What they don't tell you about electric cars

[tamore]

M4cruiser said:

It will take time for the relative volumes of faults like this to be established. Yes, petrol cars have problems too, but the ability to apply a workaround is more easily understood. On my old petrol car the "charging socket" failed, i.e. the petrol filler pipe rusted through and failed the MoT. The garage were able to source a similar replacement (even though it wasn't the official part). In fact any metal pipe could have been fabricated into the right shape. That same garage won't work on HV systems.

won't or currently don't?

[autumnsum]

G-wiz said:

What Car exposing 'unrepresentative' electric car ranges:

https://www.whatcar.com/news/inaccuracy-of-officia...

Elon might have gone nuts, but Tesla absolutely won that by a crazy margin on efficiency.

[PSRG]

G-wiz said:

What Car exposing 'unrepresentative' electric car ranges:

https://www.whatcar.com/news/inaccuracy-of-officia...

Published ranges are generally way off what’s actually achievable in the real world, but they have to follow the standards set out in the regs - they don’t just make the rules up themselves. It’s the same for ICE cars…how many really achieve the published fuel economy figures? None of my cars have ever achieved the published figures long-term. Sure, some journeys I beat it. But my E250 cdi has an ‘official’ consumption of 56mpg. It’s achieved 42 mpg over 30,000 miles.

[M4cruiser]

tamore said:

M4cruiser said:

It will take time for the relative volumes of faults like this to be established. Yes, petrol cars have problems too, but the ability to apply a workaround is more easily understood. On my old petrol car the "charging socket" failed, i.e. the petrol filler pipe rusted through and failed the MoT. The garage were able to source a similar replacement (even though it wasn't the official part). In fact any metal pipe could have been fabricated into the right shape. That same garage won't work on HV systems.

won't or currently don't?

Ok, fair point. We need to get to a state where more of the independent garages are able to fix these things. Similar concepts have happened before. I.e. when engine management went all electronic, it took a while for the average garage to catch up and be able to work on them. Same for DSG gearboxes. But the leap to EVs is on a new level. It wil take a big change for the local grease-monkeys to catch up. I think there will be much more acceptance of EVs when your average local garage can fix them. This will address much of the anti-EV stuff currently around.
Just to be clear, I'm not anti-EV. We do have one in the family fleet. But I'm also clear that the true cost of ownership is not being fairly represented in many quarters.

[Maracus]

PSRG said:

G-wiz said:

What Car exposing 'unrepresentative' electric car ranges:

https://www.whatcar.com/news/inaccuracy-of-officia...

Published ranges are generally way off what’s actually achievable in the real world, but they have to follow the standards set out in the regs - they don’t just make the rules up themselves. It’s the same for ICE cars…how many really achieve the published fuel economy figures? None of my cars have ever achieved the published figures long-term. Sure, some journeys I beat it. But my E250 cdi has an ‘official’ consumption of 56mpg. It’s achieved 42 mpg over 30,000 miles.

My previous XC60 D4 had a combined of 62mpg iirc.

The best I ever saw when trying really hard was a 40 mile mega-miling motorway stint, 54mpg. Generally it was 40mpg.

[Knock_knock]

M4cruiser said:

Ok, fair point. We need to get to a state where more of the independent garages are able to fix these things. Similar concepts have happened before. I.e. when engine management went all electronic, it took a while for the average garage to catch up and be able to work on them. Same for DSG gearboxes. But the leap to EVs is on a new level. It wil take a big change for the local grease-monkeys to catch up. I think there will be much more acceptance of EVs when your average local garage can fix them. This will address much of the anti-EV stuff currently around.
Just to be clear, I'm not anti-EV. We do have one in the family fleet. But I'm also clear that the true cost of ownership is not being fairly represented in many quarters.

Funnily enough I popped into my local garage yesterday to book my EV in for a service. He's a one-man band but just taken on an apprentice.

We were chatting about servicing and "fixing" EV's as he's a member of HEVRA. His view is that he would much rather work on EV's than ICE. He has got into the EV side quite early so is collecting a lot of business locally - he reckons they're more than half his work already.

He's about to send his apprentice on the EV specific training, which by the sound of it is mostly based around "don't f**k with the orange bits and you won't die" His main thoughts were that normal servicing and repairs are absolutely no different to any other vehicle type and that work around the high voltage system just requires following appropriate isolation steps and is then as straightforward as any other job.

At this time he isn't looking at anything to do with batteries or motors as they aren't a point of failure, whereas the charging electronics are, and these are entirely fixable at a small garage.

[ZesPak]

I've got a friend who's a second generation car mechanic. He's in his early thirties and he's taken classes as early as five years ago regarding EV's.
Same story as yours, not really seeing the "refurbish batteries" as a viable business (yet).

I do wonder. Looking at the scrapyard, most engines are discarded with the cars. I can see a future where this won't be the same for motors and batteries. Batteries are recyclable and contain a lot of valuable materials, plus they can get a second life as things like home batteries even if their energy density falls below usable levels for transport.

At least being able to salvage these things out of an -otherwise- total loss EV seems something a shop should be able to do. Even if not all of them can have battery workstations.

[Mahalo]

Knock_knock said:

At this time he isn't looking at anything to do with batteries or motors as they aren't a point of failure, whereas the charging electronics are, and these are entirely fixable at a small garage.

Yep - in essence EV's and in particular BEV rather than PHEV are much simpler and less complicated than ICE vehicles. The batteries and motors tend to be ultra reliable and if you isolate the high voltage parts before working on the vehicle then EVs are easier to work on and have less to go wrong.

[P.Griffin]

My apologies if this has already been posted, but I stumbled across this on my internet travels today. I have tried to argue some of the points made here, mainly that I don't believe that 100% EV is the future. The EV extremists (you know who you are) usually dismiss these opinions as nothing more than anti EV propaganda. Clearly I don't have the same audience, carry his gravitas or present my opinions in such a measured way as Harry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZysvgm2_Aw

[TheDeuce]

P.Griffin said:

My apologies if this has already been posted, but I stumbled across this on my internet travels today. I have tried to argue some of the points made here, mainly that I don't believe that 100% EV is the future. The EV extremists (you know who you are) usually dismiss these opinions as nothing more than anti EV propaganda. Clearly I don't have the same audience, carry his gravitas or present my opinions in such a measured way as Harry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZysvgm2_Aw

That video has been discussed and dismantled several times already, on a few threads - Harry doesn't compare like for like and is known to be (perhaps unconsciously) biased against EV's.

He's a lovely chap and great car fan, obviously. But point of fact, he doesn't even understand how regen works! He also seems not to understand that comparing the rrp of electric and diesel cars is pointless.

[P.Griffin]

TheDeuce said:

P.Griffin said:

My apologies if this has already been posted, but I stumbled across this on my internet travels today. I have tried to argue some of the points made here, mainly that I don't believe that 100% EV is the future. The EV extremists (you know who you are) usually dismiss these opinions as nothing more than anti EV propaganda. Clearly I don't have the same audience, carry his gravitas or present my opinions in such a measured way as Harry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZysvgm2_Aw

That video has been discussed and dismantled several times already, on a few threads - Harry doesn't compare like for like and is known to be (perhaps unconsciously) biased against EV's.

He's a lovely chap and great car fan, obviously. But point of fact, he doesn't even understand how regen works! He also seems not to understand that comparing the rrp of electric and diesel cars is pointless.

Cheers Deuce ..I knew you'd be first up on this. Is the PH EV forum your full time job?

[TheDeuce]

P.Griffin said:

TheDeuce said:

P.Griffin said:

My apologies if this has already been posted, but I stumbled across this on my internet travels today. I have tried to argue some of the points made here, mainly that I don't believe that 100% EV is the future. The EV extremists (you know who you are) usually dismiss these opinions as nothing more than anti EV propaganda. Clearly I don't have the same audience, carry his gravitas or present my opinions in such a measured way as Harry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZysvgm2_Aw

That video has been discussed and dismantled several times already, on a few threads - Harry doesn't compare like for like and is known to be (perhaps unconsciously) biased against EV's.

He's a lovely chap and great car fan, obviously. But point of fact, he doesn't even understand how regen works! He also seems not to understand that comparing the rrp of electric and diesel cars is pointless.

Cheers Deuce ..I knew you'd be first up on this. Is the PH EV forum your full time job?

Ahh sarcasm

Presenting an argument using someone else's words via a YT video, backed up by sarcasm when some sensible points are made about the validity of the opinion in that video.

If you must know, I only work a couple of days a week and spend my free time enjoying various hobbies and passions, one of which is discussing cars - especially the future of personal transport, which I find fascinating. I think that should be acceptable on a car fan forum.

[eldar]

P.Griffin said:

My apologies if this has already been posted, but I stumbled across this on my internet travels today. I have tried to argue some of the points made here, mainly that I don't believe that 100% EV is the future. The EV extremists (you know who you are) usually dismiss these opinions as nothing more than anti EV propaganda. Clearly I don't have the same audience, carry his gravitas or present my opinions in such a measured way as Harry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZysvgm2_Aw

Few believe 100% EV is the future. Fine for cars and locomotives, impractical mainly for trucks.

We'll gradually move to EV cars, the luddites will become increasingly sidelined and everyone else gets on with driving, and often enjoying their benefits.

Do lament the demise of 5 star petrol, and leaded in general? The doommo gets were out in force over that.

[stumpage]

I have had my EV for a week and have to go to visit a relative in hospital. I means a round trip of 414 miles in a day which I will share driving with my wife the car has a range of 250 on a good day according to reviews (i4 M50 on 20" wheels).

So last night I thought to myself I want to take the new car on a nice long drive (Hertfordshire to Devon and back) so started to plan my journey trying to look where I would need to stop to charge etc. Then saw the prices for charging at rapid chargers, not cheap!!! Now I'm thinking, forget it I'm just taking our Diesel Kodiaq. No fuss and planing needed. How soon after having these EVs does your mindset change?

Anyway the point I wish I'd have be told about the high cost of charging when out and about and how much you have to plan. Or am I doing this all wrong?

[Nomme de Plum]

P.Griffin said:

My apologies if this has already been posted, but I stumbled across this on my internet travels today. I have tried to argue some of the points made here, mainly that I don't believe that 100% EV is the future. The EV extremists (you know who you are) usually dismiss these opinions as nothing more than anti EV propaganda. Clearly I don't have the same audience, carry his gravitas or present my opinions in such a measured way as Harry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZysvgm2_Aw

When you watch a video like this do you never bother to question the contents and analyse what you are being shown. For instance when the two cost pages are flashed up did you not wonder why they were on screen for such little time or not even side by side. That's how proper analysis is done.

Then equalisation is carried out to ensure true like for like comparison.

Your very words show an inbuilt prejudice. Not a good place to start.

You should try to remember those of us that now drive EVs as our normal daily form of personal transport will have had ICEs previously. In my case in excess of 20 over 50 years including 2 Lotuses 3 TVRs a couple of Gtis and normal family cars.

[Seasonal Hero]

stumpage said:

I have had my EV for a week and have to go to visit a relative in hospital. I means a round trip of 414 miles in a day which I will share driving with my wife the car has a range of 250 on a good day according to reviews (i4 M50 on 20" wheels).

So last night I thought to myself I want to take the new car on a nice long drive (Hertfordshire to Devon and back) so started to plan my journey trying to look where I would need to stop to charge etc. Then saw the prices for charging at rapid chargers, not cheap!!! Now I'm thinking, forget it I'm just taking our Diesel Kodiaq. No fuss and planing needed. How soon after having these EVs does your mindset change?

Anyway the point I wish I'd have be told about the high cost of charging when out and about and how much you have to plan. Or am I doing this all wrong?

You didn’t look into it before you got the car?

[romft123]

stumpage said:

I have had my EV for a week and have to go to visit a relative in hospital. I means a round trip of 414 miles in a day which I will share driving with my wife the car has a range of 250 on a good day according to reviews (i4 M50 on 20" wheels).

So last night I thought to myself I want to take the new car on a nice long drive (Hertfordshire to Devon and back) so started to plan my journey trying to look where I would need to stop to charge etc. Then saw the prices for charging at rapid chargers, not cheap!!! Now I'm thinking, forget it I'm just taking our Diesel Kodiaq. No fuss and planing needed. How soon after having these EVs does your mindset change?

Anyway the point I wish I'd have be told about the high cost of charging when out and about and how much you have to plan. Or am I doing this all wrong?

What was the cost of charging it up at home, then a top up to get you back home VS the cost of diesel for the whole trip???

[romft123]

Nomme de Plum said:

P.Griffin said:

My apologies if this has already been posted, but I stumbled across this on my internet travels today. I have tried to argue some of the points made here, mainly that I don't believe that 100% EV is the future. The EV extremists (you know who you are) usually dismiss these opinions as nothing more than anti EV propaganda. Clearly I don't have the same audience, carry his gravitas or present my opinions in such a measured way as Harry.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZysvgm2_Aw

Moaning about the cost of a new Range Rover.....!

[TheDeuce]

stumpage said:

I have had my EV for a week and have to go to visit a relative in hospital. I means a round trip of 414 miles in a day which I will share driving with my wife the car has a range of 250 on a good day according to reviews (i4 M50 on 20" wheels).

So last night I thought to myself I want to take the new car on a nice long drive (Hertfordshire to Devon and back) so started to plan my journey trying to look where I would need to stop to charge etc. Then saw the prices for charging at rapid chargers, not cheap!!! Now I'm thinking, forget it I'm just taking our Diesel Kodiaq. No fuss and planing needed. How soon after having these EVs does your mindset change?

Anyway the point I wish I'd have be told about the high cost of charging when out and about and how much you have to plan. Or am I doing this all wrong?

So say a range of ~225 miles this time of year (I have the same car, same wheels), to make the hospital trip you only need to add about 190 miles of range - I typically pay around 70p on the occasions I use rapid chargers at service stations, assuming miles per kwh of 3.5, that's about £38. The diesel would cost more on the same length journey and obviously be nowhere near as nice to drive or sit in as your M50...

You don't really need to plan where to stop these days, it's impossible to exceed the range of your car in the UK without driving past or very near to rapid chargers. I guess there is an argument that you don't need to stop at all in the diesel but... given the number of hours driving I would think you'd want a snack and toilet break anyway.

To answer your closing question, when I got my first EV the charger network wasn't half as good as it is now, but even then, after a couple of long journeys I stopped stressing about it. These days it's so easy that it takes next to no thought at all - but I fully understand that if you're new to EV it's going to feel alien for a while regardless.

Nice car by the way

[stumpage]

TheDeuce said:

So say a range of ~225 miles this time of year (I have the same car, same wheels), to make the hospital trip you only need to add about 190 miles of range - I typically pay around 70p on the occasions I use rapid chargers at service stations, assuming miles per kwh of 3.5, that's about £38. The diesel would cost more on the same length journey and obviously be nowhere near as nice to drive or sit in as your M50...

You don't really need to plan where to stop these days, it's impossible to exceed the range of your car in the UK without driving past or very near to rapid chargers. I guess there is an argument that you don't need to stop at all in the diesel but... given the number of hours driving I would think you'd want a snack and toilet break anyway.

To answer your closing question, when I got my first EV the charger network wasn't half as good as it is now, but even then, after a couple of long journeys I stopped stressing about it. These days it's so easy that it takes next to no thought at all - but I fully understand that if you're new to EV it's going to feel alien for a while regardless.

Nice car by the way

That’s what I wanted to here. I reckon a full charge leaving the house. Top up at the new charging place on the M5 near Exeter on to Torquay and the same stop on the way back.