What does this parking sign say?
Discussion
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.6162254,-0.27475...
Edited by CoolHands on Friday 28th October 00:02
sim72 said:
To me, that says that able-bodied users can park for 1hr30 but have to pay, but blue badge holders can park free for 3 hours between 8.30 and 6.00. It's utterly useless signing though.
I agree and if I was a BB hodler and got fined that would be the reasonign I would sue to argue it - if they have to pay it should say liek it does on the sign above.Kinky said:
The sign does state quite clearly that it's disabled parking only 
So the $1M question ..... which sign overrides which? I'd not want to gamble!
Top sign relates to non-disabled persons, lower sign relates to disabled persons. Only doubt I have is whether disabled need to pay. I am guessing they do. And this is a Council trap. Allegedly.So the $1M question ..... which sign overrides which? I'd not want to gamble!
Cliftonite said:
Top sign relates to non-disabled persons, lower sign relates to disabled persons. Only doubt I have is whether disabled need to pay. I am guessing they do. And this is a Council trap. Allegedly.
Trap? LB Barnet? Perish the thought! 
Blue Badge holders definitely do not need to pay. The Scheme specifically confers exemptions for on-street parking. That's what is was created for!
sim72 said:
To me, that says that able-bodied users can park for 1hr30 but have to pay, but blue badge holders can park free for 3 hours between 8.30 and 6.00. It's utterly useless signing though.
That the way I would interpret it too. With both plates on the same pole in respect of the same bay it's the only thing that makes any sense. However where Local Authorities and outsourced Civil Enforcement Officers are concerned, sense is not a word that comes readily to mind.It's doubly confusing because The Traffic Signs Manual Chapter 3 page 59 pargraph 7.17 suggests that the Diagram 661A sign is normally used to give effect to an order which designates reserved parking places for disabled badge holders only (i.e. the 'only' excludes those without one). The effect of the times incorporated into the design is covered in paragraph 7.19 - https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa...
The signs are conflicting imo, but the only way to clarify the situation is to ask LB Barnet for a copy of the relevant TRO.
As I said earlier it has form - http://www.hamhigh.co.uk/news/politics/golders_gre...
A search of the London Tribunals (ex-PATAS) appeals Register reveals that its track record on signage is less than impressive.
This was the LA remember where residents had to seek a Judicial Review (and won) over its illegal CPZs - http://www.localgov.co.uk/Barnet-loses-judicial-re...
Barnet outsources practically everything to the private sector and is practically a ghost authority. I wouldn't trust it an inch.
CoolHands said:
I must admit I don't read the Highway Code.
Try it some time... https://www.gov.uk/browse/driving/highway-code-roa...It's clear enough.
Hour and a half for anybody, pay at the machine or by SMS.
Three hours for blue badge, no need to pay.
Outside Mon-Sat 8-6.30, no restriction.
I suspect it used to be blue badge only, but has recently been opened up with the payment option, hence the additional sign.
herewego said:
I think the word "only" should be replaced by "free". Then it would be clear. Maybe a local could suggest to LA.
It IS clear.The upper sign applies to everybody. It tells you where to pay.
The lower sign applies to blue badge holders only. There's no mention of payment, therefore it's free of charge.
If it says "free", does it mean free of charge or free of restriction?
TooMany2cvs said:
herewego said:
I think the word "only" should be replaced by "free". Then it would be clear. Maybe a local could suggest to LA.
It IS clear.The upper sign applies to everybody. It tells you where to pay.
The lower sign applies to blue badge holders only. There's no mention of payment, therefore it's free of charge.
If it says "free", does it mean free of charge or free of restriction?
Okay it could say "no charge". Not every disabled person will know that disabled spots in that area are free(sorry carry no charge).herewego said:
TooMany2cvs said:
herewego said:
I think the word "only" should be replaced by "free". Then it would be clear. Maybe a local could suggest to LA.
It IS clear.The upper sign applies to everybody. It tells you where to pay.
The lower sign applies to blue badge holders only. There's no mention of payment, therefore it's free of charge.
If it says "free", does it mean free of charge or free of restriction?
Okay it could say "no charge". Not every disabled person will know that disabled spots in that area are free(sorry carry no charge).If you are able bodied but use your vehicle on a regular basis to assist someone who is disabled, then you can be issued with a blue badge, but it should only be used when assisting the disabled person and not at any other time.
Added to that, I'd be very surprised if any blue badge holders weren't aware that there is no charge for parking in disabled parking bays in that area TBH.
Have you contacted the council for clarification?
Take a couple of photos. Call in to query it, phone, use internet...
Get answer in written form and keep if you are told you can park as per the upper sign.
I suspect the council have used standard signs and not made a new one for that location. Hence possible confusion?
Take a couple of photos. Call in to query it, phone, use internet...
Get answer in written form and keep if you are told you can park as per the upper sign.
I suspect the council have used standard signs and not made a new one for that location. Hence possible confusion?
Cliftonite said:
Top sign relates to non-disabled persons, lower sign relates to disabled persons. Only doubt I have is whether disabled need to pay. I am guessing they do. And this is a Council trap. Allegedly.
That's just not true. If only the lower sign was there would you take it to mean that only disabled people faced any time limit and the non-disabled could park for as long as they like? Hard to tell if it is a trap. Given the cretin level intelligence of whoever dreamt up this combination of signs, a trap seems unlikely.
TooMany2cvs said:
It's clear enough.
Hour and a half for anybody, pay at the machine or by SMS.
Three hours for blue badge, no need to pay.
Outside Mon-Sat 8-6.30, no restriction.
I suspect it used to be blue badge only, but has recently been opened up with the payment option, hence the additional sign.
Although that would seem logical it's not that simple I'm afraid. I'm fairly sure that combination of signs is non-complaint with TSRGD.Hour and a half for anybody, pay at the machine or by SMS.
Three hours for blue badge, no need to pay.
Outside Mon-Sat 8-6.30, no restriction.
I suspect it used to be blue badge only, but has recently been opened up with the payment option, hence the additional sign.
A diagram 661A sign excludes non Blue Badge holders altogether during the hours specified on the plate.
The other sign is in conflict with this and cannot override what the 661A says.
Local Authorities frequently make errors in signage and some are very dilatory in correcting them (even when they have been informed).
LB Barnet is one such. It will quite happily do its own thing in pursuit of income regardless of whether it has breached regulations.
And then fights to continue enforcing penalties until a higher power compels it to back down.
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