off batteries, it’s respectively largely, and wholly, impossible.
Why bother anyway, says you. Well, 3 reasons:
1 Stability – by rev-matching, you minimise any transmission jolt when adapting to higher revs – you equalise / smooth them out. In a corner, a stable car is a safer car.
2. Minimises wear and tear on the transmission.
3 And, most important of all, it sounds great …
Another satisfying micro-skill, soon to be lost forever, sacrificed on the embourgeoisement altar. Soon, we’ll all be wafting about in our transportation pods, entirely passive, perma-monitored every second of the way by government (and big insurance company) computers.
Cars used to have a variety of personalities. Nowadays, all cars are converging to a bourgeois mean.
And, for driving enthusiasts, it’s only getting worse. Audi cheerfully admits that, when designing its forthcoming A8 model replacement, the “drive system and the handling are no longer at the top of the design specifications in this new generation of cars. Instead, the starting point is the interior, the occupants’ living and experience sphere while traveling.”
Travelling! They don’t even bother to say “driving” any more …
Whereas, for people like me, drivetrain and handing are front and centre.
And, as the alarming success of the unashamedly Big Brother-y Alexa reveals, this lamentable state of high-tech serfdom is what lots of people want. The interior mock-ups of Audi’s 2025 A8 limo replacement are revealing. Audi is modelling the modern “driver” experience, not on driving, but on travelling, and, specifically, on first class airline travel, where the most you need to do is get the recline angle right on your seat as you settle back to do precisely nothing. How boring is that? Great for the visually impaired, and for drunk people (who now won’t need to get a taxi home), obviously, but pretty tedious for the rest of us. Even the steering wheel is retractable, for those increasing-duration periods when you won’t even need it.
I can see the appeal, for some. Increasingly, my perception is that many younger drivers find driving stressful and boring, and they’re not very good at it anyway. People will lap this up. And, being Audi, it’ll be well made and nicely-finished (none of your Tesla shonkiness here).
For enthusiasts though, it’s a loss.
Imagine a skiing holiday where skiing was banned and replaced with rides up and down the mountain in the gondolas / cable cars. The new skiing – no effort needed – why did nobody think of this before? That’s more or less what new cars will be like. Great for folks who can’t ski. And safer and more relaxing, obviously. And you still get to see the fab scenery. But overall, a bit rubbish for those of us who like to, er, ski … or drive …
It is fair to say that this loss of freedom and loss of interactivity was in train anyway – EVs may well speed up and facilitate the dumbing down and increasing surveillance of cars, but it was happening anyway.
Edited by MF35 on Sunday 18th September 13:51
There are some things missing from EVs in their current state of development for me to get enthusiastic about. We have an ID.4 and I've had a Model S for a weekend, so have some real world experience.
There are no convertibles, or svelte coupes. Nothing that's built to drive just for the sheer fun of it. I can't imagine taking the ID or MS to the Blue Ridge Parkway, or Tail of the Dragon for the joy of the drive, the scenery and the mountain air, then drive home in comfort (ignoring the looong stop to charge somewhere).
There are no estates, especially fast estates. I rather like a rapid load carrier, there's something quite satisfying about having a load of band gear in the back one day, 3 dogs the next, and still being able to have fun. Maybe a Model X is close, but jeez look at the cost of that thing!
There are no huge SUVs. I have a very old Sequoia, 7 seats and can take any load I can imagine. OK, 12MPG (US) but it does an amazing job. It's a hoot to drive, super reliable so far (256K miles...) and although glacially slow it's lovely to be wafted along. It's not quite a Range Rover, but the load space is much bigger. Lots of people over here take their trucks to car/auto shows.
Then there's mods. If I have a basic BMW 520D and I want it to go faster, I can. If I want my XKR to go faster, or stop better, I can. The PO of my old Dodge replaced the original 318 with a 383, upgraded brakes and other stuff - we can tinker with cars, make them our own. EVs are mostly too new to do that, since many are still under warranty (at least battery warranty) and the risks of messing with them are high. Yes, some have done this, but it's not home mechanic territory.
TL;DR: the stuff that I personally get enthusiastic for about cars is missing from EVs in their present state. Although a P100D would be fun for a while.
There are no convertibles, or svelte coupes. Nothing that's built to drive just for the sheer fun of it. I can't imagine taking the ID or MS to the Blue Ridge Parkway, or Tail of the Dragon for the joy of the drive, the scenery and the mountain air, then drive home in comfort (ignoring the looong stop to charge somewhere).
There are no estates, especially fast estates. I rather like a rapid load carrier, there's something quite satisfying about having a load of band gear in the back one day, 3 dogs the next, and still being able to have fun. Maybe a Model X is close, but jeez look at the cost of that thing!
There are no huge SUVs. I have a very old Sequoia, 7 seats and can take any load I can imagine. OK, 12MPG (US) but it does an amazing job. It's a hoot to drive, super reliable so far (256K miles...) and although glacially slow it's lovely to be wafted along. It's not quite a Range Rover, but the load space is much bigger. Lots of people over here take their trucks to car/auto shows.
Then there's mods. If I have a basic BMW 520D and I want it to go faster, I can. If I want my XKR to go faster, or stop better, I can. The PO of my old Dodge replaced the original 318 with a 383, upgraded brakes and other stuff - we can tinker with cars, make them our own. EVs are mostly too new to do that, since many are still under warranty (at least battery warranty) and the risks of messing with them are high. Yes, some have done this, but it's not home mechanic territory.
TL;DR: the stuff that I personally get enthusiastic for about cars is missing from EVs in their present state. Although a P100D would be fun for a while.
Klippie said:
EV cars are for the favoured few that afford them, Joe Bloggs on a low income will require cheap ice cars to get to work, are there any sub £2000 EV’s for sale just now...no and never will be as the huge cost of a replacement battery pack will create piles of scrapped cars.
This push to EV is nothing more than green virtue signalling the infrastructure is no where good enough for a mass roll out of this technology never mind the affordability of the cars...it’s all bulls
t and people need to wake-up to see this.
I wonder whether we'll look back in future and see that this push to EV by the Government was an even worse thing than the push to diesel was. EVs might be 'clean' at point of use but they're horrendous at point of manufacture and probably the same at the end of their life. Looking at how quickly tech becomes redundant I also think it'll become nearly impossible in future to buy circuit boards or components for cars by the time they reach a decade old. The repairability of vehicles is getting worse, not better. That's not just an EV issue at the moment either; a minor bit of damage eg. to one of these fancy headlights could in future conceivably be enough to write off a car. We're looking at shorter car life cycles as a result which makes the environmental impact even worse.This push to EV is nothing more than green virtue signalling the infrastructure is no where good enough for a mass roll out of this technology never mind the affordability of the cars...it’s all bulls
t and people need to wake-up to see this.Also agree on the infrastructure not being anywhere near ready to deal with hundreds of thousands or millions of cars being charged up via the grid.
As for the OP's question... I'm actually losing my interest in cars generally already to be honest, even before we're all in dull EVs - anything interesting is so far out of reach for the average buyer now but more to the point there's nowhere you can actually enjoy driving these days. Every inch of road not already covered by cameras probably has someone with a dashcam itching to snitch on any enthusiastic motoring. Speed limiters and GPS tracking of every car will be the final bolt-gun to the head of car enthusiasts.
The golden age of motoring has already pretty much ended. The future's dull; the future's boring.
Edited by Funk on Sunday 18th September 14:10
Yes - because I think electric motors are a much much better engineering solution than pistons, and am excited to see what designers & engineers will come up with.
An analogy - the switch for aircraft from piston engines to gas turbines in the 1950/60s. Better fuel (jet A1 has more energy density than avgas), more power, simpler, much more reliable. I am sure there are still some who find radials or inline V12s more romantic and with more soul than a turboprop or turbofan, but most aircraft enthusiasts are equally (or more so) enthusiasts for post 1950 aircraft as well as pre 1950.
An analogy - the switch for aircraft from piston engines to gas turbines in the 1950/60s. Better fuel (jet A1 has more energy density than avgas), more power, simpler, much more reliable. I am sure there are still some who find radials or inline V12s more romantic and with more soul than a turboprop or turbofan, but most aircraft enthusiasts are equally (or more so) enthusiasts for post 1950 aircraft as well as pre 1950.
I think it could be an exciting time for cars, so much has been done with ICE but its new territory for EVs, the designers and engineers can start to have some fun with new ideas. If anything ICE was holding car design back. It might also push the boundaries of ICE too and get the designers to start coming up with some new solutions to emissions and range. The basic ingredients of the car hasn't changed much over the years. Hopefully it will push forward materials tech and reduce the need for so much virgin metal and plastic.
mr_spock said:
There are no convertibles, or svelte coupes. Nothing that's built to drive just for the sheer fun of it. I can't imagine taking the ID or MS to the Blue Ridge Parkway, or Tail of the Dragon for the joy of the drive, the scenery and the mountain air, then drive home in comfort (ignoring the looong stop to charge somewhere).
There are no estates, especially fast estates. I rather like a rapid load carrier, there's something quite satisfying about having a load of band gear in the back one day, 3 dogs the next, and still being able to have fun. Maybe a Model X is close, but jeez look at the cost of that thing!
MG5 estate exists... (ok, maybe not fast)There are no estates, especially fast estates. I rather like a rapid load carrier, there's something quite satisfying about having a load of band gear in the back one day, 3 dogs the next, and still being able to have fun. Maybe a Model X is close, but jeez look at the cost of that thing!
Lots of convertibles in the pipeline, and the Fiat500 cabriolet is selling well.
I took a really s
tty hire car to the Blue Ridge Parkway (Nissan Pulsar) and it was still utterly fantastic. The speed limits (45 MPH, some places lower) meant that the joy of the drive, the fall leaves and the mountain air were the main focus, not the car I was pretty agnostic about EVs when I got my ipace nearly 2 years ago. But for a daily they are just brilliant. Fast, comfortable and relatively cheap to run. I do about 1,000 miles a month and wouldn't go back to an ICE for my work hack. The only caveat is having a drive and the ability to charge at home; I have only used a public charger twice. The future is fun and (very) fast!
S600BSB said:
I was pretty agnostic about EVs when I got my ipace nearly 2 years ago. But for a daily they are just brilliant. Fast, comfortable and relatively cheap to run. I do about 1,000 miles a month and wouldn't go back to an ICE for my work hack. The only caveat is having a drive and the ability to charge at home; I have only used a public charger twice. The future is fun and (very) fast!
Imagine the running gear in something like an F-type, would be rapidI never thought I would get an EV, confirmed ICE fanatic so I believed, because it’s all I have known and loved as a 60 year old car nut. Then I looked into the economics of an EV as a company car and it is attractive from a finance perspective. Then I test drove an Audi e-tron. Loved it. Smooth, fast, comfortable, well equipped and a good looking SUV (to me). I commute about 50 miles round trip each day. My company is paying the lease cost which helps and full maintenance via great deal with Audi and very reasonable for 20k miles per year. Charger installed at my office with government grant, low BIK, fantastic car for my daily purposes. I will be changing from a 2011 VW Touareg V6 Altitude which has been a fantastic car and served me well for 8 years but now 130k miles and £180 to fill at 34mpg. I also have my new to me Jaguar XK V8 5.0 convertible for weekends having just traded out of a manual Porsche 997 C2S after 10 years of ownership so still keep my PH card. The Audi was on 4 to 6 months delivery which is shorter than I had feared so should have it in December all going to plan. And I hand it back for the later model in 3 years. My circumstances may not be be the same for most but it makes sense for me.
Silvanus said:
Imagine the running gear in something like an F-type, would be rapid
And far less interesting. Give me the V6 or V8 any day of the week in a sportscar thanks, manic acceleration alone loses it's appeal pretty quickly IME and for a road car becomes an often frustrating battle of self control.As Jules tells us in Pulp Fiction "personality goes a log way". Ruthless efficiency is seldom fun, despite being very effective.
I think as mentioned already, EV owners do have a tendency to meet each other with some regularity and for extended periods of time so not sure I would personally look for more stationary EV time in the company of other EVs. But while there was a bit of novelty and comradery at the start, it’s all pretty bleak now in my general experience with people staring into space or at their phones or trying to identify the supposed food product they bought at the service station, wishing they were back on the road. Like somebody mentioned, it’d be like caring about diesel cars. There’s way more [positive] commentary at a petrol station with the odd thumbs up and some quick chat about this and the other, despite only being there for a few mins.
One of the last times I was at a public charger, I was on a work call kind of walking around the car stretching the legs and this guy (Tesla owner in case it’s representative) comes over to me and starts some unsolicited lecture on charging. (a) I’m on a call (b) who gives a st? I honestly would rather stab myself than spend more time with people like that.
One of the last times I was at a public charger, I was on a work call kind of walking around the car stretching the legs and this guy (Tesla owner in case it’s representative) comes over to me and starts some unsolicited lecture on charging. (a) I’m on a call (b) who gives a s
t? I honestly would rather stab myself than spend more time with people like that. Funk said:
EVs might be 'clean' at point of use but they're horrendous at point of manufacture and probably the same at the end of their life.
No doubt you have this image in your mind of mountains of black sludge leaking everywhere and poisoning everything. The reason a battery produces carbon dioxide at the point of manufacture is mainly due to the electricity consumed producing aluminium, graphite and other metals. Now guess what happens to the carbon footprint of an EV battery if you use 100% renewable electricity during its manufacture and produce it in the same quantity as an ICE drivetrain.
And whilst you are at it why not guess how much of an EV battery can be recycled at the end of its service life using low energy methods.
GT9 said:
Funk said:
EVs might be 'clean' at point of use but they're horrendous at point of manufacture and probably the same at the end of their life.
No doubt you have this image in your mind of mountains of black sludge leaking everywhere and poisoning everything. The reason a battery produces carbon dioxide at the point of manufacture is mainly due to the electricity consumed producing aluminium, graphite and other metals. Now guess what happens to the carbon footprint of an EV battery if you use 100% renewable electricity during its manufacture and produce it in the same quantity as an ICE drivetrain.
And whilst you are at it why not guess how much of an EV battery can be recycled at the end of its service life using low energy methods.
Ardennes92 said:
It’s not just the manufacture of them though, what about the mining of the raw materials, don’t see them using renewables; plus shift 2.5 tonne of product half way around the world.
As opposed to 2 tons for the equivalent ICE?And does the fact that over the course of its life your ICE will burn through about 15-20 tons of non-recyclable refined/extracted fossil fuel which will then put say 50 tons of C02 into the atmosphere also bother you?
It is utter hypocrisy to moan about EVs whilst merrily consuming vast quantities of fossil fuel. I don’t have an EV, and yes I also burn through lots of fossil fuel but at least I can see how ridiculous it is to then regurgitate tabloid hysteria surrounding them.
smn159 said:
The main reason that ICE cards are appealing to some people is familiarity and nostalgia.
For me it's the lack of interactivity and emotional connection. I love an EV drivertrain for daily use, far superior to ICE, but it gives nothing back to the driver if you are looking for more. Ran one of the most driver focussed EV's for 2 years and 20k miles up until last year and never once took it out for a drive just for the experience of doing so. There are of course some people like you say, but I wouldn't suggest they are either car or driving enthusiasts, just set in their ways.
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