EVs and In Gear Acceleration vs ICE

[Nomme de Plum]

TheRainMaker said:

Nomme de Plum said:

GT6k said:

My BMW I3S vs my Cerbera 4.5, soundtrack is of course Cerbera. Surprisingly close.

https://youtu.be/XkU4eRn2d-s?si=TF1Q1cMhRRb3Vql7

I had a Cerbera 4.5 in 98. Went like a rocket, sadly just not very often. The most unreliable car i ever owned. The dealer reckoned they could eventually fix all the badly engineered/ assembled bits. I refused.

I was lucky with mine it was epic, you really can't compare a Cerbera with an i3

Of course there is no comparison. The i3 is properly engineered has 4 proper seats, and easy to enter and exit.

Considering I paid approaching £50K for the Cerbera and out of 13 months ownership it was only roadworthy for about 3 due to faults it was all very unpleasant. I commissioned a full engineering report and it was utterly damming. On receipt I was offered a full refund and compensation, which I accepted.

[TheRainMaker]

Nomme de Plum said:

TheRainMaker said:

Nomme de Plum said:

GT6k said:

My BMW I3S vs my Cerbera 4.5, soundtrack is of course Cerbera. Surprisingly close.

https://youtu.be/XkU4eRn2d-s?si=TF1Q1cMhRRb3Vql7

I had a Cerbera 4.5 in 98. Went like a rocket, sadly just not very often. The most unreliable car i ever owned. The dealer reckoned they could eventually fix all the badly engineered/ assembled bits. I refused.

I was lucky with mine it was epic, you really can't compare a Cerbera with an i3

Of course there is no comparison. The i3 is properly engineered has 4 proper seats, and easy to enter and exit.

Considering I paid approaching £50K for the Cerbera and that, out of 13 months of ownership, it was only roadworthy for about 3 due to faults, it was all very unpleasant. I commissioned a full engineering report, and it was utterly damning. On receipt, I was offered a full refund and compensation, which I accepted.

It sounds like the RS6 I had, but luckily, I only had that four months before Audi took it back and gave me a refund.

[NDNDNDND]

Nomme de Plum said:

NDNDNDND said:

EFA.

Take a while to work that pithy riposte did it?

Not really.

Do you wet yourself with excitement when you buy a new laptop?

[Nomme de Plum]

TheRainMaker said:

Nomme de Plum said:

TheRainMaker said:

Nomme de Plum said:

GT6k said:

My BMW I3S vs my Cerbera 4.5, soundtrack is of course Cerbera. Surprisingly close.

https://youtu.be/XkU4eRn2d-s?si=TF1Q1cMhRRb3Vql7

I had a Cerbera 4.5 in 98. Went like a rocket, sadly just not very often. The most unreliable car i ever owned. The dealer reckoned they could eventually fix all the badly engineered/ assembled bits. I refused.

I was lucky with mine it was epic, you really can't compare a Cerbera with an i3

Of course there is no comparison. The i3 is properly engineered has 4 proper seats, and easy to enter and exit.

Considering I paid approaching £50K for the Cerbera and that, out of 13 months of ownership, it was only roadworthy for about 3 due to faults, it was all very unpleasant. I commissioned a full engineering report, and it was utterly damning. On receipt, I was offered a full refund and compensation, which I accepted.

It sounds like the RS6 I had, but luckily, I only had that four months before Audi took it back and gave me a refund.

It was a real heart over head decision when I bought it. It looked and sounded superb and was wickedly fast. The dealer was really good but the car was so problematic It had to go back as I'd lost all confidence in it so I never got to take it on a track. Anyway live and learn.

[Nomme de Plum]

NDNDNDND said:

Nomme de Plum said:

NDNDNDND said:

EFA.

Take a while to work that pithy riposte did it?

Not really.

Do you wet yourself with excitement when you buy a new laptop?

Maybe you could try and post something vaguely on topic or as they say "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt."

[540TORQUES]

ToothbrushMan said:

The old go to measure of an internal combustion engines flexibility used to be timed between 50 to 75 or 50 to 70mph in 5th or 6th gear.

With the new EVs now does their instant electric shove only mean they are quick from a standing start or are they just as instant in the mid ranges like the old 50-70?

Its not a subject I think Ive seen in any reviews or the comparisons to ICE stablemates. Also many seem to be limited to 112mph but I guess thats due to what is essentially only having a single gear..

A standard Tesla Model 3 does 80-120KM/h (50-75MPH) in 3.4 seconds
My ICE car does it in 2.1 seconds in 3rd gear and 2.4 seconds in 4th gear.
A standard GR Yaris does it in 3.1 seconds in 3rd gear and 3.9 seconds in 4th gear.
My ICE has circa 650Nm in that midrange area on standard pump fuel, so pretty high torque for an everyday ICE compared to 430Nm for the Tesla, which shows how efficient the EV powertrain is. Mine is AWD which doesn't help the losses.

So EV are not the be all and end all in mid range acceleration, but are pretty impressive for a standard road car.

[Zcd1]

From Car & Driver’s first test of the 2018 Tesla Model 3 Performance:

“ Many drivers have come to understand that electric cars accelerate well, thanks to their motor's ability to deliver maximum torque from a standstill. In ordinary daily driving, this is most evident in the Model 3 Dual Motor Performance not so much when pulling away from a stop—although if you insist on being the first driver to cross the intersection, you can be—as when vying for a position in commuter traffic on a major artery, merging onto a highway, or when passing a slower vehicle on a two-lane road. Here, it's not just the instant torque, but also not having to wait for a downshift (there aren't any with the Tesla's direct-drive reduction ratio) that produces stunning real-world responses. This Model 3 needed only 1.4 seconds to leap from 30 to 50 mph and just 2.0 seconds to get from 50 to 70. Never mind other sports sedans—they're not competitive by this measure. This Tesla's mid-range acceleration tops the performance of 700-hp sports cars like the Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 and Porsche 911 GT2 RS, in which there's a moment's delay while automatic transmissions downshift and engines rev up. And the Tesla does it without drama beyond the alarming way it pushes you back into the seat as the car closes on any traffic ahead. There's no jerk and no roar—plant your foot on the accelerator and it simply goes.”

After 2 OTA updates which added around 80 BHP, those 30-50 mph and 50-70 mph increments improved to 1.1 and 1.7 seconds respectively.

Even after 5 years of ownership, the passing acceleration is still shocking every time I use it.

Edited by Zcd1 on Friday 15th March 18:17

[540TORQUES]

said:

After 2 OTA updates which added around 80 BHP, those 30-50 mph and 50-70 mph increments improved to 1.1 and 1.7 seconds respectively.

So that's the top spec model 3? Pretty impressive.

Mine does 30-50 mph in 1.2 and 50-70 mph in 1.7 seconds, so pretty much the same. It would be quicker on the 20% methanol 80% SUL mix, which adds 70Nm.

[Zcd1]

540TORQUES said:

So that's the top spec model 3? Pretty impressive.

Mine does 30-50 mph in 1.2 and 50-70 mph in 1.7 seconds, so pretty much the same. It would be quicker on the 20% methanol 80% SUL mix, which adds 70Nm.

Yes, and no need to be near the top of the power band/in a specific gear/ready - just mat the accelerator and wham - you’re gone.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a36329678/201...

[NDNDNDND]

Nomme de Plum said:

NDNDNDND said:

Nomme de Plum said:

NDNDNDND said:

EFA.

Take a while to work that pithy riposte did it?

Not really.

Do you wet yourself with excitement when you buy a new laptop?

Maybe you could try and post something vaguely on topic or as they say "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt."

Well your posts certainly remove all doubt that you're able to consider anything from someone else's perspective.

[laroche]

540TORQUES said:

said:

After 2 OTA updates which added around 80 BHP, those 30-50 mph and 50-70 mph increments improved to 1.1 and 1.7 seconds respectively.

So that's the top spec model 3? Pretty impressive.

Mine does 30-50 mph in 1.2 and 50-70 mph in 1.7 seconds, so pretty much the same. It would be quicker on the 20% methanol 80% SUL mix, which adds 70Nm.

How much CO2 and NOx does your ICE waggon spew out while it’s keeping up with the Tesla?

[540TORQUES]

Zcd1 said:

Yes, and no need to be near the top of the power band/in a specific gear/ready - just mat the accelerator and wham - you’re gone.

https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a36329678/201...

Neither do i, those figures i gave were in a single gear and just going full throttle. It's not near peak power or using a peaky engine either, it's pretty much flat peak torque for 4krpm. I did put the engine together specifically to produce that kind of toque curve, it could produce another 250 BHP with just a change in turbo spec but would lose the drivability. Thats the error lots make on road car upgrades, they chase power rather than usable torque. You need the gearbox to be strong though. Its going to be interesting to see how the drivelines last on these EV with a lot of miles on them and third owners doing regular launches.

[540TORQUES]

laroche said:

How much CO2 and NOx does your ICE waggon spew out while it’s keeping up with the Tesla?

No idea. It's using closed loop control to keep it efficient, though nothing as good as modern F1 ultra lean engine.

[laroche]

540TORQUES said:

laroche said:

How much CO2 and NOx does your ICE waggon spew out while it’s keeping up with the Tesla?

No idea. It's using closed loop control to keep it efficient, though nothing as good as modern F1 ultra lean engine.

But a tad more than the EV I’d wager?

[GT6k]

Nomme de Plum said:

TheRainMaker said:

Nomme de Plum said:

TheRainMaker said:

Nomme de Plum said:

GT6k said:

My BMW I3S vs my Cerbera 4.5, soundtrack is of course Cerbera. Surprisingly close.

https://youtu.be/XkU4eRn2d-s?si=TF1Q1cMhRRb3Vql7

I had a Cerbera 4.5 in 98. Went like a rocket, sadly just not very often. The most unreliable car i ever owned. The dealer reckoned they could eventually fix all the badly engineered/ assembled bits. I refused.

I was lucky with mine it was epic, you really can't compare a Cerbera with an i3

Of course there is no comparison. The i3 is properly engineered has 4 proper seats, and easy to enter and exit.

Considering I paid approaching £50K for the Cerbera and that, out of 13 months of ownership, it was only roadworthy for about 3 due to faults, it was all very unpleasant. I commissioned a full engineering report, and it was utterly damning. On receipt, I was offered a full refund and compensation, which I accepted.

It sounds like the RS6 I had, but luckily, I only had that four months before Audi took it back and gave me a refund.

It was a real heart over head decision when I bought it. It looked and sounded superb and was wickedly fast. The dealer was really good but the car was so problematic It had to go back as I'd lost all confidence in it so I never got to take it on a track. Anyway live and learn.

You chose poorly. I had my Cerbera for 10 years and 20k miles, plenty of track time and it was superb.

[plfrench]

Zcd1 said:

From Car & Driver’s first test of the 2018 Tesla Model 3 Performance:

“ Many drivers have come to understand that electric cars accelerate well, thanks to their motor's ability to deliver maximum torque from a standstill. In ordinary daily driving, this is most evident in the Model 3 Dual Motor Performance not so much when pulling away from a stop—although if you insist on being the first driver to cross the intersection, you can be—as when vying for a position in commuter traffic on a major artery, merging onto a highway, or when passing a slower vehicle on a two-lane road. Here, it's not just the instant torque, but also not having to wait for a downshift (there aren't any with the Tesla's direct-drive reduction ratio) that produces stunning real-world responses. This Model 3 needed only 1.4 seconds to leap from 30 to 50 mph and just 2.0 seconds to get from 50 to 70. Never mind other sports sedans—they're not competitive by this measure. This Tesla's mid-range acceleration tops the performance of 700-hp sports cars like the Chevrolet Corvette ZR1 and Porsche 911 GT2 RS, in which there's a moment's delay while automatic transmissions downshift and engines rev up. And the Tesla does it without drama beyond the alarming way it pushes you back into the seat as the car closes on any traffic ahead. There's no jerk and no roar—plant your foot on the accelerator and it simply goes.”

After 2 OTA updates which added around 80 BHP, those 30-50 mph and 50-70 mph increments improved to 1.1 and 1.7 seconds respectively.

Even after 5 years of ownership, the passing acceleration is still shocking every time I use it.

Edited by Zcd1 on Friday 15th March 18:17

That article reiterates the point I was making previously but got shot down in flames on PH for - EVs despite their reputation for being drag light queens, are actually not that great off the line, so the traditional 0-60mph metric understates their real-world performance.

What car have you got 540torques? Sounds a pretty serious bit of kit!

[Nomme de Plum]

GT6k said:

You chose poorly. I had my Cerbera for 10 years and 20k miles, plenty of track time and it was superb.

It was new.

[Zcd1]

plfrench said:

That article reiterates the point I was making previously but got shot down in flames on PH for - EVs despite their reputation for being drag light queens, are actually not that great off the line, so the traditional 0-60mph metric understates their real-world performance.

What car have you got 540torques? Sounds a pretty serious bit of kit!

That’s not actually what the article says. Instead it says that the Model 3P’s passing performance is even more impressive than its off-the-line shove, which I’d agree with.

The 3P appears to be software-limited below about 20 mph…

[SWoll]

Zcd1 said:

That’s not actually what the article says. Instead it says that the Model 3P’s passing performance is even more impressive than its off-the-line shove, which I’d agree with.

The 3P appears to be software-limited below about 20 mph…

100%. There's no ludicrous mode or cheetah stance to help as with the Model S but is still silly quick off the mark. 20-70mph is where it really shines though, which in the real world is what really matters when joining a NSL road from a slip or overtaking slower moving traffic etc.

[plfrench]

SWoll said:

Zcd1 said:

That’s not actually what the article says. Instead it says that the Model 3P’s passing performance is even more impressive than its off-the-line shove, which I’d agree with.

The 3P appears to be software-limited below about 20 mph…

100%. There's no ludicrous mode or cheetah stance to help as with the Model S but is still silly quick off the mark. 20-70mph is where it really shines though, which in the real world is what really matters when joining a NSL road from a slip or overtaking slower moving traffic etc.

Agree with both of you, just saying that the favoured 0-60 is too blunt an instrument and undersells the overall performance due to the very initial moving off the line from 0 part is not, comparatively speaking, as strong as once rolling.