RE: PH Blog: has Audi ruined Le Mans?
Discussion
vescaegg said:
Chris Harris said:
It's prototypes that kill it.
Audi somehow justifies the massive spend in marketing terms (even though it only mentioned rallying at the at the new RS4 launch last week) despite the fact the LMP1 cars look nothing like cars. Porsche are on-stream, hopefully Toyota will be back. But the grid would be more diverse if the cars had to be based on production machines.
Of course that's already the case in the GT class. But the telly cameras spend more time lingering on Dr. Ulrich's pseudo-anguised fizzog than on the entire GT class, so we barely get to see any of it.
Remember Macca v F40 v 993 GT2? Now we get silent racing slippers ghosting their way at insane speeds.
Whole thing needs a shake-up.
The coverage was unbearable yesterday in the closing stages when the Corvette was chasing the GT3 for the lead. Instead of (by the sound of the commentators screaming) seeing an epic battle unfold, we saw pictures of the pit garages and the 'ultra-motion' shots over and over!Audi somehow justifies the massive spend in marketing terms (even though it only mentioned rallying at the at the new RS4 launch last week) despite the fact the LMP1 cars look nothing like cars. Porsche are on-stream, hopefully Toyota will be back. But the grid would be more diverse if the cars had to be based on production machines.
Of course that's already the case in the GT class. But the telly cameras spend more time lingering on Dr. Ulrich's pseudo-anguised fizzog than on the entire GT class, so we barely get to see any of it.
Remember Macca v F40 v 993 GT2? Now we get silent racing slippers ghosting their way at insane speeds.
Whole thing needs a shake-up.
We finally got a picture of the action; just as the Corvette began pulling away having already completed the overtake
The live feed director was most to blame for the Audi fest (on tv only obviously). I think the race was probably amazingly exciting, we just didn't get to see it. Eurosport despite having 24hour coverage which was nice, could only show what they were given.
A feed for each class would be incredible - some sort of red button thingy maybe.
A class-based red button choice would be awesome and solve many of the grievences felt by people who missed out on the GT classes (myself included).
That's racing; racing history is full of examples of domination that is stated as 'making it boring', look at the Cosworth DFV years of F1 domination, the Porsche domination of Leman, the jaguar domination of leman etc.. the decades of Manx Norton domination of the TT and MGP, followed by the at least 2 decades of two stroke race bike domination by the TZ yamaha's...the domination of 125 racing by Hondas litle RS125, the domination of Kart racing by various long running engines (Villiers/ZIP/TZ etc etc etc), the domination of club rallying in the late 70's by the Escort...enjoy it; people will soon talk of the glory days of Audi. Audi are just having their moment, and some body else will be along to break it, then dominate it, and then be declared boring..
Once upon a time, racing deaths were the dark and ugly side of racing; those are now thankfully rare; racings' darkside is now the omnipresence of the marketeers; may they all choke on their free canapes :-) ;-)
Once upon a time, racing deaths were the dark and ugly side of racing; those are now thankfully rare; racings' darkside is now the omnipresence of the marketeers; may they all choke on their free canapes :-) ;-)
Edited by dingocooke on Monday 18th June 13:00
rtz62 said:
Do you know, I class Le Mans with F1 and WRC; predictable, boring and (generally) one team or driver dominates.
That's why, despite not being a (ho)motorcyclist, I prefer Moto GP - there's always different winners and there's generally a battle for the podium places right up to the chequered flag.
F1 predictable with one team/driver dominating? have you not watched this season..? 7 wins to 7 drivers, looks to me like a classic of a seasonThat's why, despite not being a (ho)motorcyclist, I prefer Moto GP - there's always different winners and there's generally a battle for the podium places right up to the chequered flag.
Ruthless Greman efficiency. Audi go racing with thing in mind - to win. If no one can take the fight to them that is hardly their fault is it?
Peugeot ran away this year before the flag even dropped, Toyota at least made an effort & there was/is talk of Honda making a full works entry for next year so that should be some competition for Audi.
Regardless of that I thought that the racing this year was good, courtesy of Eurosport UK, & the general consensus of opinion seems to be that it was a good race which can only be a good thing, regardless of people's opinion regarding the Audi takeover this year.
Cant blame them really can you?
Roll on next year when I might even make the race for the first time since 88!
Peugeot ran away this year before the flag even dropped, Toyota at least made an effort & there was/is talk of Honda making a full works entry for next year so that should be some competition for Audi.
Regardless of that I thought that the racing this year was good, courtesy of Eurosport UK, & the general consensus of opinion seems to be that it was a good race which can only be a good thing, regardless of people's opinion regarding the Audi takeover this year.
Cant blame them really can you?
Roll on next year when I might even make the race for the first time since 88!
rtz62 said:
Do you know, I class Le Mans with F1 and WRC; predictable, boring and (generally) one team or driver dominates.
That's why, despite not being a (ho)motorcyclist, I prefer Moto GP - there's always different winners and there's generally a battle for the podium places right up to the chequered flag.
There's not really though is there? Moto GP is as stale as I can ever remember it being in the 15+ years I've been watching - 90% of them are a precession lately. The fact it's shown up every week without fail by Moto2 speaks volumes IMO. 2 people have won races so far this year, 4 different people last year. It's more of a snore fest than the Schumacher era of F1, and that takes some beating.That's why, despite not being a (ho)motorcyclist, I prefer Moto GP - there's always different winners and there's generally a battle for the podium places right up to the chequered flag.
Edited by Stu R on Monday 18th June 13:16
I was so far from any sort of Corporate hospitality I was on the other side of the Channel! 
(Rubbish) joking aside, though, I think the key is that the manufacturer LMP1 teams don't let the cars go to private teams.
For me, that was what made group C so exciting ,and Porsche so cool for making it happen. In essence they said 'here's the same equipment as our factory team has, come and buy it and see if you can beat us.
I hope they do that this time around, though I fear they won't...
(Rubbish) joking aside, though, I think the key is that the manufacturer LMP1 teams don't let the cars go to private teams.
For me, that was what made group C so exciting ,and Porsche so cool for making it happen. In essence they said 'here's the same equipment as our factory team has, come and buy it and see if you can beat us.
I hope they do that this time around, though I fear they won't...
fatboy69 said:
Ideal solution to the Audi 'problem'.
Group C!
I know it will never happen but if only it could become a reality. What a sight that would be wouldn't it? Oh well. Off to YouTube to watch footage of the Group C support race with the volume turned up quite loud...........
Group C making a return is up there with a modern era of Group B rally cars on my wish list. Group C!
I know it will never happen but if only it could become a reality. What a sight that would be wouldn't it? Oh well. Off to YouTube to watch footage of the Group C support race with the volume turned up quite loud...........
Edited by Stu R on Monday 18th June 13:30
vescaegg said:
The coverage was unbearable yesterday in the closing stages when the Corvette was chasing the GT3 for the lead. Instead of (by the sound of the commentators screaming) seeing an epic battle unfold, we saw pictures of the pit garages and the 'ultra-motion' shots over and over!
We finally got a picture of the action; just as the Corvette began pulling away having already completed the overtake
The live feed director was most to blame for the Audi fest (on tv only obviously). I think the race was probably amazingly exciting, we just didn't get to see it. Eurosport despite having 24hour coverage which was nice, could only show what they were given.
A feed for each class would be incredible - some sort of red button thingy maybe.
I was shouting at the screen during the latter stages - The Audi's had sown up the LMP1 win, and in the dying laps of race we had a potentially amazing scrap for GTAM class honours. Couldn't believe it - because for the most part the coverage was ok (if overly biased towards LMP1) We finally got a picture of the action; just as the Corvette began pulling away having already completed the overtake
The live feed director was most to blame for the Audi fest (on tv only obviously). I think the race was probably amazingly exciting, we just didn't get to see it. Eurosport despite having 24hour coverage which was nice, could only show what they were given.
A feed for each class would be incredible - some sort of red button thingy maybe.
vescaegg said:
The coverage was unbearable yesterday in the closing stages when the Corvette was chasing the GT3 for the lead. Instead of (by the sound of the commentators screaming) seeing an epic battle unfold, we saw pictures of the pit garages and the 'ultra-motion' shots over and over!
We finally got a picture of the action; just as the Corvette began pulling away having already completed the overtake
The live feed director was most to blame for the Audi fest (on tv only obviously). I think the race was probably amazingly exciting, we just didn't get to see it. Eurosport despite having 24hour coverage which was nice, could only show what they were given.
A feed for each class would be incredible - some sort of red button thingy maybe.
This, there was some great racing going on in the other classes just didnt see most of it. Though we did get to see aston and corvette do some great racing in the opening hours of the race.We finally got a picture of the action; just as the Corvette began pulling away having already completed the overtake
The live feed director was most to blame for the Audi fest (on tv only obviously). I think the race was probably amazingly exciting, we just didn't get to see it. Eurosport despite having 24hour coverage which was nice, could only show what they were given.
A feed for each class would be incredible - some sort of red button thingy maybe.
For me LMP1 is boring now. Credit to Audi for building amazing cars which are so well designed that no matter what happens in the race they seem to be able to swap out the parts quickly and easily. But until there is some competition for Audi it will always be boring compared to the rest of the field. Hopefully Toyota come back stronger next year to fix this.
Chris Harris said:
It's prototypes that kill it.
Audi somehow justifies the massive spend in marketing terms (even though it only mentioned rallying at the at the new RS4 launch last week) despite the fact the LMP1 cars look nothing like cars. Porsche are on-stream, hopefully Toyota will be back. But the grid would be more diverse if the cars had to be based on production machines.
Of course that's already the case in the GT class. But the telly cameras spend more time lingering on Dr. Ulrich's pseudo-anguised fizzog than on the entire GT class, so we barely get to see any of it.
Remember Macca v F40 v 993 GT2? Now we get silent racing slippers ghosting their way at insane speeds.
Whole thing needs a shake-up.
Balls. Audi somehow justifies the massive spend in marketing terms (even though it only mentioned rallying at the at the new RS4 launch last week) despite the fact the LMP1 cars look nothing like cars. Porsche are on-stream, hopefully Toyota will be back. But the grid would be more diverse if the cars had to be based on production machines.
Of course that's already the case in the GT class. But the telly cameras spend more time lingering on Dr. Ulrich's pseudo-anguised fizzog than on the entire GT class, so we barely get to see any of it.
Remember Macca v F40 v 993 GT2? Now we get silent racing slippers ghosting their way at insane speeds.
Whole thing needs a shake-up.
Much as I love the F1 and F40, they looked second rate compared to the old group C cars - they're (admittedly stunning) road cars for goodness sake!
Obviously Le Mans started off that way, but I love the prototypes, they look awesome.
It does need something, but there are always the battles going on in GT2 or wherever that you can watch if 997s and Corvettes are your thing.
And I don't know what channel you were watching on, but I hardly saw anything of LMP1, at least for the first half - they spent ages following the Aston, Corvette, Ferrari battle, for instance (must admit I did enjoy that).
I would like to see diesel banned though. I just enjoy watching all the different battles, and all the different speeds.
EDIT: Didn't realise we missed out on the Corvette battles towards the end of the race, I missed out entirely as I had to go to a Christening! Boo. So I guess the second half was different. Apologies.
Edited by pthelazyjourno on Monday 18th June 13:45
Agree with most comments re. TV coverage, there was too much focus on Audi. I am not not Audi bashing as I feel they have been great for Le Mans but there needs to be more balanced coverage.
I watched it this year on Eurosport and really liked their coverage. At times, I am sure the commentators were frustrated when there were some great fights in the GT classes only for the director to focus on Audi.
The red button idea is a very good one. In time I am sure things will improve, I thought the 'Ultra' motion camera should have been called something else! However, it did provide some stunning footage.
I watched it this year on Eurosport and really liked their coverage. At times, I am sure the commentators were frustrated when there were some great fights in the GT classes only for the director to focus on Audi.
The red button idea is a very good one. In time I am sure things will improve, I thought the 'Ultra' motion camera should have been called something else! However, it did provide some stunning footage.
I think Audi do a fantastic Marketing job. Possibly the best activation of motorsport in sales promotion of any manufacturer.
But it does feel like a sledgehammer to crack a nut. That's not Audi's fault as they have to prepare to beat Toyota - and had to prepare to beat Peugeot too. But it does feel like the Auto Unions v happy amateurs and privateers all over again.
I understand Audi's marketing choice in choosing this category over F1 - where they could've suffered a BMW/Honda/Toyota type of humiliation - but I can't help but feel we are being manipulated. Ten years ago, the Audi presence was turned down to allow Bentley a clean run at victory, then Bentley pulled out and Audi was ramped up again. I hope the same doesn't happen with Audi and Porsche.
I'd like to see either more top level competition, or a cost cap that means the top teams have to operate on an OAK/Rebellion/JRM type of budget. The costs of LMP1 at the top level are more than F1, with much more testing allowed.
But it does feel like a sledgehammer to crack a nut. That's not Audi's fault as they have to prepare to beat Toyota - and had to prepare to beat Peugeot too. But it does feel like the Auto Unions v happy amateurs and privateers all over again.
I understand Audi's marketing choice in choosing this category over F1 - where they could've suffered a BMW/Honda/Toyota type of humiliation - but I can't help but feel we are being manipulated. Ten years ago, the Audi presence was turned down to allow Bentley a clean run at victory, then Bentley pulled out and Audi was ramped up again. I hope the same doesn't happen with Audi and Porsche.
I'd like to see either more top level competition, or a cost cap that means the top teams have to operate on an OAK/Rebellion/JRM type of budget. The costs of LMP1 at the top level are more than F1, with much more testing allowed.
Motorsport has become a multi-level complicated business. It's not even about the manufacturers or teams as much as it is about the financial gain. Look at F1 as it's a prime example. Audi is obviously bringing the funds and coverage to Le Mans and if we consider what's happening to WRC, that is really important. WRC is having trouble bringing in the money and coverage and therefore started falling apart.
I really don't think it's Audi's fault that there hasn't been competition with the exception of Peugeot who for financial reasons have had to drop all their motorsport efforts. Audi uses Le Mans as a platform to engineer new technologies. This in itself demonstrates that winning at any cost is not their main objective, otherwise they would have stuck to petrol originally or stuck to diesel when that proved to be a winning package.
Toyota made and admirable effort, gave Audi a good challenge while they were running and I'm sure will be back next year. Also, in 2014 Porsche is bringing the challenge and we know they don't come unprepared or willing to lose so that year should be huge for Le Mans. Will be amazing to see these two battle it out and if we remember the internal friction a few years back it will be awesome to watch it play out on the track. Hopefully with Porsche coming, Nissan might feel they have another platform to challenge them. They tried so hard for so long with the GT-R.
I read a post commenting on the lack of coverage with GT2 and other classes and I absolutely agree with that. Those are also the cars that people relate to the most. They are the cars that we see on the roads and on some level have an emotional attachment to.
Sometimes, it's a matter of keeping an event alive and floating until it gets another spark of life and we should thank Audi for doing that.
I've never been to Le Mans as I grew up in the States, but I think 2014 will be the year that changes and I'm sure a lot of other people will also be drawn that year.
I really don't think it's Audi's fault that there hasn't been competition with the exception of Peugeot who for financial reasons have had to drop all their motorsport efforts. Audi uses Le Mans as a platform to engineer new technologies. This in itself demonstrates that winning at any cost is not their main objective, otherwise they would have stuck to petrol originally or stuck to diesel when that proved to be a winning package.
Toyota made and admirable effort, gave Audi a good challenge while they were running and I'm sure will be back next year. Also, in 2014 Porsche is bringing the challenge and we know they don't come unprepared or willing to lose so that year should be huge for Le Mans. Will be amazing to see these two battle it out and if we remember the internal friction a few years back it will be awesome to watch it play out on the track. Hopefully with Porsche coming, Nissan might feel they have another platform to challenge them. They tried so hard for so long with the GT-R.
I read a post commenting on the lack of coverage with GT2 and other classes and I absolutely agree with that. Those are also the cars that people relate to the most. They are the cars that we see on the roads and on some level have an emotional attachment to.
Sometimes, it's a matter of keeping an event alive and floating until it gets another spark of life and we should thank Audi for doing that.
I've never been to Le Mans as I grew up in the States, but I think 2014 will be the year that changes and I'm sure a lot of other people will also be drawn that year.
Stuart said:
Outside of this though, you don't detect a great amount of warmth towards them. There's no evidence of crowds of flag waving Audi fans at all.
Well there is when it’s orchestrated by the Audi PR machine. I was standing on the embankment, next to the Audi VIP facility, on the infield by the Dunlop Bridge at the end of the race (to be in position for when the gate is opened for the track invasion). Just after the 4 Audi’s went past in formation to start their last lap, a couple of Audi cronies emerged from the VIP building with armfuls of Audi flags to give out to the punters on the embankment, presumably to get a great publicity shot of the 4 Audi’s going past on their victory lap with a sea of Audi flags waived by the crowd in the background. Of course these were all gobbled up by the punters like piranhas having a feeding frenzy. 
Unfortunately for the Audi cronies, they didn’t realise there is no victory lap at Le Mans when there is a lap or more between the lead cars, the last lap effectively being the victory lap and, the cars are waived straight into parc ferme at the end of the start finish straight after crossing the line. So everyone stood at the Dunlop Chicane, Audi flags at the ready looking nonplussed when no cars emerged. Knowing no cars would be coming I thought this was hilarious.
Even the Audi PR machine gets it wrong sometimes but it also shows how cynical they are about giving the impression they have a huge fan base.
P.S. When offered an Audi flag, I pointed to the Scuderia Ferrari shield on the left breast of the jacket I was wearing whilst shaking my head slowly and giving a wry smile. She smiled back and moved on...
Edited by t1grm on Monday 18th June 14:14
filski666 said:
rtz62 said:
Do you know, I class Le Mans with F1 and WRC; predictable, boring and (generally) one team or driver dominates.
That's why, despite not being a (ho)motorcyclist, I prefer Moto GP - there's always different winners and there's generally a battle for the podium places right up to the chequered flag.
While I agree with you in general....remind me again which F1 driver / team is dominating the championship this year?That's why, despite not being a (ho)motorcyclist, I prefer Moto GP - there's always different winners and there's generally a battle for the podium places right up to the chequered flag.
Have to say, one of the things which *does* bug me, is the take-over of some of the better viewing areas by corporate hostility and the ACO.
There used to be a great viewing area beyond the Dunlop bridge as they went down to the esses, but that area is now where the ACO enclosure is (or was in the past - I wasn't there this year). That and the 'Welcome area' which was by the old ACO clubhouse at the end of the pit lane. And when they put the gravel trap in just before Indianapolis we lost another great viewing spot where you could see the cars flying down from Mulsanne.
And then the huge barriers and screening at the restaurant before the first chicane - first year I went I was stood in a bush right behind the armco, watching the cars whistle by just metres away. Yes, I know that probably wasn't very safe, but boy was it cool !!!
On the plus side, there are now better viewing areas at Tetre Rouge and the s
tty gravel has all gone from the terraces (no more twisted ankles or quagmires when it rains). And the Porsche Curves viewing area is good.filski666 said:
rtz62 said:
Do you know, I class Le Mans with F1 and WRC; predictable, boring and (generally) one team or driver dominates.
That's why, despite not being a (ho)motorcyclist, I prefer Moto GP - there's always different winners and there's generally a battle for the podium places right up to the chequered flag.
While I agree with you in general....remind me again which F1 driver / team is dominating the championship this year?That's why, despite not being a (ho)motorcyclist, I prefer Moto GP - there's always different winners and there's generally a battle for the podium places right up to the chequered flag.
Audi go racing to win just like everyone else. You can't blame Audi for doing a proper job when everyone else doesn't. Money makes the world go round, it's a fact of life.
The main problem with Le Mans and the LMP1 class in particular is that the ACO heavily bias the rules to favor whatever "innovative technology" is being peddled at the time so anyone who wants to run an alternative option has no chance.
They've now allowed diesel engines in LMP2 for next year so I expect that's going to go the same way.
The second problem as people have already alluded to is the coverage. Some more cameras, a better race director and the introduction of a night shift so we aren't left with just CCTV cameras covering the race at night would be great. I have to say though, although I wanted to see the GT-AM battle at the end as well, it's not really fair to ignore the leader as he takes the victory. The winner deserves the camera time.
The main problem with Le Mans and the LMP1 class in particular is that the ACO heavily bias the rules to favor whatever "innovative technology" is being peddled at the time so anyone who wants to run an alternative option has no chance.
They've now allowed diesel engines in LMP2 for next year so I expect that's going to go the same way.
The second problem as people have already alluded to is the coverage. Some more cameras, a better race director and the introduction of a night shift so we aren't left with just CCTV cameras covering the race at night would be great. I have to say though, although I wanted to see the GT-AM battle at the end as well, it's not really fair to ignore the leader as he takes the victory. The winner deserves the camera time.
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