VW seems to be panicking...

[TheDeuce]

DaveGrohl said:

ashleyman said:

DaveGrohl said:

VW have really fekked up their own company for reasons best known to themselves. I still have one of the original Mk7 Golf Rs. Absolutely fabulous bit of kit. They hit the sweet spot right there. Then they fiddled and made the Mk7.5 which I was distinctly meh about. I might’ve changed but decided it was a tiny step in the wrong direction.

Then came the Mk8. It’s just nasty, cheaper to make, big jump in prices, horrific user-interface, never mind ugly. I lost interest in VW at that point. Then came the ID3. Awfulness on four strange wheels. What happened to all the people at VW that knew what they were doing? They seem to have vanished off the face of the Earth.

Had a 7 R. Then got a 7.5 R. Then got an 8 R-Line and promptly went back to a 7.5 R (after a short stint in an RS3)

You are totally right.

Such a shame, as I said, they’d perfected that car. Why do people have fiddle?

I could quite easily see myself in a Hyundai or Kia sometime, need an N model a size down from the new Ionic 5N.

The irony is I think the Koreans and the Chinese took a better look at why the Golf MK7 worked than VW themselves did..

It was a lovely evolution of the Golf's before, it tidied up previous bloat and had nice lines and moved the tech on a decent level. I loved the fact they all had radar cruise, it was a selling point of the MK7 that it had all the new tech, a lot of it as standard. But tech moved on rapidly - VW did not. They just went.. weird with their designs.

All VW cars since have failed on the looks and also the tech level/competency of tech. The new cars from the east however.. They're doing a bloody good job on both counts and are starting to flip peoples perceptions of where their money is best spent.

VW are teasing the automotive death spiral - that's what happens when the cars become dull and all of a sudden they're driven mostly by the old fart 'ohh.. VW cars are always safe and sensible' brigade. Appealing to that audience by not keeping pace with the desires of younger buyers is always suicide. The old folk never minded that Rover was a bit behind the curve, they just loved a Rover! Everyone drives a Rover don't they!? Hello...? Do they still make cars...!? Nurse are Rover still in busin.... Nurse... I've pissed myself again

Tongue in cheek of course, VW are a powerhouse compared to Rover but this episode of stalled market awareness needs to be recovered from rapidly. Giants can fall if they rely solely upon being a giant. They have to start being a very clever giant. They made the Golf great again with the MK7, make the next generation of cars great again - and sack off the ID range and brand, that's an ID best forgotten ASAP.

[TheDeuce]

DMZ said:

It seems VW thought they had to copy Tesla and they stopped doing all the things they were good at. All very strange. Considering VW was never a powertrain brand really, you’d think a transition to EVs should have been quite smooth.

Copying Tesla could have worked given VW's scale if they had at least matched the desirability of a Tesla on more points than they fell short of it.

It's no fun driving an VW ID with a scant interior 'because Tesla got away with it', because Tesla got away with it because their cars are fun to drive in a carefree way, the ID range is not fun, it feels restrained and sensible. Tesla got away with a scant interior because they put a whopping great touchscreen in the centre of the car - there's your interior, look - it does everything amazingly well! VW went with a screen that is a bit crap and hardware/software that does everything in a bit of a crap way.

[fatjon]

VAG will be fine if they up their game. They re behind and trying to sell inferior stuff at premium prices and reliant on brand loyalty to do it. I sat in all of them when my Audi was due for replacement and none of them came close to persuading me not to buy an EV6 GT which is not sentence I ever expected to utter. Some were as good in many ways but as good at double the price.
I think VAG has the financial muscle to get back to the drawing board and make cars that people want at a price they will pay but relying on loyalty is a mugs fame.

[wyson]

Problem is, they are struggling to up their game. Was a really good interview with senior VW executives in one of the car mags. Producing electric cars needs a massive cultural shift, VW is firmly rooted in engineering, when it needs to become a tech company. Loads of people in the firm would have made their reputations on doing things the old way, the pinnacle of which is the Golf Mk7. Now they hired 5000 software engineers and are trying to pivot to become like Tesla, trying to drag all those old skool people and structures along with them. This is very difficult and companies do go bankrupt because they can’t transform.

Kodak is one of the most famous examples, they invented the digital imaging sensor, in one of their innovation labs, but the firm was so entrenched in film, its firm wide adoption was rejected, they saw film as their strength and that is what they were sticking to. If they went all in at that time, they could have become one of the tech bohemoths, but they went bankrupt as film use declined, had to restructure and are basically a shell of their former selves, having a market cap of a few hundred million.

The VW group execs know with electrification the writing is on the wall for them in the same way and will be well aware of the graveyard of companies that couldn’t cope with new ways of doing things, which is almost all of them.

Its a widely studied phenomenon, economists call it capitalisms creative destruction. All the incumbents know what’s coming and are going through the same things as VW. Lots of car firms won’t be around by 2040, or much reduced, stuck to emerging markets without zero carbon legislation.

Edited by wyson on Friday 28th July 09:14

[Mark V GTD]

I owned about 8 different Golf’s over the years, plus many other VAG products. Last year I bought an id3.

As said above - VW completely dropped the ball with this. Ugly looks, dated 90’s style interior, clumsy controls. And to say the software is a bit crap is flattering the thing. Got rid after 2 months.

I see they are now ramping down Id production and postponing the launch of the id7 so perhaps the penny has dropped and they now realise they got it completely wrong.

All I wanted was an e-Golf Mk.7 with 250 mile range.

Edited by Mark V GTD on Friday 28th July 08:25

[cptsideways]

I'm still amazed at just how the test press miss out mentioning just how bad some cars really are. A serious bout of honesty is required. For so long manufacturers have been hiding the turd behind the glovebox & washing over the dreadful systems.

Without a doubt the very best nav infotainment system is the Google Automotive system (I'll include Tesla as it's also google background system) & has been for a couple of years. This limits your choice somewhat but more & more are getting it.

And buttons we need proper buttons.

I'd say without a doubt the current industry leader is Polestar. VAG & JLR are both at the bottom of the very big pile.

[wyson]

cptsideways said:

I'm still amazed at just how the test press miss out mentioning just how bad some cars really are. A serious bout of honesty is required. For so long manufacturers have been hiding the turd behind the glovebox & washing over the dreadful systems.

Without a doubt the very best nav infotainment system is the Google Automotive system (I'll include Tesla as it's also google background system) & has been for a couple of years. This limits your choice somewhat but more & more are getting it.

And buttons we need proper buttons.

I'd say without a doubt the current industry leader is Polestar. VAG & JLR are both at the bottom of the very big pile.

The press are basically marketing arms of the car companies. They know they can only take the criticism so far before they risk their relationship with the car firms and being excluded from events.

Exactly the same with tech. The Unboxtherapy guy is barred from Apple events, launches, doesn’t get pre production review units in advance because he publicised bendgate with the iPhone 6. I mean a phone that bends in your pocket from normal use is a bit of an oversight, he stuck his neck out and paid the consequences.

Edited by wyson on Friday 28th July 15:48

[Don Veloci]

I recall sitting on a coach through Wolfsburg and can't imagine the hole left of that beast dying. That's not even accounting for the other plants in other countries.
But the beast will die unless they turn it around. Can't see another VW beyond my mk7.

[soupdragon1]

dxg said:

Well worth a watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2hdSMlaoBg

So a youtuber who predicts the end is nigh for Ford, VW, Dodge, Ram - in fact, everyone is going die except Tesla, is 'worth a watch'?

Forgive me if I don't.

VW have some hurdles, no doubt about that, as do Ford, Dodge, Ram, Stellantis and (whisper it) Tesla

Everyone has difficulties to overcome, its just business. Same goes for Meta, Microsoft in the tech world, Screwfix, McDonalds....in fact, show me a company that has no hurdles and is on the yellow brick road to the land of milk and honey.

[Sheepshanks]

cptsideways said:

I'm still amazed at just how the test press miss out mentioning just how bad some cars really are. A serious bout of honesty is required. For so long manufacturers have been hiding the turd behind the glovebox & washing over the dreadful systems.

Remember who used to own PH? (and owns WhatCar): https://www.inpublishing.co.uk/articles/haymarket-...

[TheDeuce]

Mark V GTD said:

I owned about 8 different Golf’s over the years, plus many other VAG products. Last year I bought an id3.

As said above - VW completely dropped the ball with this. Ugly looks, dated 90’s style interior, clumsy controls. And to say the software is a bit crap is flattering the thing. Got rid after 2 months.

I see they are now ramping down Id production and postponing the launch of the id7 so perhaps the penny has dropped and they now realise they got it completely wrong.

All I wanted was an e-Golf Mk.7 with 250 mile range.

Edited by Mark V GTD on Friday 28th July 08:25

You and every VW lifer wanted and had reason to expect that exact car would follow the stop-gap Golf e. It should have been possible - in fact, look - here it is: https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-news/first-offic... (it's just VW didn't make it)

Technically more of an electric Golf R, but quicker, for around £35k and bound to be cheaper via lease. 239m WLTP.

You could order one of those and a couple of spare VW badges to superglue to the bumpers

[CABC]

Sheepshanks said:

cptsideways said:

I'm still amazed at just how the test press miss out mentioning just how bad some cars really are. A serious bout of honesty is required. For so long manufacturers have been hiding the turd behind the glovebox & washing over the dreadful systems.

Remember who used to own PH? (and owns WhatCar): https://www.inpublishing.co.uk/articles/haymarket-...

because of this thread I just looked up the Autocar review of the ID3 from a year ago
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/volkswagen/id...

reads like somebody who wants to drive a GTi but forced to endure serial vanilla EVs. review lists a bunch of niggles with both this car and EVs in general. not inspiring, but not overly critical of VW either. difficult times for car journos.

[Sheepshanks]

CABC said:

Sheepshanks said:

cptsideways said:

I'm still amazed at just how the test press miss out mentioning just how bad some cars really are. A serious bout of honesty is required. For so long manufacturers have been hiding the turd behind the glovebox & washing over the dreadful systems.

Remember who used to own PH? (and owns WhatCar): https://www.inpublishing.co.uk/articles/haymarket-...

because of this thread I just looked up the Autocar review of the ID3 from a year ago
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/volkswagen/id...

reads like somebody who wants to drive a GTi but forced to endure serial vanilla EVs. review lists a bunch of niggles with both this car and EVs in general. not inspiring, but not overly critical of VW either. difficult times for car journos.

There was a case a few years ago - may be longer than I think - which caused shock waves (no pun intended) amongst reviewers when a yacht magazine was ordered to pay (I think) £1M after writing a scathing review.

[Mark V GTD]

TheDeuce said:

You could order one of those and a couple of spare VW badges to superglue to the bumpers

Lol, you make a good point! Anyway I’m staying clear of electric after my two month foray last year. Petrol Tiguan awaits on 1st September :-))

[pixelmix]

Hard to argue with a lot of the above - they have definitely lost their way but there are signs of hope in the ID2.

We have a Mk7 GTI and a T6 Caravelle in the family. The former was bought brand new 8 years ago. I half thought about a Mk7.5 but it wasn't much of a change. The Mk8 does nothing for us so we'll look after the Mk7 until it dies or some other factor forces a change.

I looked at the iD3 in the showroom when it came out but it was never going to be a GTI replacement for us.

The Caravelle isn't fantastically well bolted together (but it is 8 years old) and very useful. I wouldn't be averse to an ID Buzz but even on that they have lost their way a bit: it is far less practical than the Carvelle which has a massive flat floor for bikes and kids. Maybe the LWB will be better (if it gets updated interior tech) but I'll need to solider on with the T6 for a bit longer. So essentially (potential of the LWB ID Buzz aside) VW currently make nothing for me.

The ID2 looks promising: a return to simpler styling and a chance to fix the interior and crap tech. I thought the ID3 and ID Buzz might be decent though, so I'll not get too hopeful until it actually comes out.

For a company the size of VW, they do have the ability to turn it around. Remember that the Mk4 Golf was a turd but the Mk 5, 6 and 7 were well regarded. A lot of Germans will be loyal to the group if they can get their act together quickly enough, and I'm sure a lot of people like me will be unwilling to buy a car from companies like BYD who have no proven track record

[Nickbrapp]

pixelmix said:

Hard to argue with a lot of the above - they have definitely lost their way but there are signs of hope in the ID2.

We have a Mk7 GTI and a T6 Caravelle in the family. The former was bought brand new 8 years ago. I half thought about a Mk7.5 but it wasn't much of a change. The Mk8 does nothing for us so we'll look after the Mk7 until it dies or some other factor forces a change.

I looked at the iD3 in the showroom when it came out but it was never going to be a GTI replacement for us.

The Caravelle isn't fantastically well bolted together (but it is 8 years old) and very useful. I wouldn't be averse to an ID Buzz but even on that they have lost their way a bit: it is far less practical than the Carvelle which has a massive flat floor for bikes and kids. Maybe the LWB will be better (if it gets updated interior tech) but I'll need to solider on with the T6 for a bit longer. So essentially (potential of the LWB ID Buzz aside) VW currently make nothing for me.

The ID2 looks promising: a return to simpler styling and a chance to fix the interior and crap tech. I thought the ID3 and ID Buzz might be decent though, so I'll not get too hopeful until it actually comes out.

For a company the size of VW, they do have the ability to turn it around. Remember that the Mk4 Golf was a turd but the Mk 5, 6 and 7 were well regarded. A lot of Germans will be loyal to the group if they can get their act together quickly enough, and I'm sure a lot of people like me will be unwilling to buy a car from companies like BYD who have no proven track record

The issue is the caravelle is a van, the ID buzz is a ID3 under the skin so they are no where near as practical, although have a nicer driving position

[Mark V GTD]

No it was the mk3 Golf that was a bit crap. The Mk.4 was a fine car.

[bomster]

I test drove an ID3 a few days ago and really enjoyed it. Cabin is sparse, but it drove really well. Suspension felt good, cornered really well (considering the weight), accelerated well enough off junctions and roundabouts to put a smile on my face. Software seemed good and had a nice UI. I also think it's a really good looking car.

Not really sure where all the negativity comes from for the car.

[Sheepshanks]

bomster said:

I test drove an ID3 a few days ago and really enjoyed it. Cabin is sparse, but it drove really well. Suspension felt good, cornered really well (considering the weight), accelerated well enough off junctions and roundabouts to put a smile on my face. Software seemed good and had a nice UI. I also think it's a really good looking car.

Not really sure where all the negativity comes from for the car.

I had one as a loaner for a couple of days last month. Was very new - 600 miles on it. Car was lifted by having a full glass roof but they told me the list price of the car was £40K. Used ones a couple of years old can still be £30K - I was expecting high teens.

Never driven an EV before and I was quite happy with one-foot driving. It did seem very appliance like though - without the glass roof it would have been just plain boring.

It did throw up quite a few warnings - lights and messages - which was somewhat disconcerting. The salesman showing it to us before we drove off couldn't get the a/c to go off (it just wouldn't respond to the button) so he talked us through it with the fan going flat out blowing freezing air.

Edited by Sheepshanks on Saturday 29th July 10:04

[Flooble]

Mark V GTD said:

TheDeuce said:

You could order one of those and a couple of spare VW badges to superglue to the bumpers

Lol, you make a good point! Anyway I’m staying clear of electric after my two month foray last year. Petrol Tiguan awaits on 1st September :-))

And this is a perfect example of why VAG will be just fine - they have incredible brand loyalty, to the extent they can have multiple misfires but their customers will keep coming back anyway!