EVs - have the financial savings evaporated already?

[OutInTheShed]

To get back to the point, no, I think the savings available from EVs may just be moving to a different point in the market.
An idle stab at Autotarder shows £12k gets you a 38kWh Hy'n'dry, 3 years old.

Write down the capital on that at £2k a year, get a suitable tariff saving you more than £1k a year on fuel, probably cheaper than any petrol car that's not either risky or squalid?

OTOH, a lot of people who bought say an i3 for £10k last year may have lost more in extra depreciation than they've saved in petrol.
Depending on what they'd have bought instead.

[Otispunkmeyer]

For the most part yes. Unless you can charge at home and are willing to suffer more expensive day time electricity in exchange for dirt cheap night rates. We have an EV though only because its a company chariot. If I had to buy it myself I think I wouldn't have bothered, but right now at 3.5 mi/kWh and 9p a kWh its costing me £2 to get to work and back rather than £14. Per day. That is a good £200 a month saving for me.

My question though would be what happens when everyone uses cheap night rates? I suspect they won't be that cheap anymore.


But this was always going to happen. I think anyone who thought EVs were going to stay on the motoring cheap street is deluded. Eventually the cost savings will disappear as demand grows, pushing up prices and things like "road tax" and congestion charges will have to apply to EVs otherwise they won't make any money. A congestion charge really should apply to all vehicles IMO because its trying to deter you from filling up the roads rather than being strictly about air quality. I also expect at some stage there'll be some kind of charge akin to fuel tax that effectively charges you per mile driven. Whether that is added somehow to your electricity bill I don't know. Maybe in the future all home chargers will have to be separately metered for such things.

[Nomme de Plum]

Otispunkmeyer said:

For the most part yes. Unless you can charge at home and are willing to suffer more expensive day time electricity in exchange for dirt cheap night rates. We have an EV though only because its a company chariot. If I had to buy it myself I think I wouldn't have bothered, but right now at 3.5 mi/kWh and 9p a kWh its costing me £2 to get to work and back rather than £14. Per day. That is a good £200 a month saving for me.

My question though would be what happens when everyone uses cheap night rates? I suspect they won't be that cheap anymore.


But this was always going to happen. I think anyone who thought EVs were going to stay on the motoring cheap street is deluded. Eventually the cost savings will disappear as demand grows, pushing up prices and things like "road tax" and congestion charges will have to apply to EVs otherwise they won't make any money. A congestion charge really should apply to all vehicles IMO because its trying to deter you from filling up the roads rather than being strictly about air quality. I also expect at some stage there'll be some kind of charge akin to fuel tax that effectively charges you per mile driven. Whether that is added somehow to your electricity bill I don't know. Maybe in the future all home chargers will have to be separately metered for such things.

I think you are misunderstanding how our power grid and demand works. Although my 7.5p rate formally kick in at 2330 and finishes 0530 the car fairly regularly charges during the day at the same 7.5p rate.


The impact on the grid's max demand is not significant and even in 2035 there will only be 15M EVs

[Otispunkmeyer]

Nomme de Plum said:

Otispunkmeyer said:

For the most part yes. Unless you can charge at home and are willing to suffer more expensive day time electricity in exchange for dirt cheap night rates. We have an EV though only because its a company chariot. If I had to buy it myself I think I wouldn't have bothered, but right now at 3.5 mi/kWh and 9p a kWh its costing me £2 to get to work and back rather than £14. Per day. That is a good £200 a month saving for me.

My question though would be what happens when everyone uses cheap night rates? I suspect they won't be that cheap anymore.


But this was always going to happen. I think anyone who thought EVs were going to stay on the motoring cheap street is deluded. Eventually the cost savings will disappear as demand grows, pushing up prices and things like "road tax" and congestion charges will have to apply to EVs otherwise they won't make any money. A congestion charge really should apply to all vehicles IMO because its trying to deter you from filling up the roads rather than being strictly about air quality. I also expect at some stage there'll be some kind of charge akin to fuel tax that effectively charges you per mile driven. Whether that is added somehow to your electricity bill I don't know. Maybe in the future all home chargers will have to be separately metered for such things.

I think you are misunderstanding how our power grid and demand works. Although my 7.5p rate formally kick in at 2330 and finishes 0530 the car fairly regularly charges during the day at the same 7.5p rate.


The impact on the grid's max demand is not significant and even in 2035 there will only be 15M EVs

Yeah I am not thinking today or even in 10 years time.

But then in 10 years time, maybe we can have Mr Fusions on the back and power our cars with a few banana skins and the dregs of the previous nights beer.

[ahenners]

Otispunkmeyer said:

and are willing to suffer more expensive day time electricity in exchange for dirt cheap night rates.

Glad you mentioned this, it seems to be overlooked and never mentioned by anyone chirping about the cheap night rates. If you have battery storage and/or solar panels etc. its probably less of an issue as you can minimise grid draw during expensive day rates.

[TheDeuce]

ahenners said:

Otispunkmeyer said:

and are willing to suffer more expensive day time electricity in exchange for dirt cheap night rates.

Glad you mentioned this, it seems to be overlooked and never mentioned by anyone chirping about the cheap night rates. If you have battery storage and/or solar panels etc. its probably less of an issue as you can minimise grid draw during expensive day rates.

I have neither, yet for just about anyone doing average-ish miles in an EV it's going to typically use at least half the total household power so cheap rate makes sense as the cheap rate is far cheaper than a standard tariff, the peak rate is only a little more expensive.

In reality the whole house power is cheaper during the 6 off peak hours so it swings heavily towards the cheap rate for most usage, especially if you make the effort to move more usage into those hours.

[OutInTheShed]

Otispunkmeyer said:

...


But this was always going to happen. I think anyone who thought EVs were going to stay on the motoring cheap street is deluded. Eventually the cost savings will disappear as demand grows, pushing up prices and things like "road tax" and congestion charges will have to apply to EVs otherwise they won't make any money. A congestion charge really should apply to all vehicles IMO because its trying to deter you from filling up the roads rather than being strictly about air quality. I also expect at some stage there'll be some kind of charge akin to fuel tax that effectively charges you per mile driven. Whether that is added somehow to your electricity bill I don't know. Maybe in the future all home chargers will have to be separately metered for such things.

I'm sure motoring will get more expensive, but I expect the increased costs which get loaded onto driving an EV will be matched or exceeded by increased costs for driving an IC car.
We can't see in detail very far ahead.
All the normal punter can do is buy a car with a view to their next 2/3/4 years' motoring.
I think it's pretty hard to confidently say how any car will depreciate over the next 2/3/4 years.
So for the majority of people, the biggest cost is unknown.
Unless you either buy pretty cheap, or pay monthly.

[samoht]

ahenners said:

Otispunkmeyer said:

and are willing to suffer more expensive day time electricity in exchange for dirt cheap night rates.

Glad you mentioned this, it seems to be overlooked and never mentioned by anyone chirping about the cheap night rates.

It's worth being aware of, but it's not straightforward as every household situation is different. It depends on the specific rates you get, on how much electricity you use, and on how much of that usage you shift to overnight (dishwasher, laundry). So it's really hard to equate the daytime premium to a straight extra cost per mile driven. In the best cases, buying an EV might actually get you access to a cheap overnight tariff that you'd benefit from even excluding the car charging, if you can move a lot of home use to overnight. In the worse cases it might double the effective fuel cost for your EV.

Overall it muddies the waters, but for most people it ends up being a relatively small cost vs the savings.

[Maracus]

ahenners said:

Otispunkmeyer said:

and are willing to suffer more expensive day time electricity in exchange for dirt cheap night rates.

Glad you mentioned this, it seems to be overlooked and never mentioned by anyone chirping about the cheap night rates. If you have battery storage and/or solar panels etc. its probably less of an issue as you can minimise grid draw during expensive day rates.

Thought I'd chirp in

It's 1p/kWh more for the on peak using on Octopus Intelligent than the standard rate where I live. 28p vs 29p for 05:30 to 23:30.

So it works out way cheaper with the 7.5p 6 hour period that I can use for the car, dishwasher, immersion, etc.

[TheDeuce]

To make it relatively simple, if inaccurate.. We're a fairly modern 4 bed house, quite a large one with gas heating. Our average cost pkwh is now less than 12p with Octopus Intelligent.

We have one car, our EV. We both work from home mostly these days.

We make a little effort to bump dishwasher etc into the cheap hours but aren't very disciplined about it.

We would have to charge our car very little or use an ungodly amount of household electricity to make the split rate tariff not worthwhile.

As a bonus, two years after switching to intelligent octopus, we have never plugged our car in, even if nearly flat, at any time of the day, and not been given enough cheap rate hours to fully charge it. Sometimes there's a two hour pause during peak times, but if the car needs 14 hours of charging and I plug in midday, it'll give me 14 hours of cheap rate so the car is ready by 8am at the latest the following day.

[Grapevine226]

We're in a 3 bed semi, there's 3 of us and we've one EV to power. Averaging around 350kwh of charging per month. Time the tumble dryer and dishwasher to come on at night, and currently averaging around 13.5ppkwh. The slightly higher daytime rate is easily offset.

[NDA]

LimaDelta said:

In real terms, for the average (non-company/non-BIK) driver, is a BEV actually any cheaper to run than a similarly sized ICE anymore? Is this becoming Dieselgate part 2?

Similarly sized or similar performance?

5p a mile for a 490 bhp car is probably hard to beat. Not everyone wants to drive a Suzuki Celerio. Whatever that is.

[TheDeuce]

NDA said:

LimaDelta said:

In real terms, for the average (non-company/non-BIK) driver, is a BEV actually any cheaper to run than a similarly sized ICE anymore? Is this becoming Dieselgate part 2?

Similarly sized or similar performance?

5p a mile for a 490 bhp car is probably hard to beat. Not everyone wants to drive a Suzuki Celerio. Whatever that is.

If you start adding EV performance and comparing it to similar performing ICE cars then there is zero debate about which is cheaper! My 550hp EV costs £7 per 200 miles if I drive it like I stole it. My old 450hp MR2, put your foot down and it was at best 4mpg I reckon! Even my old semi sensible 430D averaged just 330hp and that took 5.6 seconds to 60. The i4 takes 3.3 seconds...

And the more powerful the ICE car, the more expensive brakes becomes, and typically routine servicing too.

My car is likely cheaper than a Suzuki celery to run in fact!

[Gerradi]

[quote=TheDeuce]

My old 450hp MR2, put your foot down and it was at best 4mpg I reckon! /quote]

I used to think my tuned 600 Bhp E55 AMG was ridiculous @9mg when booting it but 4mpg?! Was the tank leaking?

[Nomme de Plum]

Gerradi said:

TheDeuce said:

My old 450hp MR2, put your foot down and it was at best 4mpg I reckon! /quote]

I used to think my tuned 600 Bhp E55 AMG was ridiculous @9mg when booting it but 4mpg?! Was the tank leaking?

My 380bhp supercharged S1 Exige was well down in single figures when I tracked it. Energy has to come from somewhere.

[TheDeuce]

Gerradi]heDeuce said:

My old 450hp MR2, put your foot down and it was at best 4mpg I reckon!

I used to think my tuned 600 Bhp E55 AMG was ridiculous @9mg when booting it but 4mpg?! Was the tank leaking?

'when' putting the foot down, both of us were likely less than 4mpg.

As an average during a spirited drive, of course the mpg creeps back up - because you can't always have your foot down.

The MR2 was running high lift cams, bigger injectors, higher pressure turbo, water injection... It was a terrible car in the end

Anyway, the point was that a simple electric motor has even more power and considerably more torque and costs peanuts to 'fuel' even if you do drive for fun, not efficiency. Before EV, no performance car was affordable to actually use as a performance car - use the performance = empty wallet.

[page3]

ahenners said:

Otispunkmeyer said:

and are willing to suffer more expensive day time electricity in exchange for dirt cheap night rates.

Glad you mentioned this, it seems to be overlooked and never mentioned by anyone chirping about the cheap night rates. If you have battery storage and/or solar panels etc. its probably less of an issue as you can minimise grid draw during expensive day rates.

We have two EVs but swapped the overnight EV rate (Octopus Go) for a daily dynamic tariff (Octopus Tracker) quite a while ago. We average around 17p/kWh rather than 23p/kWh with Go, which still makes it very cheap to run, especially compared to other 0-60 in 5 seconds cars.

[TheDeuce]

page3 said:

ahenners said:

Otispunkmeyer said:

and are willing to suffer more expensive day time electricity in exchange for dirt cheap night rates.

Glad you mentioned this, it seems to be overlooked and never mentioned by anyone chirping about the cheap night rates. If you have battery storage and/or solar panels etc. its probably less of an issue as you can minimise grid draw during expensive day rates.

We have two EVs but swapped the overnight EV rate (Octopus Go) for a daily dynamic tariff (Octopus Tracker) quite a while ago. We average around 17p/kWh rather than 23p/kWh with Go, which still makes it very cheap to run, especially compared to other 0-60 in 5 seconds cars.

We average 12p with one EV on intelligent octopus.

If you have an EV why were you on go? Intelligent would be far cheaper.

[The OG Jester]

I paid £11.56 for 161.9 kwh last month so essentially 2 full chargers for around 500 miles. Yes, 11quid! Last month was the last free council charges in my area but even charging from home I'm still saving cash.

I'm glad I haven't bought an EV though, the discounts I'm seeing on new is unreal as is the depreciation! My i4 was £62k list price, a 2 year example with 20k miles are now going for sub £35k. I also had a look to see what kind of discounts EV's are new. My wife's company are buying her a car, and Citroen C4 had £15k off the RRP in some places.

I'm guessing the arse has started to fall out the EV market already?

[TheDeuce]

The OG Jester said:

I paid £11.56 for 161.9 kwh last month so essentially 2 full chargers for around 500 miles. Yes, 11quid! Last month was the last free council charges in my area but even charging from home I'm still saving cash.

I'm glad I haven't bought an EV though, the discounts I'm seeing on new is unreal as is the depreciation! My i4 was £62k list price, a 2 year example with 20k miles are now going for sub £35k. I also had a look to see what kind of discounts EV's are new. My wife's company are buying her a car, and Citroen C4 had £15k off the RRP in some places.

I'm guessing the arse has started to fall out the EV market already?

Why guess ahead of taking a proper look at the numbers? The RRP of the cars is daft, no one is buying them for those prices either from the dealers or 'buying' via lease - not unless they're insane.

Add up the total cost of your i4 lease for the first 2 years, remove 20% for the lease companies revenue, then add that to what the 2 year old one is selling for, that's approx. the effective price the cars are being 'sold' for.

This has been the case from day one of the UK EV market - so it's 'arse' has not fallen and remains exactly as pert as those selling the cars desire it to be