VW seems to be panicking...
Discussion
jjones said:
China is doing to the car industry what Japan did to the bike industry. EV has added another a layer of complexity to this which the Chinese manufactures seem to be able to use as an accelerator for their market share increase via price and rapidly improving quality. The British bike industry sneered at the Japanese rivals and look how that ended for them.
Except that the Japanese were making better, faster and more reliable bikes. Right now all the Chinese have going for them is cost. Which is a big thing admittedly but I wouldn't say they're producing *better* vehicles, just cheaper ones.
That said look at the South Korean companies like Kia and Hyundai, once a laughing stock producing cheap licensed copies of other cars and now producing their own models which are increasingly popular.
Whataguy said:
I've had an id3 and agree, the touch panels and weird two button switches for the windows were awful.
Thankfully I believe they've fired the person responsible for the infotainment.
They are going back to physical controls and there will be a new infotainment system coming. With a light on the volume and temperature controls.
I think the id2 is their great opportunity to make up for past errors.
They fired the group CEO. He decided that software development must fit into the development timelines of the oily bits, but because software controls everything now, that didn’t work. Now they pivoted the other way, software first.Thankfully I believe they've fired the person responsible for the infotainment.
They are going back to physical controls and there will be a new infotainment system coming. With a light on the volume and temperature controls.
I think the id2 is their great opportunity to make up for past errors.
Sheepshanks said:
Compared to ICE, the drivetrain development of an EV must be massively simpler.
Remove combustion compliance from the car and the development burden is slashed in half.So is the warranty provision.
For all their perceived ills, batteries actually make everyone's life far simpler.
Fastdruid said:
Except that the Japanese were making better, faster and more reliable bikes.
Right now all the Chinese have going for them is cost. Which is a big thing admittedly but I wouldn't say they're producing *better* vehicles, just cheaper ones.
I think it's a matter of where we are on the curve. China is obviously pushing into the budget end of the European market at the moment but I think it's only a matter of time before we see them entering the more premium segments and there's no reason to believe they can't produce cars which are just as good as the big European companies if they try. Right now all the Chinese have going for them is cost. Which is a big thing admittedly but I wouldn't say they're producing *better* vehicles, just cheaper ones.
GT9 said:
Sheepshanks said:
Compared to ICE, the drivetrain development of an EV must be massively simpler.
Remove combustion compliance from the car and the development burden is slashed in half.wyson said:
Whataguy said:
I've had an id3 and agree, the touch panels and weird two button switches for the windows were awful.
Thankfully I believe they've fired the person responsible for the infotainment.
They are going back to physical controls and there will be a new infotainment system coming. With a light on the volume and temperature controls.
I think the id2 is their great opportunity to make up for past errors.
They fired the group CEO. He decided that software development must fit into the development timelines of the oily bits, but because software controls everything now, that didn’t work. Now they pivoted the other way, software first.Thankfully I believe they've fired the person responsible for the infotainment.
They are going back to physical controls and there will be a new infotainment system coming. With a light on the volume and temperature controls.
I think the id2 is their great opportunity to make up for past errors.
it's more than hindsight, the ID series really was a mistake and contrary to all that VW stands for.
TheDeuce said:
No, I think that's an argument made chiefly by those (especially manufacturers) that are seeking a way to justify delaying the established ICE 'bans'.
The real cause of Chinese growth is price. We, either as part of the EU or outside of it, demand a very high standard of living and human rights across western Europe. Perhaps even an unaffordable and definitely sometimes unrealistic level. The Chinese don't maintain such high rights levels and as such they can produce cars and everything else for cheaper than in Europe.
The latest EV's to come from china at the c£30k mark are enough to make the likes of VW shudder. But look a little deeper, those same cars are sold domestically in china for c£10-15k. That's how cheap china can go Vs Europe manufacturers if it wants market share, and as the factories scale up that price will drop further. We in the west shunted all manufacturing of cheap tat to China so we could have all the tat we're used to whilst raising rights and working conditions at home. The Chinese now no longer just make tat though, they make cars which can go toe to toe with the likes of VW and easily compete at a lower price. We created that problem..
you've just proved my point. EU regs and Net Zero let in the Chinese.The real cause of Chinese growth is price. We, either as part of the EU or outside of it, demand a very high standard of living and human rights across western Europe. Perhaps even an unaffordable and definitely sometimes unrealistic level. The Chinese don't maintain such high rights levels and as such they can produce cars and everything else for cheaper than in Europe.
The latest EV's to come from china at the c£30k mark are enough to make the likes of VW shudder. But look a little deeper, those same cars are sold domestically in china for c£10-15k. That's how cheap china can go Vs Europe manufacturers if it wants market share, and as the factories scale up that price will drop further. We in the west shunted all manufacturing of cheap tat to China so we could have all the tat we're used to whilst raising rights and working conditions at home. The Chinese now no longer just make tat though, they make cars which can go toe to toe with the likes of VW and easily compete at a lower price. We created that problem..
Dynion Araf Uchaf said:
TheDeuce said:
We in the west shunted all manufacturing of cheap tat to China so we could have all the tat we're used to whilst raising rights and working conditions at home. The Chinese now no longer just make tat though, they make cars which can go toe to toe with the likes of VW and easily compete at a lower price. We created that problem..
you've just proved my point. EU regs and Net Zero let in the Chinese.Chinese have been able to produce quality when wanted for years. iPhone and its delightfully tight packaging one great example.
Dynion Araf Uchaf said:
TheDeuce said:
No, I think that's an argument made chiefly by those (especially manufacturers) that are seeking a way to justify delaying the established ICE 'bans'.
The real cause of Chinese growth is price. We, either as part of the EU or outside of it, demand a very high standard of living and human rights across western Europe. Perhaps even an unaffordable and definitely sometimes unrealistic level. The Chinese don't maintain such high rights levels and as such they can produce cars and everything else for cheaper than in Europe.
The latest EV's to come from china at the c£30k mark are enough to make the likes of VW shudder. But look a little deeper, those same cars are sold domestically in china for c£10-15k. That's how cheap china can go Vs Europe manufacturers if it wants market share, and as the factories scale up that price will drop further. We in the west shunted all manufacturing of cheap tat to China so we could have all the tat we're used to whilst raising rights and working conditions at home. The Chinese now no longer just make tat though, they make cars which can go toe to toe with the likes of VW and easily compete at a lower price. We created that problem..
you've just proved my point. EU regs and Net Zero let in the Chinese.The real cause of Chinese growth is price. We, either as part of the EU or outside of it, demand a very high standard of living and human rights across western Europe. Perhaps even an unaffordable and definitely sometimes unrealistic level. The Chinese don't maintain such high rights levels and as such they can produce cars and everything else for cheaper than in Europe.
The latest EV's to come from china at the c£30k mark are enough to make the likes of VW shudder. But look a little deeper, those same cars are sold domestically in china for c£10-15k. That's how cheap china can go Vs Europe manufacturers if it wants market share, and as the factories scale up that price will drop further. We in the west shunted all manufacturing of cheap tat to China so we could have all the tat we're used to whilst raising rights and working conditions at home. The Chinese now no longer just make tat though, they make cars which can go toe to toe with the likes of VW and easily compete at a lower price. We created that problem..
CABC said:
Dynion Araf Uchaf said:
TheDeuce said:
We in the west shunted all manufacturing of cheap tat to China so we could have all the tat we're used to whilst raising rights and working conditions at home. The Chinese now no longer just make tat though, they make cars which can go toe to toe with the likes of VW and easily compete at a lower price. We created that problem..
you've just proved my point. EU regs and Net Zero let in the Chinese.Chinese have been able to produce quality when wanted for years. iPhone and its delightfully tight packaging one great example.
kambites said:
I'm not an expert, but I don't think that's quite so true anymore because generally speaking manufacturers these days produce one or two engines for 20 or 30 models. For example I doubt the per-unit cost of homologating the VAG 2.0 TSI engine is very high simply because there's so many units sold.
In part, this is due to the death of diesel, which carried a huge overhead that couldn't actually deliver on what they promised. On average, Euro 6 diesels missed the NOx target by a factor a 5 and CO2 targets by about 30%.
It was just an appalling waste of money to extensively develop, cheat, get caught and then get fined for it.
I don't hate many things, but I'm willing to use that word for diesel cars.
DaveGrohl said:
VW have really fekked up their own company for reasons best known to themselves. I still have one of the original Mk7 Golf Rs. Absolutely fabulous bit of kit. They hit the sweet spot right there. Then they fiddled and made the Mk7.5 which I was distinctly meh about. I might’ve changed but decided it was a tiny step in the wrong direction.
Then came the Mk8. It’s just nasty, cheaper to make, big jump in prices, horrific user-interface, never mind ugly. I lost interest in VW at that point. Then came the ID3. Awfulness on four strange wheels. What happened to all the people at VW that knew what they were doing? They seem to have vanished off the face of the Earth.
Had a 7 R. Then got a 7.5 R. Then got an 8 R-Line and promptly went back to a 7.5 R (after a short stint in an RS3)Then came the Mk8. It’s just nasty, cheaper to make, big jump in prices, horrific user-interface, never mind ugly. I lost interest in VW at that point. Then came the ID3. Awfulness on four strange wheels. What happened to all the people at VW that knew what they were doing? They seem to have vanished off the face of the Earth.
You are totally right.
hunt123 said:
I wonder how reliable and rust proof these chinese EV's will prove to be because if it's anything like their motorbikes it'll be less than good.
I certainly wouldn't want to own one - lease (or PCP, intending to hand it back) fine, but not own. Never mind hardware, all it needs is a software glitch and the car is stuffed. Imagine that when the car is a few years old.
Sheepshanks said:
hunt123 said:
I wonder how reliable and rust proof these chinese EV's will prove to be because if it's anything like their motorbikes it'll be less than good.
I certainly wouldn't want to own one - lease (or PCP, intending to hand it back) fine, but not own. Never mind hardware, all it needs is a software glitch and the car is stuffed. Imagine that when the car is a few years old.
Mechanical fatigue and ageing, or poor bodywork, remain far more likely to kill a car than the computer hardware/software regardless of age.
I strongly suspect the current crop of Chinese cars will have no problem getting to the 100k/10 year mark without rusting or failing in any significant way - it's simply not that difficult to achieve that much these days, or even double that number of miles. Beyond that, who cares? Shed buyers don't affect new car buyers purchasing choices and no one gives a toss about residuals when talking about cars that have already had a decades worth of use. Apart from the afore mentioned shed buyers.
Sheepshanks said:
hunt123 said:
I wonder how reliable and rust proof these chinese EV's will prove to be because if it's anything like their motorbikes it'll be less than good.
I certainly wouldn't want to own one - lease (or PCP, intending to hand it back) fine, but not own. Never mind hardware, all it needs is a software glitch and the car is stuffed. Imagine that when the car is a few years old.
Sheepshanks said:
I certainly wouldn't want to own one - lease (or PCP, intending to hand it back) fine, but not own.
Never mind hardware, all it needs is a software glitch and the car is stuffed. Imagine that when the car is a few years old.
Exactly why I won’t consider any current VAG product. Someone recently posted about the latest gen Touareg he got, dying constantly and randomly, he ended up rejecting the car and going for the previous gen Touareg with older, less integrated systems. Loads of poor reviews and electronic reliability reports too, across the whole VAG portfolio. Not to mention they sacked the CEO because of them.Never mind hardware, all it needs is a software glitch and the car is stuffed. Imagine that when the car is a few years old.
Edited by wyson on Thursday 27th July 18:11
wyson said:
Sheepshanks said:
I certainly wouldn't want to own one - lease (or PCP, intending to hand it back) fine, but not own.
Never mind hardware, all it needs is a software glitch and the car is stuffed. Imagine that when the car is a few years old.
Exactly why I won’t consider any current VAG product. Someone recently posted about the latest gen Touareg he got, dying constantly and randomly, he ended up rejecting the car and going for the previous gen Touareg with older, less integrated systems. Loads of poor reviews and electronic reliability reports too, across the whole VAG portfolio. Not to mention they sacked the CEO because of them.Never mind hardware, all it needs is a software glitch and the car is stuffed. Imagine that when the car is a few years old.
Edited by wyson on Thursday 27th July 18:11
I've never really understood why BMW and Mercedes managed about 20 years ago to start to make big inroads and learnings into such systems but VW seemed to not be interested. I understand that they make 'normal cars for normal people' but they share systems with Audi, who are a premium brand, and as a result Audi have always lagged behind BMW and Merc in that respect too. I remember going to look at an A6 3.0 Tdi Quattro in 2005 (a very desirable car back then), it said it had sat nav but there was no screen - I asked the sales guy about it and he said 'it's just text instructions in the cluster, but you can have voice instructions too'. With that I got back into my 2003 Accord with DVD player, full colour touch-widescreen nav and all the 'normal' mid noughties exec car stuff, and left.
It's as if VW/VAG have no ability to look ahead at trends in their own marketplace. They should be directing industry, not playing catch up.
ashleyman said:
DaveGrohl said:
VW have really fekked up their own company for reasons best known to themselves. I still have one of the original Mk7 Golf Rs. Absolutely fabulous bit of kit. They hit the sweet spot right there. Then they fiddled and made the Mk7.5 which I was distinctly meh about. I might’ve changed but decided it was a tiny step in the wrong direction.
Then came the Mk8. It’s just nasty, cheaper to make, big jump in prices, horrific user-interface, never mind ugly. I lost interest in VW at that point. Then came the ID3. Awfulness on four strange wheels. What happened to all the people at VW that knew what they were doing? They seem to have vanished off the face of the Earth.
Had a 7 R. Then got a 7.5 R. Then got an 8 R-Line and promptly went back to a 7.5 R (after a short stint in an RS3)Then came the Mk8. It’s just nasty, cheaper to make, big jump in prices, horrific user-interface, never mind ugly. I lost interest in VW at that point. Then came the ID3. Awfulness on four strange wheels. What happened to all the people at VW that knew what they were doing? They seem to have vanished off the face of the Earth.
You are totally right.
I could quite easily see myself in a Hyundai or Kia sometime, need an N model a size down from the new Ionic 5N.
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