EVs - have the financial savings evaporated already?

[LimaDelta]

I'm not in any way anti-BEV, we just don't happen to have one anymore. We did have an i3 for three years, and it was great at the time, and made even better for the fact it felt so cheap to own and run it was free. Since then though, EV purchase prices seem to be ever increasing, with the manufacturer effectively factoring into the purchase price any fuel savings from which you may benefit. Insurance costs for BEVs are rocketing, and they are now doing away with the zero RFL rate. How long before they also become liable for congestion zone charging too?

In real terms, for the average (non-company/non-BIK) driver, is a BEV actually any cheaper to run than a similarly sized ICE anymore? Is this becoming Dieselgate part 2?

[georgeyboy12345]

Dieselgate was about a company intentionally cheating on a legally mandated emissions test. This is not, so no.

[LimaDelta]

georgeyboy12345 said:

Dieselgate was about a company intentionally cheating on a legally mandated emissions test. This is not, so no.

I used the term (perhaps incorrectly) to describe the government push to encourage people to swap small petrol cars for small diesel cars which were unsuitable for short journeys, rather than the emissions/consumption cheating by various manufacturers.

[740EVTORQUES]

If you charge 100% at public chargers then possibly, otherwise no.

Charging at home at 8p/kWh means 2-3p/ mile.

With fuel at current prices that’s the equivalent of around 200mpg

That’s a heck of a saving even if insurance is (a bit) higher.

Add in lower servicing costs as well.

I save around £4,000 a year compared to my old petrol car for a vehicle which is faster, quieter and more comfortable.

No road tax (till next year)

Sure depreciation on a new one is high (but so it is for any brand new car). It that only makes nearly new a great buy for non company car drivers.

If you can largely charge at home then an EV, as well as being much more convenient than petrol and nicer to drive 95% of the time, is almost certainly a lot cheaper too.

(Note I haven’t mentioned saving polar bears once?)

[LimaDelta]

740EVTORQUES said:

(Note I haven’t mentioned saving polar bears once?)

Quite rightly so.

For us, the i3 was a purely financial decision. The 60 mile per day school run was costing around £400 per month in diesel in the OHs Shogun, and once we made the swap, it was costing around £50 per month in electricity, the remaining £350 or so paid for the car, hence my OP comment about it being 'free'. I think as BEV adoption becomes more widespread, the manufacturers will continue to ratchet up prices, and any savings in fuel will be eaten up by the increased purchase price. By then of course, there will be no ICE option to fall back on, and BEV will be the norm.

[Nomme de Plum]

LimaDelta said:

740EVTORQUES said:

(Note I haven’t mentioned saving polar bears once?)

Quite rightly so.

For us, the i3 was a purely financial decision. The 60 mile per day school run was costing around £400 per month in diesel in the OHs Shogun, and once we made the swap, it was costing around £50 per month in electricity, the remaining £350 or so paid for the car, hence my OP comment about it being 'free'. I think as BEV adoption becomes more widespread, the manufacturers will continue to ratchet up prices, and any savings in fuel will be eaten up by the increased purchase price. By then of course, there will be no ICE option to fall back on, and BEV will be the norm.

How can they ratchet up prices with cheap Chinese imports? Motor manufacturing is a competitive business like any other. Economies of scale will assist in keeping prices lower than they would otherwise be.

It is certainly the cheapest motoring I've done in a quite a long time. I don't buy new and pay cash so no financing costs.

[LimaDelta]

Nomme de Plum said:

How can they ratchet up prices with cheap Chinese imports? Motor manufacturing is a competitive business like any other. Economies of scale will assist in keeping prices lower than they would otherwise be.

It is certainly the cheapest motoring I've done in a quite a long time. I don't buy new and pay cash so no financing costs.

Maybe the Chinese will take up the lower end of the market, but with no service or support here, insurance costs are going to be higher than for an established manufacturer with a strong European presence surely? IDK, hence the thread.

[Nomme de Plum]

LimaDelta said:

Nomme de Plum said:

How can they ratchet up prices with cheap Chinese imports? Motor manufacturing is a competitive business like any other. Economies of scale will assist in keeping prices lower than they would otherwise be.

It is certainly the cheapest motoring I've done in a quite a long time. I don't buy new and pay cash so no financing costs.

Maybe the Chinese will take up the lower end of the market, but with no service or support here, insurance costs are going to be higher than for an established manufacturer with a strong European presence surely? IDK, hence the thread.

I wonder how we managed when Datsun and Toyota first sold cars in the UK. The service and support will exist as demand increases. EVs need less maintenance and normal running gear stuff can be done by independents. I've already asked independents in this regard when I got my first EV MOT so I know it works.

I think you are guessing without any evidence.

[RazerSauber]

Nothing in this world is free, and if there is a benefit from it then expect that benefit to be minimized and taxed in other ways in short order.

I've seen the odd video popping up here and there about EV's not being viable for some use cases now and it ended up costing more in an EV than a relatively economical petrol vehicle, mostly due to massively inflated charging costs in public places. The difference was only a few quid but it was one trip through a large city (Birmingham, if memory serves). It would soon add up. That being said, charging at home would quickly sway things back in an EV's favour.

The Government was never going to let the overall cost of motoring go down without a fight, it was only a matter of time before they started other taxes to bring EV revenue up.

[740EVTORQUES]

LimaDelta said:

Nomme de Plum said:

How can they ratchet up prices with cheap Chinese imports? Motor manufacturing is a competitive business like any other. Economies of scale will assist in keeping prices lower than they would otherwise be.

It is certainly the cheapest motoring I've done in a quite a long time. I don't buy new and pay cash so no financing costs.

Maybe the Chinese will take up the lower end of the market, but with no service or support here, insurance costs are going to be higher than for an established manufacturer with a strong European presence surely? IDK, hence the thread.

This is the kind of head-in-sand wishful thinking that will see the Chinese and South Korean car makers do to European manufacturers what the Japanese did to the UK car makers in the 80's and 90's (or at least the ones that they have not already bought up.)

[LimaDelta]

740EVTORQUES said:

This is the kind of head-in-sand wishful thinking

Nothing 'wishful' about it. I have no skin in the game. It's just idle curiosity, that's all.

[SDK]

The savings of going EV haven't been there for people not 'buying' through a company scheme, and/or have no home charging for 2+ years already.

If you can charge at home then now is great time to buy a used EV's as prices are very low.
It only takes a swing in tax on ICE cars, or a surge up on fuel prices and that could swap around very quickly.


My scenario is an EV through Salary Sacrifice, home charging, home solar & battery storage, and on Octopus Intelligent.
My EV running costs
-> Through Winter when the solar generation is lower it's 2p to 3p per mile.
-> From March to September, when solar generation is better it's 0p to 1p per mile

My EV (£80k BMW iX) costs me £700 a month which includes insurance, maintenance and replacement tyres.
From this time next year this increases to £713 per month, with the VED being included for BEV's

Edited by SDK on Wednesday 27th March 10:58

[cvega]

It still costs me £3 to travel 150 miles.

So no, i'm still saving a metric stton compared to my petrol car.

[SarGara]

cvega said:

It still costs me £3 to travel 150 miles.

So no, i'm still saving a metric stton compared to my petrol car.

If you ignore the depreciation and initial purchase price hike an EV commands, perhaps.

[Sheepshanks]

740EVTORQUES said:

If you charge 100% at public chargers then possibly, otherwise no.

Charging at home at 8p/kWh means 2-3p/ mile.

With fuel at current prices that’s the equivalent of around 200mpg

That’s a heck of a saving even if insurance is (a bit) higher.

Add in lower servicing costs as well.

I save around £4,000 a year compared to my old petrol car for a vehicle which is faster, quieter and more comfortable.

No road tax (till next year)

Sure depreciation on a new one is high (but so it is for any brand new car). It that only makes nearly new a great buy for non company car drivers.

If you can largely charge at home then an EV, as well as being much more convenient than petrol and nicer to drive 95% of the time, is almost certainly a lot cheaper too.

(Note I haven’t mentioned saving polar bears once?)

EVs will be cheaper for a while, so it makes sense to grab the savings while you can.

Eventually, somehow, the costs will even up. Cheap rate electricity will get more expensive, but the major thing will be per mile road charging, which for someone like you doing a lot of miles, will be very expensive.

[TheDeuce]

EV's are coming down in price, generally. Although in defence of the Chinese and Korean cars taking a chunk out of the 'affordable car' market, many of the European manufacturers are going more upmarket with their product.

I think it's at least as cheap to run and purchase an EV today as it ever was, despite world events affecting energy prices..

[James6112]

Sheepshanks said:

…….
Cheap rate electricity will get more expensive, but the major thing will be per mile road charging, which for someone like you doing a lot of miles, will be very expensive.

Cheap rate electricity could get cheaper, saying it will get more expensive is not true.

Per mile road charging, instead of car tax, is the fairest way.

[TheDeuce]

James6112 said:

Sheepshanks said:

…….
Cheap rate electricity will get more expensive, but the major thing will be per mile road charging, which for someone like you doing a lot of miles, will be very expensive.

Cheap rate electricity could get cheaper, saying it will get more expensive is not true.

Per mile road charging, instead of car tax, is the fairest way.

Cheap rate power is here to stay - it's a mechanism that is required to encourage people to buy cars with batteries and house batteries to better balance grid loading.

Agree about the fairness aspect of road charging, despite the obvious political hurdles/upsets of getting it in place. But road charging is not likely to make EV's comparatively more expensive than the ICE alternative, it'll either be a blanket rate for all per mile - so not a factor in car choice, or factor in emissions, as part of a move to deter heavy ICE use.

[Nomme de Plum]

SarGara said:

cvega said:

It still costs me £3 to travel 150 miles.

So no, i'm still saving a metric stton compared to my petrol car.

If you ignore the depreciation and initial purchase price hike an EV commands, perhaps.

Not at all. Facts rather than speculation. My EV is depreciating at the same rate as the ICE I had previously.

I bought used anyway. Again the price I paid was bang on a normal depreciation curve.

Zero maintenance so far and 2.5p / mile for 99% of my driving. Just renewed my protected no claims insurance with legal cover for just over £500.

[Nomme de Plum]

Sheepshanks said:

EVs will be cheaper for a while, so it makes sense to grab the savings while you can.

Eventually, somehow, the costs will even up. Cheap rate electricity will get more expensive, but the major thing will be per mile road charging, which for someone like you doing a lot of miles, will be very expensive.

Road pricing is quite logical but not EV related. Somehow tax needs to be raised. The only debate is how?

Why would electricity go up? What is your logic behind making this statement? That's not saying that the UK is not subject to global energy cost fluctuations . That's a function of us deciding to allow commercial companies export our oil and gas reserves.

Those with PVs of course are in a great place.