Used 4 doors saloon, RWD, manual and affordable?

[Shifter1]

SWoll said:

But why on earth does it matter even if the stereotype is true? If it's the best car available to you that meets your requirements and might actually be available surely you'd have to be a complete idiot to discount it for the reasons given? And if you got one perhaps you could help turn the tide?

Up to you of course, just seems very silly to me.

IF it was the perfect car for me. But it's not. Like I said I never cared or liked them independently of the reputation and I specially despise the interiors, especially the E39. So I wouldn't be happy driving it.

[Shifter1]

Mike335i said:

That e39 interior is really nice, much nicer than current Mercedes! Mind you, that Omega interior is also much nicer than the merc, even factoring in unflattering images.

Yes, THAT e39 interior is above average. Because SWoll's post is biased and agenda filling. But if you buy an e39 today your interior won't look like that 99% of the time.

SWoll, I'm sure you could have found a better W210 interior as well as hundreds of worse e39 ones. You basically took the best e39 interior you could find in a Google image search and the worst W210 one to make your point. Much of an agenda there?

First of all the interior you posted is a facelift e39 interior. Facelift cars came out in 2001, which means only the last 2 years of production will have that interior. The first 6 years will look different. Furthermore, you took a M5 interior. LOL. So why not take a late Brabus or AMG W210 interior as well?

Going by SWoll's standard of "fair comparison" we can look at this:

e39 interior the huge majority of them will have. Meaning pre facelift non M5 ones:



Mercedes W210 upscale interior:




Design taste is in the eye of the beholder. But it's hard to say the e39 interior above is nicer than the W210 interiors above.

Design wise I prefer the W210 anyhow. But let's at least be fair when posting pictures. It's insulting to people's intelligence to think you are the smarter one of the bunch SWoll, and nobody would notice what you did there. Or do you think you are the only one who can use Google???

[Shifter1]

Mike335i said:

As I said, factoring flattering images in still leaves me favouring the BMW. I searched myself for a comparable W210 to that M5 and there aren't really any that stack up.

Yes. It's in the eye of the beholder. I much prefer the Mercedes. Understated, classy, doesn't try hard. If I want something with more panache I would not mess with a German car. Germans can't do that well. I would just go for Italian.

But my point was the attempt of overstating the BMW by pitching the best picture of an e39 interior which absolutely doesn't represent the majority of e39 interiors out there against a bad picture of a W210 interior.

[Shifter1]

SWoll said:

Just to clarify my last 4 cars have included 2 x E Class and 2 x 5 Series. Rather than an agenda I speak from having spent many of thousands of miles driving both models and living with them day to day, and if you forget about all of this image and stereotype nonsense the 5 Series is both the nicer place to spend time and the better car to drive IMHO.

I have no vested interest in either marque, I just judge cars on how they perform based on my needs. As an example my wife currently runs the new C Class as we were both unimpressed with the 3 series when we test drove one and I've got an A6 Avant on order as my next company car as fancied a change and it ticked all the important boxes for me.

I discount the Omega as my FIL ran a V6 model for about 5 years and as far as I'm concerned it doesn't bear comparison to the E or 5. Awful, rattly, wallowy load of junk.

I don't agree at all with your opinion of the Omega. If it's a 4 cylinders diesel I would pass. But a 3.0 or 3.2 V6 (it's a petro) in Elite trim is very comfortable, very well put together with a full leather interior and all the amenities like dual front airbags, side airbags, TC, EPC, ABS and the full package. I would take it any day over a rusty and problematic W210 or an e39.

As a matter of fact I know somebody who runs an Omega Elite and it has done close to 300k on the clock and still goes fine and looks in great nick. Of course, he takes care of the car and doesn't wait till problems aggravate to address them.

If one is the type who likes to just put petro in the tank and drive, he is better off with a Toyota because a BMW or Mercedes won't do either. Unless of course it's a W126, W123, W124 etc. Then he has a chance.

And I must say if you indeed have no vested interest in either marque, you sure did a very bad job showing that because you post looked biased and horribly skewed towards BMW and still does actually.

[Shifter1]

OverSteery said:

Indeed Audi, Mercedes, Volvo were too dull to even consider. 5 series was the obvious, and so I tried it (540 then M5). I had 4 BMws over quite a few years, and I guess I kept coming back, because wanting manual, RWD, they aren't many other options.

Holden/HSV was less obvious choice and much more fun. 2 so far and Love them

What you are describing is basically the "curse" of pretty much every German car. If you want real thrills, as in riding a wild horse, a German car is not going to give you that. Especially a mass produced one such as BMW, Mercedes, VW, Audi etc.

Because German philosophy is perfection and perfection kills character. They never achieve perfection in the full package as their design will never match the Italians. But mechanically they come pretty close to perfection and this makes their cars boring.

If you truly want thrills with a German car you have to try to buy a tuner car like a Brabus or something. Then maybe, depending on your demands. AMG today is not enough. Their cars are not as wild as when they were independent and made the bonkers AMG Hammer for example. BMW M is still boring and German. I mean, when even a 911 is boring compared to others of the same class you know the "problem" is a general one.

Driving a 911 compared to a Lotus, Corvette or Alfa Romeo is boring. Same with a R8. Some people like well behaved cars and then German cars are for them. If you say you like Holden better it tells me you like wild cars. German cars are not it.;)

[Shifter1]

shtu said:

Well, there you go then. Omega. Now go buy one and stop bothering us with this unicorn hunt.

The difficult part is to find a 3.0 manual one. If I did I wouldn't be here.

[Shifter1]

_Neal_ said:

Maybe not, but this thread is about basically the opposite of wild cars, isn't it? You're hunting for a 2-3k Euro family saloon, and the front/only runner is also, ironically, German.

My reply concerning German cars has nothing to do with my car search itself. I was just replying to OverSteery's post about Audi, Mercedes and BMWs being dull. It's an off topic matter.

Besides I never said that just because it needs to be a 4 door saloon it couldn't be a wild one.

[Shifter1]

Hugo a Gogo said:

a big 4 door saloon doesn't compare well to a Lotus either

except maybe the Lotus Omega/Carlton

Again, I was not comparing any 4 door saloon with a Lotus. I was comparing a Porsche 911.

And I don't need my 4 door saloon to compare well with a Lotus. I think you may have misread my reply to OverSteery.

[Shifter1]

white_goodman said:

To be fair, I don't have a problem with the interior on the W210 E-Class and to be honest, I would prefer a late W210 to a similarly aged 5-Series but I would want an E320 petrol/E320CDI Avantgarde with auto and leather. If you can find a rust-free example, it's probably a better car than an early W211. It surprised me but I did a quick search and you can still get manual E-Classes right up until the previous generation but normally "taxi" spec i.e. 4-pot diesels with cloth interiors.

In principle, I also much prefer any W210 over the equivalent 5 series. The huge challenge is finding a rust free W210 and then, even bigger challenge is keeping it rust free. This is the whole problem we have, even before starting to discuss it's nearly impossible to find them with the stronger engines and a manual gearbox. Diesels 4 pots there are plenty as you say.

white_goodman said:

If you're relaxing the rules slightly to encompass AWD, then I also really like the C5 Audi A6. It's a great looking car with a lovely interior and proper 4WD rather than an Haldex system. This one is not LHD obviously but they come from a time before Audi became the new BMW and from my observations seem to suffer less from rust issues than BMWs and Mercedes of that time.

I'm not really relaxing the rules just yet. I was just raising the hypothesis.
But like I said when I brought AWD up, I would have to exclude Audi and VW, because I already have a AWD VW. Don't need another one. Also, I'm not sure what you mean by the C5 being from before Audi became the new BMW, but I hate Audis from that generation and older. They only started looking alright from C6 on IMO.

white_goodman said:

Possibly a little smaller but a Volvo S60R may also meet all your criteria with 4WD.

Too small, yeah.

white_goodman said:

To be honest, I disagree with you on Jags being too conservatively styled. The S-Type is a bit of an acquired taste but the XJ is a thing of beauty compared to the conservative Germans and I think a few of them were manual.

The S-type is just too odd and retro. But I think I mentioned the X300 is not that bad. But it's small as well and as hard to find with manual gearbox as with the Omega too.

And what German cars are conservatively styled? Unless you mean the newer Bentleys and Rolls Royces?

white_goodman said:

If you relax your rules a little further, a FWD Alfa 166, Saab 9-5, Volvo S80 or even a mk4 Ford Mondeo (they're huge inside) would also be excellent choices.

I'm not doing that, sorry. No FWD.

white_goodman said:

Obviously, if your budget was higher, a Vauxhall VXR8 would be your perfect car but to be frank, I don't really see your average driver of a 15 year old Opel/Vauxhall Omega being any more savoury than a 5-Series driver, it's just that there are less of them around!

I'm not sure about that. The Omega was never seen as cool or as a performance saloon. So their drivers don't have a lot of reason to behave like BMW drivers, if that is what you meant.

As for the VXR8, I don't know. It was never my cup of tea. Too hairy chested I guess. I don't know. They are also very cheaply finished inside. The Omega seems better finished if compared to the Commodores of the same vintage. Not to mention with a much better looking interior as well. The Holden interiors are just meh.

Edited by Shifter1 on Tuesday 20th December 23:21

[Shifter1]

e21Mark said:

As a self confessed BMW fanboi and asshat I would suggest a 5 series of whatever vintage. I like e34 touring myself but the e39 is an excellent car. You could always a) ignore the stereotypes and/or remove the badges? In truth, you're discounting an excellent car for no good reason.

To be honest, if I would absolutely be forced to get a BMW, the only 5 series I could picture buying is an e34. It's the best looking 5 series and the fat boats that have come after it don't hold a candle to it's classic design. As another advantage, there are basically no asshats around here driving an e34. Because at this point it's almost a classic and "normally" people who drive classic cars have some class. So that doesn't fit the asshats. Asshats normally get the newest "cool" car they can afford because they think newer is better and older sucks. I'm sure if you go more east there are a lot more e34s and other older BMWs of that vintage. But here most cars are new. Most common older BMW you see is e39. You barely see any e30 anymore either.

The problem with the e34 though is that being that old it lacks heavily on the safety features, which for a daily family car I absolutely need. It never got things like side airbags let alone traction control or stability control etc. I'm not even sure it ever had driver and passenger airbags.

[Shifter1]

_Neal_ said:

Fair enough.

So which "wild" 4 door saloon fits your requirements and budget?

I never said it must be a wild one. Just that I don't mid if it would be.


But to be honest, the more I look at the situation, the more I realize that it's not only me being picky. We are in a sad state of affairs for car enthusiasts.

Even if I had a sizeable budget to buy new, there really aren't many RWD manual 4 door saloon with bigger engines to choose from anymore. It's just sad.

[Shifter1]

s m said:

Side airbags correct, later E34s could have ASC+T plus front airbags on both sides

Irrelevant though as too old/expensive

I guess it must be a very primitive version of it then?

And around here an e34 is not too expensive. It's actually right within the budget. I have even seen M5s for just a few hundred more, although that was probably ran to the ground.

As for being too old, the age limit is there exactly because of the safety features. I feel like MY 2000 was when most cars really started loading up on the safety features. But if the e39 has traction and stability plus front airbags on both sides, at least in theory it has all the safety features the Omega has besides side airbags.