Am i seeing things?
Discussion
NDNDNDND said:
Yeah, sure it is.
People throw around a Volvo study because it suits their view point but as soon as Volvo say something that doesn’t suit it they can’t believe it anymore 
Evanivitch said:
Did everyone miss the news about global inflation and falling value of sterling?
Net emissions, thanks to offsetting. Offsetting isn't a bad thing, but it's badly manipulated by marketing departments.
At least we know the big headline number for an EV in the battery can actually be completely zero’d by using renewable energy. delta0 said:
NDNDNDND said:
Certainly if that means avoiding the purchase of three electric cars with their massive, embodied carbon footprint.
He says on a thread for a car that is 0g from the factory. DMZ said:
On the supply, I’m not sure Volvo or Polestar have been as badly affected as the German brands. Someone I know wrote off a brand new Volvo recently and got a new one within a couple of weeks..
I have a LRDM Polestar 2 on order.Ordered August.
Current estimated delivery time: July 2023.
11 months !!!!!
Evanivitch said:
Net emissions, thanks to offsetting. Offsetting isn't a bad thing, but it's badly manipulated by marketing departments.
I'm not convinced about offsetting not being "a bad thing".I'd like to see how many of these offset schemes actually offset what they're meant to in the long term.
I'm also not convinced it's really the point. Excessive consumption is the issue (whether one believes fully in MMGW or not). Consuming excessively and paying someone else to plant a tree doesn't seem that great an idea to me, if the aim is to save the planet
sjg said:
Specced up dual motor “ultimate” edition is all that’s available at launch. Single motor modest spec is meant to start from £75k. Chunky but it’s from £71400 for the old xc90 in PHEV form.
I was fully expecting the price to land where it has, but your comparison's a bit skewed.The launch space is still, in essence, a 35% uplift. Doesn't look like you can buy an ICE only XC90 now (?), but pretty sure these started at around the £50k-£55k mark. Mind you, the mk1 started in the £30ks IIRC...which is all partly why I expected the EX90 pricing to be £90k+...to be fair to Volvo, they did take the XC90 up a league between mk1 and mk2. If they've done similar here, then so be it.
Maybe all cars have been too cheap in the last few decades. When you look at what must go into them, being able to get brand new cars (not Volvos!) for less than £10k is pretty remarkable.
delta0 said:
At least we know the big headline number for an EV in the battery can actually be completely zero’d by using renewable energy.
Well, no. Renewables have a CO2e footprint, that includes solar, nuclear and wind. And some processes, like primary steel production, require carbon inputs.ghibbett said:
DMZ said:
On the supply, I’m not sure Volvo or Polestar have been as badly affected as the German brands. Someone I know wrote off a brand new Volvo recently and got a new one within a couple of weeks..
I have a LRDM Polestar 2 on order.Ordered August.
Current estimated delivery time: July 2023.
11 months !!!!!
Ordered 25 July
Handover booked 21st November.
Having said that, due to the chip shortage they dropped the pixel LED headlights that used to be bundled with the Pilot package. That is now (ironically) called Pilot Lite.
Murph7355 said:
Evanivitch said:
Net emissions, thanks to offsetting. Offsetting isn't a bad thing, but it's badly manipulated by marketing departments.
I'm not convinced about offsetting not being "a bad thing".I'd like to see how many of these offset schemes actually offset what they're meant to in the long term.
Murph7355 said:
I'm also not convinced it's really the point. Excessive consumption is the issue (whether one believes fully in MMGW or not). Consuming excessively and paying someone else to plant a tree doesn't seem that great an idea to me, if the aim is to save the planet
Entirely agree. A tree planted today does little for the CO2e emissions generated yesterday. It's a decade long process at least. So yes, we should be reducing emissions and where it's unavoidable we should offset.Evanivitch said:
Entirely agree. A tree planted today does little for the CO2e emissions generated yesterday. It's a decade long process at least. So yes, we should be reducing emissions and where it's unavoidable we should offset.
The problem with the latter is that it's the easy option.We are all trying to cling to a way of life that isn't very compatible with eco fundamentals (rightly or wrongly).
Personally I don't think offsetting should be counted at all. It gives politicians, especially those in wealthier countries, escape routes. Either commit or don't. Typical lack of political honesty is what we end up with.
SWoll said:
That was an average across all cars so not really a useful comparison. Toyota go for volume and sell almost 11 million cars a year globally with prices starting at £12.5k in the UK. They're doing most of their business in a far more competitive sector of the market where magins are exceptionally tight.
They also didn't start from scratch, with all the investment that entails, less than 20 years ago and are funding their own global chain of fuel stations.Edited by SWoll on Wednesday 9th November 23:00
Murph7355 said:
The problem with the latter is that it's the easy option.
We are all trying to cling to a way of life that isn't very compatible with eco fundamentals (rightly or wrongly).
Personally I don't think offsetting should be counted at all. It gives politicians, especially those in wealthier countries, escape routes. Either commit or don't. Typical lack of political honesty is what we end up with.
Perhaps offsetting should be better identified when carbon footprints are published.We are all trying to cling to a way of life that isn't very compatible with eco fundamentals (rightly or wrongly).
Personally I don't think offsetting should be counted at all. It gives politicians, especially those in wealthier countries, escape routes. Either commit or don't. Typical lack of political honesty is what we end up with.
ghibbett said:
DMZ said:
On the supply, I’m not sure Volvo or Polestar have been as badly affected as the German brands. Someone I know wrote off a brand new Volvo recently and got a new one within a couple of weeks..
I have a LRDM Polestar 2 on order.Ordered August.
Current estimated delivery time: July 2023.
11 months !!!!!
W12GT said:
I got this email too - £1599 a month.
Given the current climate, this will be a flop. A heavily discounted flop.
Are you serious? All new flagship EV launch editions sell out, it's a done deal. They will get snapped up by people either leasing with 2% BIK (makes it more like a £50k company ICE car..) or those paying cash and writing down the value against corp tax for 2-3 years at which point they will sell with relatively little depreciation.Given the current climate, this will be a flop. A heavily discounted flop.
The XC90 has a very loyal following amongst the middle classes, they won't struggle to max out on pre-orders for this new generation. It's the mid-range stuff, particularly ICE that is becoming a harder sell in this climate.
aestetix1 said:
BIK and leasing have buggered up pricing for everyone else. Combined with a supply shortage it's very difficult to get a reasonably priced EV if you are a cash buyer now.
Most will be salary sacrifice company cars - I'll guess at around £700 / month, incl. maintenance and insurance.That'll be largely covered by employees swapping company cars for cash allowances.
Auslander said:
aestetix1 said:
BIK and leasing have buggered up pricing for everyone else. Combined with a supply shortage it's very difficult to get a reasonably priced EV if you are a cash buyer now.
Most will be salary sacrifice company cars - I'll guess at around £700 / month, incl. maintenance and insurance.That'll be largely covered by employees swapping company cars for cash allowances.
An affordable car is not a right. It's upto each of us to put ourselves in the position to afford what we desire, or not. No one owes any of us an affordable car on our own terms, the market dictates the price for cars and all other commodities.
You can afford what you can afford.
TheDeuce said:
That's why the average new car tends to be quite depressing. IE, a Peugeot. A car bought exclusively by people that remeber to indicate shortly after starting to turn the wheel, and endlessly attempt to merge onto motorways at 16 mph and then get stuck at the end of the slip road.
The current range of Peugeots in my experience are not depressing. Mine is a really nice place to sit, looks great, goes pretty fast, handles well, and uses no petrol for most of my journeys.There are a lot of people who seem to misunderstand how to use a slip road to build a matching speed, and who are very late or entirely absent minded with indicators, but I've not seen any correlation with Peugeot drivers - I'll see if I do from now on.
The current xc90 phev ultimate has a list price of about £83k I think and the Volvo subscription is just over £1000 a month. (I have kept looking at these for just over a year - couldn’t get finance through my company so ended up buying a 2017 xc90 phev instead. Have ordered a RRS phev as I don’t like the xc90).
The availability of the xc90 phev has fluctuated. Was about a 2-3 month wait in late 2021, then spring 2022 went out to 6 months and then a bit longer at its peak in the summer. The last time I checked it had dropped again. I also looked at buying one outright with a discount - the discounts disappeared for a while but started to appear again from around September this year.
The xc90 phev bik is 8%. The RRS is 5% (specced the opposite of gangster) and the ex90 is 2%. The RRS is actually working out cheaper post tax than the xc90 ultimate would for me - the lease cost is a bit cheaper (got in before end of September when bch prices went up) and there is less tax
If the Volvo subscription is 1600 per month (that includes maintenance and tyres but not insurance) there is no way a salary sacrifice cost will be as low as 700 per month. I would have thought it will be more like 1100-1200 at best. Sticking it through my own company (which avoids salary sacrifice fees) would get me no better than about 900 per month even factoring in the increase in corp tax from next April (marginal rate 26.5%)
The starting list price for petrol xc90 I think is around £60k now. Catch a good discount and that is late 40s. The £75k starting price for the ex90 won’t be discounted any time soon
At least the ex90 has a decent size boot. But a major reason for getting a RRS (if it ever comes)
The availability of the xc90 phev has fluctuated. Was about a 2-3 month wait in late 2021, then spring 2022 went out to 6 months and then a bit longer at its peak in the summer. The last time I checked it had dropped again. I also looked at buying one outright with a discount - the discounts disappeared for a while but started to appear again from around September this year.
The xc90 phev bik is 8%. The RRS is 5% (specced the opposite of gangster) and the ex90 is 2%. The RRS is actually working out cheaper post tax than the xc90 ultimate would for me - the lease cost is a bit cheaper (got in before end of September when bch prices went up) and there is less tax
If the Volvo subscription is 1600 per month (that includes maintenance and tyres but not insurance) there is no way a salary sacrifice cost will be as low as 700 per month. I would have thought it will be more like 1100-1200 at best. Sticking it through my own company (which avoids salary sacrifice fees) would get me no better than about 900 per month even factoring in the increase in corp tax from next April (marginal rate 26.5%)
The starting list price for petrol xc90 I think is around £60k now. Catch a good discount and that is late 40s. The £75k starting price for the ex90 won’t be discounted any time soon
At least the ex90 has a decent size boot. But a major reason for getting a RRS (if it ever comes)
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