What they don't tell you about electric cars

[nick1871]

moktabe said:

eldar said:

ajap1979 said:

moktabe said:

ATG said:

moktabe said:

nick1871 said:

moktabe said:

Almost as much as the endless stream of EV stuff.

You know you’re reading the EV section, right?

And?

Even ICE threads get the constant guff.

Right?

Except they don't. But apart from that ...

But apart from that....

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

But that’s literally an EV thread. Was that the best example of an ICE thread gone wrong that you could find?

The perfect example of old men shaking their fists at clouds. Do carry on.

Could be worse though...

I could have my head stuck up my plug socket.

Do carry on.

It’s like interacting with a child that just repeats what you say back at you..

Ah yes, it’s half term. Say no more.

[M4cruiser]

timbo999 said:

Put the £300/annum you're not paying in VED into a high interest account and use it to buy a new battery every 10 years... and you're ahead 'cos you've earned interest on your savings...

What have I missed?

Yes, this is exactly it. You haven't missed it, but I guess many owners will.

[moktabe]

nick1871 said:

moktabe said:

eldar said:

ajap1979 said:

moktabe said:

ATG said:

moktabe said:

nick1871 said:

moktabe said:

Almost as much as the endless stream of EV stuff.

You know you’re reading the EV section, right?

And?

Even ICE threads get the constant guff.

Right?

Except they don't. But apart from that ...

But apart from that....

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

But that’s literally an EV thread. Was that the best example of an ICE thread gone wrong that you could find?

The perfect example of old men shaking their fists at clouds. Do carry on.

Could be worse though...

I could have my head stuck up my plug socket.

Do carry on.

It’s like interacting with a child that just repeats what you say back at you..

Ah yes, it’s half term. Say no more.

Grow up you muppet.

If you and your like keep talking down to someone who has the temerity to disagree then don't complain when someone gives you the same attitude back.

Edited by moktabe on Monday 12th February 17:59

[M4cruiser]

Murph7355 said:

The really enlightening thing is though that there are examples on the internet PEOPLE!

That's to save me quoting examples which will become "404 not found".

Murph7355 said:

(Because ICE cars never, ever incur large bills. No sir. Never).

The point is that they do, but the bills tend to be smaller and more frequent, if the car is maintained properly. EVs will give a big bill despite maintenance. (Just like a hard disk failing for no reason, there was no need to oil the bearings ....) Remember that I'm talking about ordinary runabouts here, not JLRs that need a crankshaft due to poor quality, or BMWs timing chain failures for £4,000.

[M4cruiser]

Discombobulate said:

Where did that 3k battery repair bill every 10 years (on average) come from? I struggle to believe that.
You know they are nearly all warranted for 8 years so any repairs are free? Unlike the engines in most ICE cars after 3 years.

^ Not true. Repairs may not be free. In a Leaf, if a battery module goes bad you have to pay for it if the dash display still shows more than 9 bars, and that can happen.

[M4cruiser]

CheesecakeRunner said:

M4cruiser said:

wibble

Nobody cares.

You're right.

[M4cruiser]

trakracer said:

TheDeuce said:

M4cruiser said:

1. They are cheap to run until something breaks, then they cost a lot.

Example: Changing your old petrol hatchback for a second-hand EV like a Leaf/Zoe/Corsa/208/Niro/E-Up etc:-
Saves you up to £300 per year road tax;
Saves you up to 20p per mile on "fuel" (depends a lot on previous mpg and electric supplier deal)
Saves you maintenance like oil changes, cambelt changes etc .
But:-
When the battery goes wrong it costs at least £3,000 to repair. Expect 1 repair on average in 10 years.


2. There aren't enough qualified mechanics to cope with the current repair demand.

When the HV system goes wrong, you may find a 3-month wait to book it in.

So: Ask questions on the above things before you buy.
There are examples on the internet, just use Google.

As per your examples, the EV is overall far cheaper to own.

That's actually great advice for people, thanks for sharing

Umm, £300 per year spread over 10 years to repair the battery
Saves you £300 per year in road tax

So it's cost neutral before you even consider the huge fuel savings (£2,000 per year if you do 10,000 miles pa)

Are you for or against EV's?

No, I'm not for or against EVs.
I'm raising the profile of some information which is out there amongst some unfortunate owners (who thought their EV would be cheaper to run than it's turned out to be).
Yes, on average it should still be cheaper.
Thanks for pointing out what I said!

[M4cruiser]

TheDeuce said:

I'm for EV's

I'm confused by your post. I said the EV was far cheaper overall, you've explained why that's correct as if it wasn't already obvious to me..?

The only surprise is that it somehow wasn't obvious to the OP that their example makes a very strong case for swapping to a used EV immediately. In a ten year period you could easily be £20k up, mileage dependant, and luck plays it's part with all ageing cars I guess.

Um, it was obvious to the OP. I can do basic arithmetic. The risk of those events (probability) are not so easy to compute. I'm adding information to those who quote only the basic costs differential, and never add in the HV repairs.

Also, I'm intrigued that no one has responded to original point number 2.

[TheDeuce]

M4cruiser said:

trakracer said:

TheDeuce said:

M4cruiser said:

1. They are cheap to run until something breaks, then they cost a lot.

Example: Changing your old petrol hatchback for a second-hand EV like a Leaf/Zoe/Corsa/208/Niro/E-Up etc:-
Saves you up to £300 per year road tax;
Saves you up to 20p per mile on "fuel" (depends a lot on previous mpg and electric supplier deal)
Saves you maintenance like oil changes, cambelt changes etc .
But:-
When the battery goes wrong it costs at least £3,000 to repair. Expect 1 repair on average in 10 years.


2. There aren't enough qualified mechanics to cope with the current repair demand.

When the HV system goes wrong, you may find a 3-month wait to book it in.

So: Ask questions on the above things before you buy.
There are examples on the internet, just use Google.

As per your examples, the EV is overall far cheaper to own.

That's actually great advice for people, thanks for sharing

Umm, £300 per year spread over 10 years to repair the battery
Saves you £300 per year in road tax

So it's cost neutral before you even consider the huge fuel savings (£2,000 per year if you do 10,000 miles pa)

Are you for or against EV's?

No, I'm not for or against EVs.
I'm raising the profile of some information which is out there amongst some unfortunate owners (who thought their EV would be cheaper to run than it's turned out to be).
Yes, on average it should still be cheaper.
Thanks for pointing out what I said!

But you haven't done that - you haven't posted anything which isn't very obvious.. any car can break down and need some form of repair.

You haven't presented anything that suggests an EV will actually cost more to repair/maintain than an ICE of the same age, same period of ownership. As you said yourself a few posts ago, yes ICE cars go wrong too but tend to cost less to repair - but overall the cost just as much and even if you dispute that, they would need to cost thousands of pounds less to repair a year to compare to overall EV savings for an average motorist.

I don't see how any of what you have contributed can help anyone.

[M4cruiser]

TheDeuce said:

You haven't presented anything that suggests an EV will actually cost more to repair/maintain than an ICE of the same age, same period of ownership.

The point is the time difference, as well as the cost difference.

TheDeuce said:

As you said yourself a few posts ago, yes ICE cars go wrong too but tend to cost less to repair - but overall the cost just as much and even if you dispute that, they would need to cost thousands of pounds less to repair a year to compare to overall EV savings for an average motorist.

It's very hard to actually compare "like with like". The nearest I can come up with is Nissan Leaf vs Pulsar, or perhaps Corsa-E vs Corsa. But that's not really the point, which is: do you expect to save significant money changing an old ICE for a newer EV? The publicity is yes, the reality is probably, but not as much as stated. Rarely if ever do you see clarity on the HV system repairs, which are real.

TheDeuce said:

I don't see how any of what you have contributed can help anyone.

That's fine, as with all posts on here, some things will help some people, feel free to ignore.

[Megaflow]

Discombobulate said:

M4cruiser said:

1. They are cheap to run until something breaks, then they cost a lot.

Example: Changing your old petrol hatchback for a second-hand EV like a Leaf/Zoe/Corsa/208/Niro/E-Up etc:-
Saves you up to £300 per year road tax;
Saves you up to 20p per mile on "fuel" (depends a lot on previous mpg and electric supplier deal)
Saves you maintenance like oil changes, cambelt changes etc .
But:-
When the battery goes wrong it costs at least £3,000 to repair. Expect 1 repair on average in 10 years.


2. There aren't enough qualified mechanics to cope with the current repair demand.

When the HV system goes wrong, you may find a 3-month wait to book it in.

So: Ask questions on the above things before you buy.
There are examples on the internet, just use Google.

Where did that 3k battery repair bill every 10 years (on average) come from? I struggle to believe that.
You know they are nearly all warranted for 8 years so any repairs are free? Unlike the engines in most ICE cars after 3 years.

As far as I can tell, the battery being dead at 10 years old seems to come from the warranty on a battery typically being 8-10 years.

So by the same logic an ICE needs a new engine at 5 years ish.

[TheDeuce]

M4cruiser said:

TheDeuce said:

You haven't presented anything that suggests an EV will actually cost more to repair/maintain than an ICE of the same age, same period of ownership.

The point is the time difference, as well as the cost difference.

TheDeuce said:

As you said yourself a few posts ago, yes ICE cars go wrong too but tend to cost less to repair - but overall the cost just as much and even if you dispute that, they would need to cost thousands of pounds less to repair a year to compare to overall EV savings for an average motorist.

It's very hard to actually compare "like with like". The nearest I can come up with is Nissan Leaf vs Pulsar, or perhaps Corsa-E vs Corsa. But that's not really the point, which is: do you expect to save significant money changing an old ICE for a newer EV? The publicity is yes, the reality is probably, but not as much as stated. Rarely if ever do you see clarity on the HV system repairs, which are real.

TheDeuce said:

I don't see how any of what you have contributed can help anyone.

That's fine, as with all posts on here, some things will help some people, feel free to ignore.

You haven't quantified anything in terms of repair costs or frequency.

Even in your worst case scenario of a battery pack repair being required, the rest of your example made it very obvious the EV is still cheaper for the ownership period you defined.

I don't understand how you think pointing out that running an old car could results in repair costs is useful news for anyone at all.

[Megaflow]

M4cruiser said:

1. They are cheap to run until something breaks, then they cost a lot.

Example: Changing your old petrol hatchback for a second-hand EV like a Leaf/Zoe/Corsa/208/Niro/E-Up etc:-
Saves you up to £300 per year road tax;
Saves you up to 20p per mile on "fuel" (depends a lot on previous mpg and electric supplier deal)
Saves you maintenance like oil changes, cambelt changes etc .
But:-
When the battery goes wrong it costs at least £3,000 to repair. Expect 1 repair on average in 10 years.

To clarify, using your numbers, you save £300 a year on tax, over 10 years is £3000 plus £0.20 per mile, at let’s say 10k a year, is another £20,000 over 10 years, a total saving of £23,000. But they are more expensive to run because I might need a £3000 battery repair… last time I looked £23000 was more than £3000.

I really hope the OP is a troll and this isn’t a true reflection of the general level of intelligence these days!

Edited by Megaflow on Monday 12th February 19:28

[Megaflow]

Oh, and a battery repair shouldn’t cost anything like £3000 at 10 years old.

A battery is made up of a series of modules, these modules are very easy to swap, and a typical module will cost about £1000 for most of the mainstream models.

https://www.secondlife-evbatteries.com/collections...

[timberman]

WonkeyDonkey said:

I don't own an EV but all the anti ev stuff is nauseating.

I just bought one and I agree

[Turtle Shed]

Coming up on ten years of ownership of my Leaf. 74k miles. Had it from new

It's needed a wheel bearing and tyres.

Battery probably at 80% of original capacity but as almost every trip is 20 miles at most it matters not one jot.

Expect it to do another 70k miles with ease.

Also, EVs are (for average Joe's like me) lovely to drive.

[Megaflow]

Turtle Shed said:

Coming up on ten years of ownership of my Leaf. 74k miles. Had it from new

It's needed a wheel bearing and tyres.

Battery probably at 80% of original capacity but as almost every trip is 20 miles at most it matters not one jot.

Expect it to do another 70k miles with ease.

Also, EVs are (for average Joe's like me) lovely to drive.

This is why I can't understand the hatred against them. For the average Joe they are so perfect for the job in hand.

Average mileage in the UK is now only 19 miles a day, you get to do those 19 miles in a car which always has a full 'tank' when you leave the house, is almost perfectly smooth and quiet, almost Rolls Royce levels and that costs almost nothing to run. What is not to like?

I am a certified petrol head of the highest order, and I love fast cars, however for a daily driver an electric car is the perfect solution.

[Fastlane]

Megaflow said:

This is why I can't understand the hatred against them. For the average Joe they are so perfect for the job in hand.

Average mileage in the UK is now only 19 miles a day, you get to do those 19 miles in a car which always has a full 'tank' when you leave the house, is almost perfectly smooth and quiet, almost Rolls Royce levels and that costs almost nothing to run. What is not to like?

I am a certified petrol head of the highest order, and I love fast cars, however for a daily driver an electric car is the perfect solution.

The hatred (as opposed to cynicism) for EVs is of course irrational and mostly from men of a certain age who spend a large proportion of their lives talking about cars and don't embrace change in any aspect of their lives. Fortunately, that is a fairly small demographic (although they are quite vocal on here) but seemingly getting smaller as even they realise that change is happening whether or not they like it. For those who won't accept it yet, they like to "educate" actual EV owners on their latest anti-EV epiphany (care of the gutter/right wing press, social media, random PR article, YouTube, a bloke down the pub etc. etc.) whilst simultaneously implying that they are better drivers/lovers/men because they don't drive an EV. It's all rather pathetic...

[ZesPak]

In this thread...

[M4cruiser]

Megaflow said:

To clarify, using your numbers, you save £300 a year on tax, over 10 years is £3000 plus £0.20 per mile, at let’s say 10k a year, is another £20,000 over 10 years, a total saving of £23,000. But they are more expensive to run because I might need a £3000 battery repair… last time I looked £23000 was more than £3000.

I really hope the OP is a troll and this isn’t a true reflection of the general level of intelligence these days!

Edited by Megaflow on Monday 12th February 19:28

Try reading my original post, I didn't say they are more expensive to run than petrol cars. I am saying they are more expensive to run than the "sales force" tell you, because they never tell you about the HV repairs.