EVs and In Gear Acceleration vs ICE

[740EVTORQUES]

Largely cost I would think, which is still an issue of course. However we’re rapidly approaching a tipping point on that aspect, even without endorsing the Chinese brands if you have political qualms about buying those.

Also of course fear of the unknown, reinforced by a good dose of BS and misinformation in the media.

Look, I get it, I thought long and hard before ordering an EV, even though I’m in the privileged position of being able to keep my ICE car and with the expectation that I could have flipped the EV for £5k profit if I really didn’t like it (this was during the used car price bubble and they traded £10k over for 9 months). Of course I have a drive to charge on as well. I nearly cancelled my order several times during the 18 month wait, concerned about the stories of charging woes, unreliability, or just anxious that I would miss the (admittedly glorious) sound of a flat 6 in the morning.

I was also fully expecting to resort to the 911 for long trips as well as the EV sounded like a gamble.

Spoiler: missing the sound turned out to be a fiction, you appreciate different things in an EV, not better, not worse, different.

And those long trips? I chanced the first one in the EV and all the potential problems turned out to be non issues.

Hardly use the 911 now.

Getting the EV was one of the best motoring decisions I have ever made.

But for those who can’t or won’t make the jump yet, they don’t have to for at least 10 years buying new and much longer used.

[delta0]

wormus said:

I disagree and so do many other people, otherwise we wouldn’t need government incentives, and they would be flying off the shelves. The fact is they’re not.

How would you explain this?
https://insideevs.com/news/712520/hyundai-motor-gl...

46% down on sales yoy.

Edited by wormus on Saturday 23 March 09:41

The forecast is 25% of new car sales will be EV this year and the Feb 24 vs Feb 23 shows a jump in EV numbers. People got over sensitive to electric prices last year when those is us running electric knew it was a lot cheaper to run still. Those issues have gone away and the education around this has reached most but clearly still some don’t understand it yet.

[CrgT16]

EVs are not here to replace ICEs completely in the short term. Current charging infrastructure/capacity is not enough if you can’t charge from home. Also they are still an expensive way of transport. Finally the tech is evolving rapidly so there is some reluctance to buy a new car using your own money.

We probably see the next 20 years of a mix of EV and hybrid powertrains.

Until electricity generation becomes cheap and plentiful and battery storage much more efficient we are a bit stuck. Not sure how easy it would be to change both. We need a breakthrough.

Doubt it will happen in my lifetime, may not happen at all!!

[eldar]

Forgetting the 1000BHP super cars, bikes and track day cars, what about the vast majority?

Take the average 150BHP family car. Then take the equivalent EV version. For me, the instant and linear throttle response to the speed limit is a game changer. Other aspects like braking and handling pretty much the same in both.

Add on drive charging, full tank less than £3.00, and the average user is convinced.

This is progress, and improvements are continuous. Price equality is approaching rapidly.

[TheDeuce]

eldar said:

Forgetting the 1000BHP super cars, bikes and track day cars, what about the vast majority?

Take the average 150BHP family car. Then take the equivalent EV version. For me, the instant and linear throttle response to the speed limit is a game changer. Other aspects like braking and handling pretty much the same in both.

Add on drive charging, full tank less than £3.00, and the average user is convinced.

This is progress, and improvements are continuous. Price equality is approaching rapidly.

I think price parity is already achieved - once running costs are factored in.

I didn't agree that for the average driver who just wants 'a car' EV is already a great solution. The much talked about range and charging aspects actually won't even be factor for most drivers usage.

But there is a lot of misinformation around, which combined with suspicion of anything new will make it a long and slow process to get the masses to adopt. However, it's underway and happening at least as fast as it needs to.

[df76]

TheDeuce said:

eldar said:

Forgetting the 1000BHP super cars, bikes and track day cars, what about the vast majority?

Take the average 150BHP family car. Then take the equivalent EV version. For me, the instant and linear throttle response to the speed limit is a game changer. Other aspects like braking and handling pretty much the same in both.

Add on drive charging, full tank less than £3.00, and the average user is convinced.

This is progress, and improvements are continuous. Price equality is approaching rapidly.

I think price parity is already achieved - once running costs are factored in.

I didn't agree that for the average driver who just wants 'a car' EV is already a great solution. The much talked about range and charging aspects actually won't even be factor for most drivers usage.

But there is a lot of misinformation around, which combined with suspicion of anything new will make it a long and slow process to get the masses to adopt. However, it's underway and happening at least as fast as it needs to.

People just don’t like change, and in many cases they’re scared of it. In terms of affordability, recently getting an EV is the first time that I could afford the monthly payments on a new car. Overall it’s significantly cheaper than anything ICE that could compare. And back on topic, in real road use, it has performance that is more accessible than anything else I’ve driven, and it’s not really what I’d call a performance car.

[fatjon]

My family sized comfortable EV, 0-60 in 3.4 and 0-100 in 7.5 and £10 to fill it for 250 miles
My Cerbera 0-60 in 3.8 0-100 in 8.1 and £110 to fill it for 250 miles.

So yes, EV acceleration is silly at all speeds that will get you a ticket or a ban not a jail sentence. Yes the TVR will go on to 195+ and the EV “only” 165 but really, who cares on public roads. At all speeds that matter unless you’re barking mad a mid to upper end EV is going to waste pretty much any ICE other than exotics.

[anonymous-user]

fatjon said:

but really, who cares

Pretty much.

[TheDeuce]

fatjon said:

My family sized comfortable EV, 0-60 in 3.4 and 0-100 in 7.5 and £10 to fill it for 250 miles
My Cerbera 0-60 in 3.8 0-100 in 8.1 and £110 to fill it for 250 miles.

So yes, EV acceleration is silly at all speeds that will get you a ticket or a ban not a jail sentence. Yes the TVR will go on to 195+ and the EV “only” 165 but really, who cares on public roads. At all speeds that matter unless you’re barking mad a mid to upper end EV is going to waste pretty much any ICE other than exotics.

Exactly. And I personally prefer 'more goes' when it comes to actually enjoying my car, so EV is the obvious answer. I wake up each morning to a 550hp car with a full tank for about £8... Ten years ago that would have been an impossible dream.

Every moment of every journey feels like I'm making progress more sharply than 95% of the other cars on the road. I don't need to break the law or be a hooligan, it's just easy, fast, safe and very satisfying real world motoring.

I miss the engine note, I really do. But not so much that I want to return to a slower car that costs me 10x as much to run if I wish to enjoy it.

[Scott-R]

wormus said:

Why can’t they let EVs stand on their own merits and let the market decide?

The use of ICE vehicles are also subsidised heavily by the government. Are you arguing to remove all subsidies from transport or just EVs?

[cerb4.5lee]

TheDeuce said:

fatjon said:

My family sized comfortable EV, 0-60 in 3.4 and 0-100 in 7.5 and £10 to fill it for 250 miles
My Cerbera 0-60 in 3.8 0-100 in 8.1 and £110 to fill it for 250 miles.

So yes, EV acceleration is silly at all speeds that will get you a ticket or a ban not a jail sentence. Yes the TVR will go on to 195+ and the EV “only” 165 but really, who cares on public roads. At all speeds that matter unless you’re barking mad a mid to upper end EV is going to waste pretty much any ICE other than exotics.

Exactly. And I personally prefer 'more goes' when it comes to actually enjoying my car, so EV is the obvious answer. I wake up each morning to a 550hp car with a full tank for about £8... Ten years ago that would have been an impossible dream.

Every moment of every journey feels like I'm making progress more sharply than 95% of the other cars on the road. I don't need to break the law or be a hooligan, it's just easy, fast, safe and very satisfying real world motoring.

I miss the engine note, I really do. But not so much that I want to return to a slower car that costs me 10x as much to run if I wish to enjoy it.

I always enjoy reading a lot of your posts TD for sure.

You have a lot of honesty/integrity I reckon.

[TheRainMaker]

fatjon said:

My family sized comfortable EV, 0-60 in 3.4 and 0-100 in 7.5 and £10 to fill it for 250 miles
My Cerbera 0-60 in 3.8 0-100 in 8.1 and £110 to fill it for 250 miles.

That is 28 years of development for you

The one thing that is very different about both those cars is that my 8-year-old could drive the EV and hit the 3.4-second 0-60 as well as I could. Doing it in the Cerbera takes a certain level of skill and experience.

[TheDeuce]

TheRainMaker said:

fatjon said:

My family sized comfortable EV, 0-60 in 3.4 and 0-100 in 7.5 and £10 to fill it for 250 miles
My Cerbera 0-60 in 3.8 0-100 in 8.1 and £110 to fill it for 250 miles.

That is 28 years of development for you

The one thing that is very different about both those cars is that my 8-year-old could drive the EV and hit the 3.4-second 0-60 as well as I could. Doing it in the Cerbera takes a certain level of skill and experience.

Getting my wife to agree with me takes skill and experience too - but I don't consider that a benefit

[TheDeuce]

cerb4.5lee said:

I always enjoy reading a lot of your posts TD for sure.

You have a lot of honesty/integrity I reckon.

I try! Thanks!

[fatjon]

TheRainMaker said:

fatjon said:

My family sized comfortable EV, 0-60 in 3.4 and 0-100 in 7.5 and £10 to fill it for 250 miles
My Cerbera 0-60 in 3.8 0-100 in 8.1 and £110 to fill it for 250 miles.

That is 28 years of development for you

The one thing that is very different about both those cars is that my 8-year-old could drive the EV and hit the 3.4-second 0-60 as well as I could. Doing it in the Cerbera takes a certain level of skill and experience.

Not sure that harder to drive is a positive. If it was I would put squidgy springs, broken shocks and a slipping clutch on the TVR and be in heaven.

[TheDeuce]

fatjon said:

TheRainMaker said:

fatjon said:

My family sized comfortable EV, 0-60 in 3.4 and 0-100 in 7.5 and £10 to fill it for 250 miles
My Cerbera 0-60 in 3.8 0-100 in 8.1 and £110 to fill it for 250 miles.

That is 28 years of development for you

The one thing that is very different about both those cars is that my 8-year-old could drive the EV and hit the 3.4-second 0-60 as well as I could. Doing it in the Cerbera takes a certain level of skill and experience.

Not sure that harder to drive is a positive. If it was I would put squidgy springs, broken shocks and a slipping clutch on the TVR and be in heaven.

Exactly. If 'difficult' to get the best out of a car is a pro, go buy a model T Ford, absolute aholes to make progress in! Think how much of a real man you would feel though, no reliance on modern synchro mesh gears and nanny state starter motors.

Real driving, for real men.

[TheRainMaker]

fatjon said:

TheRainMaker said:

fatjon said:

My family sized comfortable EV, 0-60 in 3.4 and 0-100 in 7.5 and £10 to fill it for 250 miles
My Cerbera 0-60 in 3.8 0-100 in 8.1 and £110 to fill it for 250 miles.

That is 28 years of development for you

The one thing that is very different about both those cars is that my 8-year-old could drive the EV and hit the 3.4-second 0-60 as well as I could. Doing it in the Cerbera takes a certain level of skill and experience.

Not sure that harder to drive is a positive. If it was I would put squidgy springs, broken shocks and a slipping clutch on the TVR and be in heaven.

So, what gives you enjoyment when driving the Cerbera? Why do you bother with it?

[fatjon]

TheRainMaker said:

fatjon said:

TheRainMaker said:

fatjon said:

My family sized comfortable EV, 0-60 in 3.4 and 0-100 in 7.5 and £10 to fill it for 250 miles
My Cerbera 0-60 in 3.8 0-100 in 8.1 and £110 to fill it for 250 miles.

That is 28 years of development for you

The one thing that is very different about both those cars is that my 8-year-old could drive the EV and hit the 3.4-second 0-60 as well as I could. Doing it in the Cerbera takes a certain level of skill and experience.

Not sure that harder to drive is a positive. If it was I would put squidgy springs, broken shocks and a slipping clutch on the TVR and be in heaven.

So, what gives you enjoyment when driving the Cerbera? Why do you bother with it?

It sounds great, it’s stunning to look at and keeping something like that alive and working is good fun. That's what I like about it but that does not mean I must pretend it’s faster than my EV or superior to it in any other meaningful way. It’s an inefficient beautiful money pit with what was stunning performance in it’s day but it’s day as a top percentile performance car is sadly coming to an end as modern technology has caught up when a family saloon can outperform it.

[TheRainMaker]

fatjon said:

TheRainMaker said:

fatjon said:

TheRainMaker said:

fatjon said:

My family sized comfortable EV, 0-60 in 3.4 and 0-100 in 7.5 and £10 to fill it for 250 miles
My Cerbera 0-60 in 3.8 0-100 in 8.1 and £110 to fill it for 250 miles.

That is 28 years of development for you

The one thing that is very different about both those cars is that my 8-year-old could drive the EV and hit the 3.4-second 0-60 as well as I could. Doing it in the Cerbera takes a certain level of skill and experience.

Not sure that harder to drive is a positive. If it was I would put squidgy springs, broken shocks and a slipping clutch on the TVR and be in heaven.

So, what gives you enjoyment when driving the Cerbera? Why do you bother with it?

It sounds great, it’s stunning to look at and keeping something like that alive and working is good fun. That's what I like about it but that does not mean I must pretend it’s faster than my EV or superior to it in any other meaningful way. It’s an inefficient beautiful money pit with what was stunning performance in it’s day but it’s day as a top percentile performance car is sadly coming to an end as modern technology has caught up when a family saloon can outperform it.

Who said you need to pretend it's faster than your EV?

My last ICE 10-year-old family car could outperform my Cerbera; that is nothing new.

I get your point about the stunning looks and sound (I had mine for 18 years), but I don't believe you don't enjoy the challenge of driving it.

With the manual gearbox, the engine that revs like a motorbike, no ABS, no traction control—the Cerbera is an epic bit of analogue fun.

An EV is quite dull in comparison. It doesn't matter how fast it is.

[LowTread]

cerb4.5lee said:

TheDeuce said:

fatjon said:

My family sized comfortable EV, 0-60 in 3.4 and 0-100 in 7.5 and £10 to fill it for 250 miles
My Cerbera 0-60 in 3.8 0-100 in 8.1 and £110 to fill it for 250 miles.

So yes, EV acceleration is silly at all speeds that will get you a ticket or a ban not a jail sentence. Yes the TVR will go on to 195+ and the EV “only” 165 but really, who cares on public roads. At all speeds that matter unless you’re barking mad a mid to upper end EV is going to waste pretty much any ICE other than exotics.

Exactly. And I personally prefer 'more goes' when it comes to actually enjoying my car, so EV is the obvious answer. I wake up each morning to a 550hp car with a full tank for about £8... Ten years ago that would have been an impossible dream.

Every moment of every journey feels like I'm making progress more sharply than 95% of the other cars on the road. I don't need to break the law or be a hooligan, it's just easy, fast, safe and very satisfying real world motoring.

I miss the engine note, I really do. But not so much that I want to return to a slower car that costs me 10x as much to run if I wish to enjoy it.

I always enjoy reading a lot of your posts TD for sure.

You have a lot of honesty/integrity I reckon.

Agree with everything above.

Making progress is just ridiculously easy. Launching out of every bend, away from junctions, etc. It actually feels much safer on those really horrible junctions where you have to often pick a gap. In the EV you just bury the throttle - no worries about stalling, no waiting for an auto box to wake up.

For a daily it would now be incredibly hard for me to go back to ICE. As others have said, waking up with 200+ miles every day for a £3 fill is hard to beat. My first full month with the Model 3 shows a £40 increase in the elec bill, and i did 1600 miles.

But TBH it is making me think about changing the Elise for something i can use more often. As it is it's a pure toy, but something like a 911 would make me use it more i think. There are some occasions where i'd like to take a non-EV out for a bit of noise and gear changing, but it's hard to justify when i have to fold myself into the Elise

I think we're in a golden age at the minute. Decent performance ICE cars are plentiful and can be had cheaply. They're not too old that they're still reliable. And there are now an abundance of EVs to suit different budgets, power and range requirements.

In 10 years time we'll think how lucky we were that we had such choice.