Best 2+2 coupe for around £20k
Discussion
Tuvra said:
Chavved up TT mind
, a well set up TT-RS would probably destroy everything he suggested in every possible way, maybe not the M6 in a straight line but it would certainly keep up with it and then slaughter it when it came to the bends 
I love how car's are instantly better just because of the engine layout then others are instantly marked down because of the badge on the bonnet or the body type
For the record, I'd also say a Golf R is a better drivers car than the XKR, Mustang (
) & probably the CLK. It also wouldn't have the bork factor / running costs of the other cars you suggested.In C70's world I'm guessing a 4.2 XKR is a better drivers car than say a Megane R26R or Integra? I'm done....
20k just gets him a TT RS which is a good car but in standard form would get dusted up by a Focus RS (MK2)/Megane 275, now this doesn't make it a bad car the engine is something else & it's still a decent steer when you throw some money at it (uprated front diff uprated Hadlex control unit coilovers stronger propshaft) then they can be some real fun but I wouldn't say it's better than the cars listed above but it is a fun alternative.
As a sidebar the list in brackets is everything my friend has done to his plus more engine mods, this was done after the Turbo lunched itself (replaced under warranty) as for a lower bork factor he's had his RS a similar amount of time as I've had my CLK & bork list reads like this:
3 Propshafts (the last change was for an uprated one & has been fine)
1 Turbo
2 Front Driveshafts
1 Intercooler
CLK63 Bork List:
As for cross country well he's not got close yet but when his RS3 arrives next week he's got a box of HPA parts which he says should close the gap a bit more.
Also if OP wanted the best drivers hot hatch for 20k he'd be getting himself the Megane (in whichever flavour) as that has beaten all comers for so long all the other manufactures must be breathing a huge sigh of relief they've stopped making it.
The Golf R is decent but having driven a Mustang I found it more fun than the Golf but I think the Golf would be quicker A-B after that I think (although I've never driven the Jag) most of those would start to gap the Golf all things being equal, but isn't it about fun you can't really let loose these days so for me it's more about the car feeling a bit special even at low speed as well as when those little opportunities to exploit the performance (as you exit the roundabout a nice long sweeping bend etc) as well as those full on A/B Road blasts for me this is where the (it's just my personal opinion) hot hatch falls short.
Edited by ZX10R NIN on Monday 3rd October 09:35
Tuvra said:
Chavved up TT mind
, a well set up TT-RS would probably destroy everything he suggested in every possible way, maybe not the M6 in a straight line but it would certainly keep up with it and then slaughter it when it came to the bends I love how car's are instantly better just because of the engine layout then others are instantly marked down because of the badge on the bonnet or the body type
For the record, I'd also say a Golf R is a better drivers car than the XKR, Mustang (
) & probably the CLK. It also wouldn't have the bork factor / running costs of the other cars you suggested.In C70's world I'm guessing a 4.2 XKR is a better drivers car than say a Megane R26R or Integra? I'm done....
And you still try so hard to look clever.If you'd bothered to read the OP, he's not looking for the ultimate "drivers car" (sic) or to "destroy everything".
To save you the mental strain of clicking back...
codieskid said:
I am looking for a 2+2 coupe that will be mainly used by myself but I want to be able to squeeze my 1 year olds car seat in for weekend trips with the family etc. The only other criteria is that it needs to be good to drive and also something nice to look at as that's what coupes are all about.
Buying a TT or a Golf for "weekend trips with the family" and a "1 year olds car seat" is all a bit 'desperately clinging onto my youth'. For £20k, one can do so much better - and I've not even mentioned "good to look at".I can tell you something for free - anything I listed will be more of an event to drive and own than a tarted-up hatch or a TT. And, as the previous poster demonstrated, there's no guarantee that buying a big-boost VAG car will mean less potential for big bills.
If he'd mentioned taking the car on track or "hooning" (cringe), I might have agreed with your suggestions (I'm no badge snob - I own a Peugeot!). But, sadly, I think it's you who is projecting too many of his personal preferences onto your recommendations.
Hi all, OP here
To avoid any conflict and to reiterate my requirements, I am looking for a 2+2 coupe, not hatchback or a saloon. Also I am not going to bash any hot hatches as most are better to drive than the coupes mentioned but hot hatches and coupes/GT's are often chalk and cheese.
For me I want a coupe as much for the looks and the feel good factor I get from them than just the driving capability and I want something that looks great and is half decent to drive. I am not doing track days or looking to set any new lap record at the nurburgring but want something I can enjoy at the weekend at 7/10's of it's performance, that I can squeeze the wife and nipper in and then when I park it up I'll want to give it a second look.
My last car was a 2007 Aston Martin V8 Vantage and while I could have bought a new Audi or VW hatchback for the same money I personally think you can't beat a good looking coupe and the feel good factor and sense of occasion you get from them.
Trev
To avoid any conflict and to reiterate my requirements, I am looking for a 2+2 coupe, not hatchback or a saloon. Also I am not going to bash any hot hatches as most are better to drive than the coupes mentioned but hot hatches and coupes/GT's are often chalk and cheese.
For me I want a coupe as much for the looks and the feel good factor I get from them than just the driving capability and I want something that looks great and is half decent to drive. I am not doing track days or looking to set any new lap record at the nurburgring but want something I can enjoy at the weekend at 7/10's of it's performance, that I can squeeze the wife and nipper in and then when I park it up I'll want to give it a second look.
My last car was a 2007 Aston Martin V8 Vantage and while I could have bought a new Audi or VW hatchback for the same money I personally think you can't beat a good looking coupe and the feel good factor and sense of occasion you get from them.
Trev
ZX10R NIN said:
I have to disagree with you on this the TT RS will not in standard (a Golf R is better standard) form destroy the cars on the list above not because of it's engine layout but because it doesn't handle as well as some of the other cars mentioned here out of the box also OP has 20k to spend on a 2+2 which means he's not looking for a hot hatch.
20k just gets him a TT RS which is a good car but in standard form would get dusted up by a Focus RS (MK2)/Megane 275, now this doesn't make it a bad car the engine is something else & it's still a decent steer when you throw some money at it (uprated front diff uprated Hadlex control unit coilovers stronger propshaft) then they can be some real fun but I wouldn't say it's better than the cars listed above but it is a fun alternative.
As a sidebar the list in brackets is everything my friend has done to his plus more engine mods, this was done after the Turbo lunched itself (replaced under warranty) as for a lower bork factor he's had his RS a similar amount of time as I've had my CLK & bork list reads like this:
3 Propshafts (the last change was for an uprated one & has been fine)
1 Turbo
2 Front Driveshafts
1 Intercooler
CLK63 Bork List:
As for cross country well he's not got close yet but when his RS3 arrives next week he's got a box of HPA parts which he says should close the gap a bit more.
Also if OP wanted the best drivers hot hatch for 20k he'd be getting himself the Megane (in whichever flavour) as that has beaten all comers for so long all the other manufactures must be breathing a huge sigh of relief they've stopped making it.
The Golf R is decent but having driven a Mustang I found it more fun than the Golf but I think the Golf would be quicker A-B after that I think (although I've never driven the Jag) most of those would start to gap the Golf all things being equal, but isn't it about fun you can't really let loose these days so for me it's more about the car feeling a bit special even at low speed as well as when those little opportunities to exploit the performance (as you exit the roundabout a nice long sweeping bend etc) as well as those full on A/B Road blasts for me this is where the (it's just my personal opinion) hot hatch falls short.
I can assure you an Audi TT-RS would not get dusted up by a Focus RS nor a Golf R. I should know, I had a MKII RS and currently have a Golf R 20k just gets him a TT RS which is a good car but in standard form would get dusted up by a Focus RS (MK2)/Megane 275, now this doesn't make it a bad car the engine is something else & it's still a decent steer when you throw some money at it (uprated front diff uprated Hadlex control unit coilovers stronger propshaft) then they can be some real fun but I wouldn't say it's better than the cars listed above but it is a fun alternative.
As a sidebar the list in brackets is everything my friend has done to his plus more engine mods, this was done after the Turbo lunched itself (replaced under warranty) as for a lower bork factor he's had his RS a similar amount of time as I've had my CLK & bork list reads like this:
3 Propshafts (the last change was for an uprated one & has been fine)
1 Turbo
2 Front Driveshafts
1 Intercooler
CLK63 Bork List:
As for cross country well he's not got close yet but when his RS3 arrives next week he's got a box of HPA parts which he says should close the gap a bit more.
Also if OP wanted the best drivers hot hatch for 20k he'd be getting himself the Megane (in whichever flavour) as that has beaten all comers for so long all the other manufactures must be breathing a huge sigh of relief they've stopped making it.
The Golf R is decent but having driven a Mustang I found it more fun than the Golf but I think the Golf would be quicker A-B after that I think (although I've never driven the Jag) most of those would start to gap the Golf all things being equal, but isn't it about fun you can't really let loose these days so for me it's more about the car feeling a bit special even at low speed as well as when those little opportunities to exploit the performance (as you exit the roundabout a nice long sweeping bend etc) as well as those full on A/B Road blasts for me this is where the (it's just my personal opinion) hot hatch falls short.
I never said anything about a CLK bork list, I said the Golf R and TT-RS would be a far better steer. Now the OP has updated what he means by "a good steer", I'll retract that statement.
C70R said:
Buying a TT or a Golf for "weekend trips with the family" and a "1 year olds car seat" is all a bit 'desperately clinging onto my youth'. For £20k, one can do so much better - and I've not even mentioned "good to look at".
I can tell you something for free - anything I listed will be more of an event to drive and own than a tarted-up hatch or a TT. And, as the previous poster demonstrated, there's no guarantee that buying a big-boost VAG car will mean less potential for big bills.
If he'd mentioned taking the car on track or "hooning" (cringe), I might have agreed with your suggestions (I'm no badge snob - I own a Peugeot!). But, sadly, I think it's you who is projecting too many of his personal preferences onto your recommendations.
So the Golf, seats five, massive boot, 40mpg, all the mod cons and is hugely capable is a poor suggestion? Granted it doesn't look very " flash" but other than that I thought it was a decent suggestion.I can tell you something for free - anything I listed will be more of an event to drive and own than a tarted-up hatch or a TT. And, as the previous poster demonstrated, there's no guarantee that buying a big-boost VAG car will mean less potential for big bills.
If he'd mentioned taking the car on track or "hooning" (cringe), I might have agreed with your suggestions (I'm no badge snob - I own a Peugeot!). But, sadly, I think it's you who is projecting too many of his personal preferences onto your recommendations.
Besides, I'd rather get out of a Golf (or a TT) than turn up looking like 300bhp/tonne in a Mustang or look like I've stolen my grandads car in the XKR
Anyway, they wern't my suggestion, I just think your opinions are slightly deluded, you can bet your bottom dollar you haven't driven either to form such a one sided view on them both. My suggestion, OK its not a coupe, but I'm going to throw it in there anyway:-
Edited by Tuvra on Monday 3rd October 12:53
Tuvra said:
Besides, I'd rather get out of a Golf (or a TT) than turn up looking like 300bhp/tonne in a Mustang or look like I've stolen my grandads car in the XKR
it's grand that we're all different - I'd chew my own foot off to be able to enjoy a Mustang/XKR than go for a shopping trolley like a Golf (albeit a powerful and well handling one to be sure)Tuvra said:
ZX10R NIN said:
I have to disagree with you on this the TT RS will not in standard (a Golf R is better standard) form destroy the cars on the list above not because of it's engine layout but because it doesn't handle as well as some of the other cars mentioned here out of the box also OP has 20k to spend on a 2+2 which means he's not looking for a hot hatch.
20k just gets him a TT RS which is a good car but in standard form would get dusted up by a Focus RS (MK2)/Megane 275, now this doesn't make it a bad car the engine is something else & it's still a decent steer when you throw some money at it (uprated front diff uprated Hadlex control unit coilovers stronger propshaft) then they can be some real fun but I wouldn't say it's better than the cars listed above but it is a fun alternative.
As a sidebar the list in brackets is everything my friend has done to his plus more engine mods, this was done after the Turbo lunched itself (replaced under warranty) as for a lower bork factor he's had his RS a similar amount of time as I've had my CLK & bork list reads like this:
3 Propshafts (the last change was for an uprated one & has been fine)
1 Turbo
2 Front Driveshafts
1 Intercooler
CLK63 Bork List:
As for cross country well he's not got close yet but when his RS3 arrives next week he's got a box of HPA parts which he says should close the gap a bit more.
Also if OP wanted the best drivers hot hatch for 20k he'd be getting himself the Megane (in whichever flavour) as that has beaten all comers for so long all the other manufactures must be breathing a huge sigh of relief they've stopped making it.
The Golf R is decent but having driven a Mustang I found it more fun than the Golf but I think the Golf would be quicker A-B after that I think (although I've never driven the Jag) most of those would start to gap the Golf all things being equal, but isn't it about fun you can't really let loose these days so for me it's more about the car feeling a bit special even at low speed as well as when those little opportunities to exploit the performance (as you exit the roundabout a nice long sweeping bend etc) as well as those full on A/B Road blasts for me this is where the (it's just my personal opinion) hot hatch falls short.
I can assure you an Audi TT-RS would not get dusted up by a Focus RS nor a Golf R. I should know, I had a MKII RS and currently have a Golf R 20k just gets him a TT RS which is a good car but in standard form would get dusted up by a Focus RS (MK2)/Megane 275, now this doesn't make it a bad car the engine is something else & it's still a decent steer when you throw some money at it (uprated front diff uprated Hadlex control unit coilovers stronger propshaft) then they can be some real fun but I wouldn't say it's better than the cars listed above but it is a fun alternative.
As a sidebar the list in brackets is everything my friend has done to his plus more engine mods, this was done after the Turbo lunched itself (replaced under warranty) as for a lower bork factor he's had his RS a similar amount of time as I've had my CLK & bork list reads like this:
3 Propshafts (the last change was for an uprated one & has been fine)
1 Turbo
2 Front Driveshafts
1 Intercooler
CLK63 Bork List:
As for cross country well he's not got close yet but when his RS3 arrives next week he's got a box of HPA parts which he says should close the gap a bit more.
Also if OP wanted the best drivers hot hatch for 20k he'd be getting himself the Megane (in whichever flavour) as that has beaten all comers for so long all the other manufactures must be breathing a huge sigh of relief they've stopped making it.
The Golf R is decent but having driven a Mustang I found it more fun than the Golf but I think the Golf would be quicker A-B after that I think (although I've never driven the Jag) most of those would start to gap the Golf all things being equal, but isn't it about fun you can't really let loose these days so for me it's more about the car feeling a bit special even at low speed as well as when those little opportunities to exploit the performance (as you exit the roundabout a nice long sweeping bend etc) as well as those full on A/B Road blasts for me this is where the (it's just my personal opinion) hot hatch falls short.
I never said anything about a CLK bork list, I said the Golf R and TT-RS would be a far better steer. Now the OP has updated what he means by "a good steer", I'll retract that statement.
C70R said:
Buying a TT or a Golf for "weekend trips with the family" and a "1 year olds car seat" is all a bit 'desperately clinging onto my youth'. For £20k, one can do so much better - and I've not even mentioned "good to look at".
I can tell you something for free - anything I listed will be more of an event to drive and own than a tarted-up hatch or a TT. And, as the previous poster demonstrated, there's no guarantee that buying a big-boost VAG car will mean less potential for big bills.
If he'd mentioned taking the car on track or "hooning" (cringe), I might have agreed with your suggestions (I'm no badge snob - I own a Peugeot!). But, sadly, I think it's you who is projecting too many of his personal preferences onto your recommendations.
So the Golf, seats five, massive boot, 40mpg, all the mod cons and is hugely capable is a poor suggestion? Granted it doesn't look very " flash" but other than that I thought it was a decent suggestion.I can tell you something for free - anything I listed will be more of an event to drive and own than a tarted-up hatch or a TT. And, as the previous poster demonstrated, there's no guarantee that buying a big-boost VAG car will mean less potential for big bills.
If he'd mentioned taking the car on track or "hooning" (cringe), I might have agreed with your suggestions (I'm no badge snob - I own a Peugeot!). But, sadly, I think it's you who is projecting too many of his personal preferences onto your recommendations.
Besides, I'd rather get out of a Golf (or a TT) than turn up looking like 300bhp/tonne in a Mustang or look like I've stolen my grandads car in the XKR
Anyway, they wern't my suggestion, I just think your opinions are slightly deluded, you can bet your bottom dollar you haven't driven either to form such a one sided view on them both. My suggestion, OK its not a coupe, but I'm going to throw it in there anyway:-
There really isn't such a thing as a bad car these days the OP needs to get a few test drives in so he can start culling his list of potential rides.
By the way 20k gets you one hell of a Coupe more in the GT fold but a good coupe nonetheless.
CL500
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2016...
CL63
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2016...
ZX10R NIN said:
Jesus that's insane. That would have cost over £100k new. Very temptingZX10R NIN said:
Did you not read that my friend has one & we've swapped on more than a few occasions, also a few of the guys at work have R's (great lease deals) & I've driven those too so my opinion is informed.
So you've driven a friends RS & anothers R and driven them really hard against a TT-RS? RIGHT 
I did 17k miles in a standard RS & currently 23k miles into an R and would still have to strongly disagree that either would come close to a TT-RS in pretty much any performance test you can imagine. For the record, I think the Golf would also be a lot closer to the TT-RS than the Focus, a standard Focus IMO is some way off.
Tuvra said:
So the Golf, seats five, massive boot, 40mpg, all the mod cons and is hugely capable is a poor suggestion? Granted it doesn't look very " flash" but other than that I thought it was a decent suggestion.
Besides, I'd rather get out of a Golf (or a TT) than turn up looking like 300bhp/tonne in a Mustang or look like I've stolen my grandads car in the XKR
Anyway, they wern't my suggestion, I just think your opinions are slightly deluded, you can bet your bottom dollar you haven't driven either to form such a one sided view on them both.
Besides, I'd rather get out of a Golf (or a TT) than turn up looking like 300bhp/tonne in a Mustang or look like I've stolen my grandads car in the XKR
Anyway, they wern't my suggestion, I just think your opinions are slightly deluded, you can bet your bottom dollar you haven't driven either to form such a one sided view on them both.
You can keep on banging away about how your opinion is worth more, or you can listen to what the OP wants. Choose one.
OP - The Jag XKR is a wonderful beast. Comfortable and refined in the way that the Vantage has 'sporty' aspirations that compromise it as a GT, yet incredibly sonorous and capable when you push on. You might well get a couple of years of use out of the back seat, so definitely worth looking at.
However, were I in your shoes, I'd find it hard to avoid the V10 in the M6 (listen to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fCR8hJHUhII), or that monster lump in the AMG CLK63.
Tuvra said:
So you've driven a friends RS & anothers R and driven them really hard against a TT-RS? RIGHT
I did 17k miles in a standard RS & currently 23k miles into an R and would still have to strongly disagree that either would come close to a TT-RS in pretty much any performance test you can imagine. For the record, I think the Golf would also be a lot closer to the TT-RS than the Focus, a standard Focus IMO is some way off.
Again you didn't read it properly I have driven my friends TT RS (which has had the mods listed in the earlier posts carried out) whilst he was driving my CLK63 both were being driven at a lick in which the 63 gapped his TT RS with either of us at the wheel, with the the Golf he couldn't gap the R so I'd say they were even so THAT'S where my opinion comes from.I did 17k miles in a standard RS & currently 23k miles into an R and would still have to strongly disagree that either would come close to a TT-RS in pretty much any performance test you can imagine. For the record, I think the Golf would also be a lot closer to the TT-RS than the Focus, a standard Focus IMO is some way off.
R vs RS (I know it's not a TT RS but the chassis are close enough)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3jWVTKYcP0
I take it you had a MK2 Focus RS? You're entitled to your opinion but the Golf R has lost to the Focus in pretty much every test where they've been pitched against each other & yet both still were found to be not as good as the Megane RS down an A/B Road.
Golf R vs Focus RS
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oklm3mV6ThE
I'm not saying the TT RS can't be fun because it can especially with 500+bhp
But even my mate will admit it doesn't handle as sweetly as a Megane RS etc but it sounds great & makes him smile which is why with the addition of a little one he's bought the RS3 because it may not be the best but it's his idea of fun & who can argue with that.
codieskid said:
ZX10R NIN said:
Jesus that's insane. That would have cost over £100k new. Very temptingHope that helps.
ZX10R NIN said:
codieskid said:
ZX10R NIN said:
Jesus that's insane. That would have cost over £100k new. Very temptingHope that helps.
That's a proper, modern, 4-seat muscle car. Super-impressive!
codieskid said:
Would a C63 amg coupe be worth a look as I've seen a few floating around the £25k mark. While I like the idea of the CLK I think it's looking a bit dated
Only if you own a takeaway restaurant in the North of England and have a chin-strap beard. Competent car, I'm sure - but suffering from a serious image problem, and not all that special.Had this exact conundrum myself last month and I went and bought this :0)
Same budget pretty much the same criteria but I won't do as many miles so fuel economy not so much of an issue. I looked at every single desirable car in that price range and narrowed it down to an XKR or a low mileage Monaro (V8 manual and much less to hurt the wallet when it goes wrong). If an Audi R8 or a DB9 had been a little cheaper I'd probably have had one of those instead of the Jag but at that price the only other cars with the looks/performance/prestige/sense of occasion are the Maseratis and they have a lot more potential pit falls and personally I prefer everything about the Jag, they really are remarkable value for money.
All this talk of hot hatches being better to drive makes me laugh, faster round a circuit maybe or if you want to drive properly flat out somewhere the road is narrow but 90% of the time the Jag would be a much better place to be. I've had loads of hot hatches and extensively driven others and trust me cars like the XKR offer more straight line performance, they look much better , sound much better, the interior and comfort are in a different league - they have a sense of occasion which is why they were £75k new 7 years and not £30k last year.
Same budget pretty much the same criteria but I won't do as many miles so fuel economy not so much of an issue. I looked at every single desirable car in that price range and narrowed it down to an XKR or a low mileage Monaro (V8 manual and much less to hurt the wallet when it goes wrong). If an Audi R8 or a DB9 had been a little cheaper I'd probably have had one of those instead of the Jag but at that price the only other cars with the looks/performance/prestige/sense of occasion are the Maseratis and they have a lot more potential pit falls and personally I prefer everything about the Jag, they really are remarkable value for money.
All this talk of hot hatches being better to drive makes me laugh, faster round a circuit maybe or if you want to drive properly flat out somewhere the road is narrow but 90% of the time the Jag would be a much better place to be. I've had loads of hot hatches and extensively driven others and trust me cars like the XKR offer more straight line performance, they look much better , sound much better, the interior and comfort are in a different league - they have a sense of occasion which is why they were £75k new 7 years and not £30k last year.
Notanotherturbo said:
Snip!
Same budget pretty much the same criteria but I won't do as many miles so fuel economy not so much of an issue. I looked at every single desirable car in that price range and narrowed it down to an XKR or a low mileage Monaro (V8 manual and much less to hurt the wallet when it goes wrong). If an Audi R8 or a DB9 had been a little cheaper I'd probably have had one of those instead of the Jag but at that price the only other cars with the looks/performance/prestige/sense of occasion are the Maseratis and they have a lot more potential pit falls and personally I prefer everything about the Jag, they really are remarkable value for money.
All this talk of hot hatches being better to drive makes me laugh, faster round a circuit maybe or if you want to drive properly flat out somewhere the road is narrow but 90% of the time the Jag would be a much better place to be. I've had loads of hot hatches and extensively driven others and trust me cars like the XKR offer more straight line performance, they look much better , sound much better, the interior and comfort are in a different league - they have a sense of occasion which is why they were £75k new 7 years and not £30k last year.
Stonking XKR. I'm very jealous. A friend brought his 5-litre R along to Le Mans this year, and it got a lot of admiring looks in a sea of exotica. An understated, but undeniable presence - such an occasion to drive, even pottering around town.Same budget pretty much the same criteria but I won't do as many miles so fuel economy not so much of an issue. I looked at every single desirable car in that price range and narrowed it down to an XKR or a low mileage Monaro (V8 manual and much less to hurt the wallet when it goes wrong). If an Audi R8 or a DB9 had been a little cheaper I'd probably have had one of those instead of the Jag but at that price the only other cars with the looks/performance/prestige/sense of occasion are the Maseratis and they have a lot more potential pit falls and personally I prefer everything about the Jag, they really are remarkable value for money.
All this talk of hot hatches being better to drive makes me laugh, faster round a circuit maybe or if you want to drive properly flat out somewhere the road is narrow but 90% of the time the Jag would be a much better place to be. I've had loads of hot hatches and extensively driven others and trust me cars like the XKR offer more straight line performance, they look much better , sound much better, the interior and comfort are in a different league - they have a sense of occasion which is why they were £75k new 7 years and not £30k last year.
Just waiting for Tuvra to come along and call you an old man, and to tell you how his opinion is worth more.
Gassing Station | Car Buying | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff