RE: PH Blog: has Audi ruined Le Mans?
Discussion
Chris Harris said:
It's prototypes that kill it.
Audi somehow justifies the massive spend in marketing terms (even though it only mentioned rallying at the at the new RS4 launch last week) despite the fact the LMP1 cars look nothing like cars. Porsche are on-stream, hopefully Toyota will be back. But the grid would be more diverse if the cars had to be based on production machines.
Of course that's already the case in the GT class. But the telly cameras spend more time lingering on Dr. Ulrich's pseudo-anguised fizzog than on the entire GT class, so we barely get to see any of it.
Remember Macca v F40 v 993 GT2? Now we get silent racing slippers ghosting their way at insane speeds.
Whole thing needs a shake-up.
The coverage was unbearable yesterday in the closing stages when the Corvette was chasing the GT3 for the lead. Instead of (by the sound of the commentators screaming) seeing an epic battle unfold, we saw pictures of the pit garages and the 'ultra-motion' shots over and over!Audi somehow justifies the massive spend in marketing terms (even though it only mentioned rallying at the at the new RS4 launch last week) despite the fact the LMP1 cars look nothing like cars. Porsche are on-stream, hopefully Toyota will be back. But the grid would be more diverse if the cars had to be based on production machines.
Of course that's already the case in the GT class. But the telly cameras spend more time lingering on Dr. Ulrich's pseudo-anguised fizzog than on the entire GT class, so we barely get to see any of it.
Remember Macca v F40 v 993 GT2? Now we get silent racing slippers ghosting their way at insane speeds.
Whole thing needs a shake-up.
We finally got a picture of the action; just as the Corvette began pulling away having already completed the overtake
The live feed director was most to blame for the Audi fest (on tv only obviously). I think the race was probably amazingly exciting, we just didn't get to see it. Eurosport despite having 24hour coverage which was nice, could only show what they were given.
A feed for each class would be incredible - some sort of red button thingy maybe.
Echoing other comments made...
No one can complain or comment in a negative way about the effort the Audi team, engineers and designers have put in and the reward is a most deserved string of victories.
However...The race in the past fews years has bored me as its an almost dead cert Audi would win.
1 of the years they didnt (in the last 13) was because the cars where badged as Bentley too.
No one can complain or comment in a negative way about the effort the Audi team, engineers and designers have put in and the reward is a most deserved string of victories.
However...The race in the past fews years has bored me as its an almost dead cert Audi would win.
1 of the years they didnt (in the last 13) was because the cars where badged as Bentley too.
cjb1 said:
Porsche won Le Mans five more times than Audi have I believe? The Porsche team return in 2014 so maybe the tables will turn, or, at least it will be more competetive?
Think of the period where Porsche have notched up their wins. Now look at Audi, and their period. Utter domination. If things continue as they are It won't be long before Audi are the holder of most victories.Agree with some other comments about too much focus on Audi, it seems like a massive PR exercise sometimes. Sure their input has been great but we need a team who can mix things up a lot.
Once the Toyota retired I felt really disappointed, crowds this year were down too. May have something to do with a one horse race. I know Toyota did better than expected but the end results were inevitable.
Shame they(TV stations) kept cutting away to focus on the LMP1 stuff when there were some epic battles in other classes.
Yeah - let's ban Audi and go back to the good old days of GT40's and 917's.....errrr
I know you are a journalist and just trying to stoke up some debate but to criticise a manufacturer for embracing motorsport is ludicrous.
At the beginning of the year we had a three-way maufacturer battle in prospect with Audi, Peugeot & Toyota. You cannot blame Audi for Peugeot pulling out and Toyota crashing.
Do you really want to reduce Le Mans to series of small teams who cannot afford to pay top level drivers or develop innovative new cars? Would you bother travelling over there to watch knowing it was not a top level event? Really? So a Zytek beats an Oreca with some unknown pro drivers and a couple of rich amateurs at the wheel... not sure I'd make the journey.
Sure we all want more competition and I know Audi were genuinely gutted when Peugeot annouced they were pulling out at Sebring - especially after last years' race was so close (they won by just 14 seconds). Competition is good for the new world championship and therefore good for business.
Please don't have a go at Audi - they are passionate about motorsport and especially endurance racing as it's the perfect demonstration of the brands strengths - perfotrmance, reliability & innovation.
Toyota will be even stronger next year and we have Porsche waiting in the wings too.
As for Audi owning the event - rubbish - it may look like that whilst sipping bubby from the Audi Terrace but the reality is that the weekend is still the perfect party for the regular enthusiast.
Let's stop this silliness
vescaegg said:
Chris Harris said:
It's prototypes that kill it.
Audi somehow justifies the massive spend in marketing terms (even though it only mentioned rallying at the at the new RS4 launch last week) despite the fact the LMP1 cars look nothing like cars. Porsche are on-stream, hopefully Toyota will be back. But the grid would be more diverse if the cars had to be based on production machines.
Of course that's already the case in the GT class. But the telly cameras spend more time lingering on Dr. Ulrich's pseudo-anguised fizzog than on the entire GT class, so we barely get to see any of it.
Remember Macca v F40 v 993 GT2? Now we get silent racing slippers ghosting their way at insane speeds.
Whole thing needs a shake-up.
The coverage was unbearable yesterday in the closing stages when the Corvette was chasing the GT3 for the lead. Instead of (by the sound of the commentators screaming) seeing an epic battle unfold, we saw pictures of the pit garages and the 'ultra-motion' shots over and over!Audi somehow justifies the massive spend in marketing terms (even though it only mentioned rallying at the at the new RS4 launch last week) despite the fact the LMP1 cars look nothing like cars. Porsche are on-stream, hopefully Toyota will be back. But the grid would be more diverse if the cars had to be based on production machines.
Of course that's already the case in the GT class. But the telly cameras spend more time lingering on Dr. Ulrich's pseudo-anguised fizzog than on the entire GT class, so we barely get to see any of it.
Remember Macca v F40 v 993 GT2? Now we get silent racing slippers ghosting their way at insane speeds.
Whole thing needs a shake-up.
We finally got a picture of the action; just as the Corvette began pulling away having already completed the overtake
The live feed director was most to blame for the Audi fest (on tv only obviously). I think the race was probably amazingly exciting, we just didn't get to see it. Eurosport despite having 24hour coverage which was nice, could only show what they were given.
A feed for each class would be incredible - some sort of red button thingy maybe.
Do you know, I class Le Mans with F1 and WRC; predictable, boring and (generally) one team or driver dominates.
That's why, despite not being a (ho)motorcyclist, I prefer Moto GP - there's always different winners and there's generally a battle for the podium places right up to the chequered flag.
That's why, despite not being a (ho)motorcyclist, I prefer Moto GP - there's always different winners and there's generally a battle for the podium places right up to the chequered flag.
xspencex said:
I struggle to enjoy an Audi win, respect, yes but certainly not enjoy. Trampling over the other competitors, out spending, out testing and out LED'ing. . .
C'mon, not even a slight smile when the Pugs failed in their bullying ways in 2011, and the sole remaining car held out in front of the home crowd? Made me happy!Back on topic tho, was only slightly interested in the result after the Toyota's challenge faltered, so something's not right. Hope the new comers make it more of a competition.
I broadly agree with some of what Mr Harris says.
The lack of a truly competitive at least road derived class does spoil the spectacle. In the mid-late 90s GT1 rules allowed for things like the F1 and F40 and the Venturi to be at least broadly on the pace.
However, you cannot completely dismiss the Prototypes as the have always been around (at least in principal if not regulation) and are equally as big a part of Le Mans heritage and character. See such PH staples as Ferrari P4, Prorsche 917, Porsche 962, Jaguar XJR9, Mercedes C9, Mazda 787 were not exactly road derivatives!
The lack of a truly competitive at least road derived class does spoil the spectacle. In the mid-late 90s GT1 rules allowed for things like the F1 and F40 and the Venturi to be at least broadly on the pace.
However, you cannot completely dismiss the Prototypes as the have always been around (at least in principal if not regulation) and are equally as big a part of Le Mans heritage and character. See such PH staples as Ferrari P4, Prorsche 917, Porsche 962, Jaguar XJR9, Mercedes C9, Mazda 787 were not exactly road derivatives!
rtz62 said:
Do you know, I class Le Mans with F1 and WRC; predictable, boring and (generally) one team or driver dominates.
That's why, despite not being a (ho)motorcyclist, I prefer Moto GP - there's always different winners and there's generally a battle for the podium places right up to the chequered flag.
While I agree with you in general....remind me again which F1 driver / team is dominating the championship this year?That's why, despite not being a (ho)motorcyclist, I prefer Moto GP - there's always different winners and there's generally a battle for the podium places right up to the chequered flag.
do you really think that Porsche's boffins have stood still since they we're the dominant ones at Le Mans? do you not think that whilst Audi have been flaunting their engineering excellence in public Herr Porsche and his mates have been sitting back thinking "Ha dast ist ein nice Audi, unt it iz vinning all der razing, letz us just ignore zees and comenzee back in 2014 vit der old design 962 and getten der s
t kicked out of uzz?? No, Porsche will be back with a revolutionary design from Stuttgart and be a force to be reckoned with I'm sure
t kicked out of uzz?? No, Porsche will be back with a revolutionary design from Stuttgart and be a force to be reckoned with I'm sureDr Imran T said:
Think of the period where Porsche have notched up their wins. Now look at Audi, and their period.
Good topic.
For anyone who listens to Radio Le-Mans, this has been discussed quite a bit recently before the event. And many of the comments above mirror those heard on Radio Le-Mans.
IMO It's not really Audi's fault as such. They've come along and done the best job they can to win. You could argue they've raised the popularity of the event as well, or certianly opened it up to a much bigger audience.........Would we have the 24 hour TV coverage we all enjoy if Audi hadn't turned up?
Nurburgring 24hr, possibly a better event. But doesn't have the huge interest of Le-Mans.
Audi's the biggest supporter of the event, so is it really fair to look at handicapping them becasue they've done such a good job? The flip side of that is how else do you give others a chance if other big manufacturers can't or won't stump up the enormous amounts of money required?
Toyota are in it now 3 years, this was mentioned on RLM. So with some luck they'll give us something to cheer about for a bit longer next year. Then Porsche in 2014.......The cynic may say how hard will the top brass at VAG allow Porsche and Audi to battle?????? Depends who's got the biggest value marketing wise.
For anyone who listens to Radio Le-Mans, this has been discussed quite a bit recently before the event. And many of the comments above mirror those heard on Radio Le-Mans.
IMO It's not really Audi's fault as such. They've come along and done the best job they can to win. You could argue they've raised the popularity of the event as well, or certianly opened it up to a much bigger audience.........Would we have the 24 hour TV coverage we all enjoy if Audi hadn't turned up?
Nurburgring 24hr, possibly a better event. But doesn't have the huge interest of Le-Mans.
Audi's the biggest supporter of the event, so is it really fair to look at handicapping them becasue they've done such a good job? The flip side of that is how else do you give others a chance if other big manufacturers can't or won't stump up the enormous amounts of money required?
Toyota are in it now 3 years, this was mentioned on RLM. So with some luck they'll give us something to cheer about for a bit longer next year. Then Porsche in 2014.......The cynic may say how hard will the top brass at VAG allow Porsche and Audi to battle?????? Depends who's got the biggest value marketing wise.
I find the GT cars much more exciting to watch. The first few years I went there were McLarens, F40s, Crazy Porsches that had been stretched and lowered, 911s, venturis, corvettes, vipers, and the sound of thunder itself from Don Panoz's cars. All very exciting. They need to get rid of the prototypes.
Last year I was there and couldn't get excited by the Audis. This year I'm going to the classic.
The TV coverage as always was about who's at the front.
Slightly o/t but I had been initially a bit sniffy on other threads about the Delta-wing-Nissan. I take it all back, it looked suprisingly lovely on the track.
Last year I was there and couldn't get excited by the Audis. This year I'm going to the classic.
The TV coverage as always was about who's at the front.
Slightly o/t but I had been initially a bit sniffy on other threads about the Delta-wing-Nissan. I take it all back, it looked suprisingly lovely on the track.
To be honest - the rot set in a good few years ago. The ACO certainly seems to be happy for Audi to spend lots of money transforming the circuit hospitality and paddock area's and seems to repay them in not allowing the privateer teams to get to close to them in terms of equalising rules and as a fan - I stopped visiting the place a good few years ago as many of the things that made Le Mans special have disappeared but its a cracking race to watch on the TV.
Most of the team didn't have any access and watched from the bank with the fans. To be fair to Dan, whilst he had the lanyards he barely spent any time in hospitality - I know because he was with us for most of it! He was with us for a dirty Meguez and frites at Arnage in the middle of the night, not drinking Champagne in the Audi trackside jacuzzi!
So from my experience of Le Mans as a punter, the Audi marketing presence feels a little overwhelming. Every shuttle is an Audi, there are A8s everywhere and their hospitality structures are astonishing to behold. Outside of this though, you don't detect a great amount of warmth towards them. There's no evidence of crowds of flag waving Audi fans at all.
If anything for me LMP1 just highlighted what a shame it is that Peugeot weren't there. Last year the Audi presence was much the same, but nobody really cared because the racing was so close and they had proper rivals.
Further down the field, I thought that Nissan did a great job of getting the fans behind them. The story of the Deltawing is really interesting on so many levels, and they definitely benefitted from "glorious underdog" status all the way through to their off. Just such a shame that it can't be repeated, but it was a fascinating experiment while it lasted.
So from my experience of Le Mans as a punter, the Audi marketing presence feels a little overwhelming. Every shuttle is an Audi, there are A8s everywhere and their hospitality structures are astonishing to behold. Outside of this though, you don't detect a great amount of warmth towards them. There's no evidence of crowds of flag waving Audi fans at all.
If anything for me LMP1 just highlighted what a shame it is that Peugeot weren't there. Last year the Audi presence was much the same, but nobody really cared because the racing was so close and they had proper rivals.
Further down the field, I thought that Nissan did a great job of getting the fans behind them. The story of the Deltawing is really interesting on so many levels, and they definitely benefitted from "glorious underdog" status all the way through to their off. Just such a shame that it can't be repeated, but it was a fascinating experiment while it lasted.
The biggest problem with Audi is running the silent diesel. This has been done to death, so I'm not trying to start a debate on it, but until they start making racing cars that make a decent noise they won't get any support from me. Diesel has it's place, but that place is not in racing cars.
I was hoping, but not expecting, that the Toyotas would challenge the Audis this year, and was plesantly surprised at their pace. Shame the accidents took them both out. It was a shame for the Deltawing as well.
Hopefully 2013 will bring better luck for Toyota and the reign of the diesels will end. We can only hope.
I was hoping, but not expecting, that the Toyotas would challenge the Audis this year, and was plesantly surprised at their pace. Shame the accidents took them both out. It was a shame for the Deltawing as well.
Hopefully 2013 will bring better luck for Toyota and the reign of the diesels will end. We can only hope.
Edited by VladD on Monday 18th June 13:21
Homer J said:
The cynic may say how hard will the top brass at VAG allow Porsche and Audi to battle?????? Depends who's got the biggest value marketing wise.
I think they're going to battle hard. While Le Mans is obviously a big deal for Audi marketing, a big part of the reason they win is because they have passionate engineers involved from the top down. Nobodies going to tell them to hold back to improve Porsches chances. Similarly, I'd imagine that a lot of the old guard at Porsche still consider Le Mans 'their race' and they have a lot of very good engineers out to prove a point. I think it'll be a great race.
I don't think so, though I think the ACO dulled it a little with the rules for a time it's looking much more promising than it has for a while. Without Audi it'd have been Peugeot getting the blame, and so on. While long term dominance can be boring, it usually brings about much more competitive eras afterwards once more teams come onboard with new tech etc.
I definitely think we're long past the most boring era - it's looking quite promising with the Japanese manufacturers looking to make a return in a big way (Toyota looked pretty decent aside of the crap luck, talk of Nissan looking for partners etc), Porsche coming back in, yadda yadda yadda. Also, as WRC looks increasingly less appealing and with rumours of Loeb moving to pastures new, it could all work in LMs favour.
Can't help but think that even though the Deltawing had a tough time of it, the publicity and subsequent surge of public interest will highlight just how good a platform LM can be despite it being a bit of an Audifest in recent years, even if it's just for off-the-cuff development projects.
All promising stuff IMO, and while the last few years perhaps haven't been the most exciting, there's still been fantastic action further down the grid - never fails to impress, I just wish their directors would get their act together and show some of the better battles and utilise more in-car cameras etc.
I definitely think we're long past the most boring era - it's looking quite promising with the Japanese manufacturers looking to make a return in a big way (Toyota looked pretty decent aside of the crap luck, talk of Nissan looking for partners etc), Porsche coming back in, yadda yadda yadda. Also, as WRC looks increasingly less appealing and with rumours of Loeb moving to pastures new, it could all work in LMs favour.
Can't help but think that even though the Deltawing had a tough time of it, the publicity and subsequent surge of public interest will highlight just how good a platform LM can be despite it being a bit of an Audifest in recent years, even if it's just for off-the-cuff development projects.
All promising stuff IMO, and while the last few years perhaps haven't been the most exciting, there's still been fantastic action further down the grid - never fails to impress, I just wish their directors would get their act together and show some of the better battles and utilise more in-car cameras etc.
Edited by Stu R on Monday 18th June 12:57
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