EVs and In Gear Acceleration vs ICE
Discussion
TheDeuce said:
I assume you mean you couldn't think of anything 'more boring'..?
Fast EV's are generally one trick ponies, that is true. But most vanilla ICE cars are also dull, but without even that one trick.
Assuming we're comparing performance ICE with performance EV cars, as this thread was, then there is far more to the electric powertrain than a lazy point and click straight-line burst of acceleration. A well engineered, performance EV has traction and weight placement that can generate significant cornering forces and then as you open up the steering, catapult you down the road on a wave of torque that is simply relentless. Whatever our individual preference for a drivetrain is, as a combination of dynamic ability and the feeling of power, that simply isn't boring. Nor is the fact that it costs pennies not pounds in terms of fuel each time you 'have a go', so, you get a lot more goes!
Personally I have resolved to the fact I love both, for different reasons. The two drivetrains are too different to compare directly or to try and make a sustainable argument as to which is best.
Yes, typo there! Fast EV's are generally one trick ponies, that is true. But most vanilla ICE cars are also dull, but without even that one trick.
Assuming we're comparing performance ICE with performance EV cars, as this thread was, then there is far more to the electric powertrain than a lazy point and click straight-line burst of acceleration. A well engineered, performance EV has traction and weight placement that can generate significant cornering forces and then as you open up the steering, catapult you down the road on a wave of torque that is simply relentless. Whatever our individual preference for a drivetrain is, as a combination of dynamic ability and the feeling of power, that simply isn't boring. Nor is the fact that it costs pennies not pounds in terms of fuel each time you 'have a go', so, you get a lot more goes!
Personally I have resolved to the fact I love both, for different reasons. The two drivetrains are too different to compare directly or to try and make a sustainable argument as to which is best.
Each to their own, as a white good I understand, for fun I just don't get it.
Most modern fast, heavy, dual clutch things bore me too as you say. That said, at least they have the noise and at lease a bit of engagement going up and down the box.
M.F.D said:
TheDeuce said:
I assume you mean you couldn't think of anything 'more boring'..?
Fast EV's are generally one trick ponies, that is true. But most vanilla ICE cars are also dull, but without even that one trick.
Assuming we're comparing performance ICE with performance EV cars, as this thread was, then there is far more to the electric powertrain than a lazy point and click straight-line burst of acceleration. A well engineered, performance EV has traction and weight placement that can generate significant cornering forces and then as you open up the steering, catapult you down the road on a wave of torque that is simply relentless. Whatever our individual preference for a drivetrain is, as a combination of dynamic ability and the feeling of power, that simply isn't boring. Nor is the fact that it costs pennies not pounds in terms of fuel each time you 'have a go', so, you get a lot more goes!
Personally I have resolved to the fact I love both, for different reasons. The two drivetrains are too different to compare directly or to try and make a sustainable argument as to which is best.
Yes, typo there! Fast EV's are generally one trick ponies, that is true. But most vanilla ICE cars are also dull, but without even that one trick.
Assuming we're comparing performance ICE with performance EV cars, as this thread was, then there is far more to the electric powertrain than a lazy point and click straight-line burst of acceleration. A well engineered, performance EV has traction and weight placement that can generate significant cornering forces and then as you open up the steering, catapult you down the road on a wave of torque that is simply relentless. Whatever our individual preference for a drivetrain is, as a combination of dynamic ability and the feeling of power, that simply isn't boring. Nor is the fact that it costs pennies not pounds in terms of fuel each time you 'have a go', so, you get a lot more goes!
Personally I have resolved to the fact I love both, for different reasons. The two drivetrains are too different to compare directly or to try and make a sustainable argument as to which is best.
Each to their own, as a white good I understand, for fun I just don't get it.
Most modern fast, heavy, dual clutch things bore me too as you say. That said, at least they have the noise and at lease a bit of engagement going up and down the box.
If you like the mechanical nature and handling of a smaller, lighter ICE car then that's that.
If you want the machine that's the best at going fast in the real world of twisty roads, you probably want the performance orientated EV, but looking at the enduring popularity of the MX5, clearly a lot of people put fun and involvement above what is arguably the best machine for the job.
I'm conflicted as I'm a long term car fan and petrol head - in general I prefer the traditional approach to most things, cooking, wine, manners...
But alas, I'm an engineer - so show me a superior powertrain solution for a car, and chiefly what I see and celebrate is how and why it's superior - as a machine. It's not a lack of passion, I'm simply passionate about a well designed and effective machine, I enjoy experiencing the capabilities of such a machine. Even though a big part of me is very happy with a straight six manual on a winding coast road, there is always a nagging voice that questions the logic, despite the passion.
I'm conflicted
TheDeuce said:
M.F.D said:
TheDeuce said:
I assume you mean you couldn't think of anything 'more boring'..?
Fast EV's are generally one trick ponies, that is true. But most vanilla ICE cars are also dull, but without even that one trick.
Assuming we're comparing performance ICE with performance EV cars, as this thread was, then there is far more to the electric powertrain than a lazy point and click straight-line burst of acceleration. A well engineered, performance EV has traction and weight placement that can generate significant cornering forces and then as you open up the steering, catapult you down the road on a wave of torque that is simply relentless. Whatever our individual preference for a drivetrain is, as a combination of dynamic ability and the feeling of power, that simply isn't boring. Nor is the fact that it costs pennies not pounds in terms of fuel each time you 'have a go', so, you get a lot more goes!
Personally I have resolved to the fact I love both, for different reasons. The two drivetrains are too different to compare directly or to try and make a sustainable argument as to which is best.
Yes, typo there! Fast EV's are generally one trick ponies, that is true. But most vanilla ICE cars are also dull, but without even that one trick.
Assuming we're comparing performance ICE with performance EV cars, as this thread was, then there is far more to the electric powertrain than a lazy point and click straight-line burst of acceleration. A well engineered, performance EV has traction and weight placement that can generate significant cornering forces and then as you open up the steering, catapult you down the road on a wave of torque that is simply relentless. Whatever our individual preference for a drivetrain is, as a combination of dynamic ability and the feeling of power, that simply isn't boring. Nor is the fact that it costs pennies not pounds in terms of fuel each time you 'have a go', so, you get a lot more goes!
Personally I have resolved to the fact I love both, for different reasons. The two drivetrains are too different to compare directly or to try and make a sustainable argument as to which is best.
Each to their own, as a white good I understand, for fun I just don't get it.
Most modern fast, heavy, dual clutch things bore me too as you say. That said, at least they have the noise and at lease a bit of engagement going up and down the box.
If you like the mechanical nature and handling of a smaller, lighter ICE car then that's that.
If you want the machine that's the best at going fast in the real world of twisty roads, you probably want the performance orientated EV, but looking at the enduring popularity of the MX5, clearly a lot of people put fun and involvement above what is arguably the best machine for the job.
I'm conflicted as I'm a long term car fan and petrol head - in general I prefer the traditional approach to most things, cooking, wine, manners...
But alas, I'm an engineer - so show me a superior powertrain solution for a car, and chiefly what I see and celebrate is how and why it's superior - as a machine. It's not a lack of passion, I'm simply passionate about a well designed and effective machine, I enjoy experiencing the capabilities of such a machine. Even though a big part of me is very happy with a straight six manual on a winding coast road, there is always a nagging voice that questions the logic, despite the passion.
I'm conflicted
There have been many times where I could have bought the 'better car for the job'. Example of this is when I bought my JDM Impreza STI, I could have just bought a Golf R, A45 or whatever but the engagement of the Subaru delivered so much more enjoyment than they ever could. 8K +revs, short ratio box, quick rack steering etc etc.
As you say, there is a passion of stirring a nice engine with a manual box that is missed in these newage performance vehicles, whether it be ICE or EV.
M.F.D said:
TheDeuce said:
M.F.D said:
TheDeuce said:
I assume you mean you couldn't think of anything 'more boring'..?
Fast EV's are generally one trick ponies, that is true. But most vanilla ICE cars are also dull, but without even that one trick.
Assuming we're comparing performance ICE with performance EV cars, as this thread was, then there is far more to the electric powertrain than a lazy point and click straight-line burst of acceleration. A well engineered, performance EV has traction and weight placement that can generate significant cornering forces and then as you open up the steering, catapult you down the road on a wave of torque that is simply relentless. Whatever our individual preference for a drivetrain is, as a combination of dynamic ability and the feeling of power, that simply isn't boring. Nor is the fact that it costs pennies not pounds in terms of fuel each time you 'have a go', so, you get a lot more goes!
Personally I have resolved to the fact I love both, for different reasons. The two drivetrains are too different to compare directly or to try and make a sustainable argument as to which is best.
Yes, typo there! Fast EV's are generally one trick ponies, that is true. But most vanilla ICE cars are also dull, but without even that one trick.
Assuming we're comparing performance ICE with performance EV cars, as this thread was, then there is far more to the electric powertrain than a lazy point and click straight-line burst of acceleration. A well engineered, performance EV has traction and weight placement that can generate significant cornering forces and then as you open up the steering, catapult you down the road on a wave of torque that is simply relentless. Whatever our individual preference for a drivetrain is, as a combination of dynamic ability and the feeling of power, that simply isn't boring. Nor is the fact that it costs pennies not pounds in terms of fuel each time you 'have a go', so, you get a lot more goes!
Personally I have resolved to the fact I love both, for different reasons. The two drivetrains are too different to compare directly or to try and make a sustainable argument as to which is best.
Each to their own, as a white good I understand, for fun I just don't get it.
Most modern fast, heavy, dual clutch things bore me too as you say. That said, at least they have the noise and at lease a bit of engagement going up and down the box.
If you like the mechanical nature and handling of a smaller, lighter ICE car then that's that.
If you want the machine that's the best at going fast in the real world of twisty roads, you probably want the performance orientated EV, but looking at the enduring popularity of the MX5, clearly a lot of people put fun and involvement above what is arguably the best machine for the job.
I'm conflicted as I'm a long term car fan and petrol head - in general I prefer the traditional approach to most things, cooking, wine, manners...
But alas, I'm an engineer - so show me a superior powertrain solution for a car, and chiefly what I see and celebrate is how and why it's superior - as a machine. It's not a lack of passion, I'm simply passionate about a well designed and effective machine, I enjoy experiencing the capabilities of such a machine. Even though a big part of me is very happy with a straight six manual on a winding coast road, there is always a nagging voice that questions the logic, despite the passion.
I'm conflicted
There have been many times where I could have bought the 'better car for the job'. Example of this is when I bought my JDM Impreza STI, I could have just bought a Golf R, A45 or whatever but the engagement of the Subaru delivered so much more enjoyment than they ever could. 8K +revs, short ratio box, quick rack steering etc etc.
As you say, there is a passion of stirring a nice engine with a manual box that is missed in these newage performance vehicles, whether it be ICE or EV.
Zcd1 said:
740EVTORQUES said:
You have to remember that it’s not actually necessary to own or have driven an EV to have an absolutely unshakable opinion that they are rubbish and are actually worse for the environment than petrol or diesel cars.
Sadly, so true....Folk who have high performance EVs always sing their praises and rate them very highly from what I read on here to be fair. Plus a lot of folk seem to prefer them to ICE as well.
Zcd1 said:
Anyone who thinks of a car like the Model 3 Performance as "one trick pony" must not have actually driven one in anger on a twisty road.
I have, and they feel very sporty - until pushed dynamically. They need stiffer springs and damping or adaptive damping to 'attack' a corner, in addition to obviously being extremely fast.It depends what you're used to as to how highly you rate any car, of course.
TheDeuce said:
They need stiffer springs and damping or adaptive damping to 'attack' a corner...
That's such a broad proclamation that there's no possibility of it being accurate, though...TheDeuce said:
...It depends what you're used to as to how highly you rate any car, of course.
Coming from a long line of high-performance sedans, my Model 3P is more fun and more capable overall than any of them. (IMHO)Edited by Zcd1 on Friday 22 March 15:53
Edited by Zcd1 on Friday 22 March 15:54
Zcd1 said:
TheDeuce said:
They need stiffer springs and damping or adaptive damping to 'attack' a corner...
That's such a broad proclamation that there's no possibility of it being accurate, though...TheDeuce said:
...It depends what you're used to as to how highly you rate any car, of course.
Coming from a long line of high-performance sedans, my Model 3P is more fun and more capable overall than any of them. (IMHO)Edited by Zcd1 on Friday 22 March 15:53
Edited by Zcd1 on Friday 22 March 15:54
I agree the TM3 is a lot of fun and it's pace will ensure it's overall quicker down most roads that many more performance orientated cars. But there are dynamically superior EV's around that are just as quick but also handle better.
Monkey said he was ok with the Model 3 Performance non?
'Not far off'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8R7kZGvAUk&ab...
You driving gods must get a TV prog and show us what you mean of the EV's being s
t.
'Not far off'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8R7kZGvAUk&ab...
You driving gods must get a TV prog and show us what you mean of the EV's being s
t.PushedDover said:
Monkey said he was ok with the Model 3 Performance non?
'Not far off'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8R7kZGvAUk&ab...
You driving gods must get a TV prog and show us what you mean of the EV's being st.
Is that you Elon?! 'Not far off'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8R7kZGvAUk&ab...
You driving gods must get a TV prog and show us what you mean of the EV's being s
t.
PushedDover said:
Monkey said he was ok with the Model 3 Performance non?
'Not far off'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8R7kZGvAUk&ab...
You driving gods must get a TV prog and show us what you mean of the EV's being st.
Wait, who said EV's were s'Not far off'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8R7kZGvAUk&ab...
You driving gods must get a TV prog and show us what you mean of the EV's being s
t.t?That video shows my point perfectly. The TM3 is easily real sorld fast enough on straighter sections of the road to be as fast/faster overall than pretty much anything else. But as a drivers car, in the twistier bits it's too soft and lacks composure.
It's a very fast 'normal' car, not a very fast performance/sports car. That's not a criticism, it's simply recognition of what the car is, how it was designed.
PushedDover said:
Monkey said he was ok with the Model 3 Performance non?
'Not far off'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8R7kZGvAUk&ab...
You driving gods must get a TV prog and show us what you mean of the EV's being st.
How embarrassing for the ICE pundits. Tesla do not even have the experience of building fast circuit ready cars. 'Not far off'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8R7kZGvAUk&ab...
You driving gods must get a TV prog and show us what you mean of the EV's being s
t.Nomme de Plum said:
PushedDover said:
Monkey said he was ok with the Model 3 Performance non?
'Not far off'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8R7kZGvAUk&ab...
You driving gods must get a TV prog and show us what you mean of the EV's being st.
How embarrassing for the ICE pundits. Tesla do not even have the experience of building fast circuit ready cars. 'Not far off'
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h8R7kZGvAUk&ab...
You driving gods must get a TV prog and show us what you mean of the EV's being s
t.The only obvious measure of performance that mainstream EV's might not surpass ICE on is too speed, which is fairly pointless.. but even there, as EV motor design improves so does the max rpm, eventually a single speed fixed transmission EV could easily top 200mph.
TheDeuce said:
I think the M3 and Guila QV would beat the TM3 lap time on most circuits still, but given that the TM3 doesn't have trick suspension and decades of sports car design in its DNA, the fact that a first gen 'sporty' EV can even get close is impressive. It shows how quickly EV's are likely to exceed ICE across all performance metrics - not just acceleration.
The only obvious measure of performance that mainstream EV's might not surpass ICE on is too speed, which is fairly pointless.. but even there, as EV motor design improves so does the max rpm, eventually a single speed fixed transmission EV could easily top 200mph.
I have to say that from that angle the TM3 is very impressive. It has in some ways made performance ICE cars redundant at its first go. So you just can't help but be impressed with them in that regard I think. The only obvious measure of performance that mainstream EV's might not surpass ICE on is too speed, which is fairly pointless.. but even there, as EV motor design improves so does the max rpm, eventually a single speed fixed transmission EV could easily top 200mph.
TheDeuce said:
I think the M3 and Guila QV would beat the TM3 lap time on most circuits still, but given that the TM3 doesn't have trick suspension and decades of sports car design in its DNA, the fact that a first gen 'sporty' EV can even get close is impressive. It shows how quickly EV's are likely to exceed ICE across all performance metrics - not just acceleration.
The only obvious measure of performance that mainstream EV's might not surpass ICE on is too speed, which is fairly pointless.. but even there, as EV motor design improves so does the max rpm, eventually a single speed fixed transmission EV could easily top 200mph.
How long could the TM3 Perf run flat out around Silverstone none stop?The only obvious measure of performance that mainstream EV's might not surpass ICE on is too speed, which is fairly pointless.. but even there, as EV motor design improves so does the max rpm, eventually a single speed fixed transmission EV could easily top 200mph.
540TORQUES said:
TheDeuce said:
I think the M3 and Guila QV would beat the TM3 lap time on most circuits still, but given that the TM3 doesn't have trick suspension and decades of sports car design in its DNA, the fact that a first gen 'sporty' EV can even get close is impressive. It shows how quickly EV's are likely to exceed ICE across all performance metrics - not just acceleration.
The only obvious measure of performance that mainstream EV's might not surpass ICE on is too speed, which is fairly pointless.. but even there, as EV motor design improves so does the max rpm, eventually a single speed fixed transmission EV could easily top 200mph.
How long could the TM3 Perf run flat out around Silverstone none stop?The only obvious measure of performance that mainstream EV's might not surpass ICE on is too speed, which is fairly pointless.. but even there, as EV motor design improves so does the max rpm, eventually a single speed fixed transmission EV could easily top 200mph.
If you want an EV that could potentially beat even an F1 car around a fast lap of Silverstone, you'll have to wait for the upcoming retail version of the McMurtry... Which apparently will be able to do several such laps at that pace - I imagine more laps than most of it's owners will be able to deal with!
TheDeuce said:
540TORQUES said:
TheDeuce said:
I think the M3 and Guila QV would beat the TM3 lap time on most circuits still, but given that the TM3 doesn't have trick suspension and decades of sports car design in its DNA, the fact that a first gen 'sporty' EV can even get close is impressive. It shows how quickly EV's are likely to exceed ICE across all performance metrics - not just acceleration.
The only obvious measure of performance that mainstream EV's might not surpass ICE on is too speed, which is fairly pointless.. but even there, as EV motor design improves so does the max rpm, eventually a single speed fixed transmission EV could easily top 200mph.
How long could the TM3 Perf run flat out around Silverstone none stop?The only obvious measure of performance that mainstream EV's might not surpass ICE on is too speed, which is fairly pointless.. but even there, as EV motor design improves so does the max rpm, eventually a single speed fixed transmission EV could easily top 200mph.
If you want an EV that could potentially beat even an F1 car around a fast lap of Silverstone, you'll have to wait for the upcoming retail version of the McMurtry... Which apparently will be able to do several such laps at that pace - I imagine more laps than most of it's owners will be able to deal with!
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