Would you still buy a Volkswagen?...
Discussion
It's because no one really cares about the emissions scandals apart from boffins and the sort of labour voters that protest against trump and Brexit.
I know VW lied, but the car emitted nox before, just in smaller amounts than they said, and who had ever bought a car based on the nox it admits, all people care about is either, the image, the price, the perception, the niceness of the car or the co2 if they are a company car driver.
It wouldn't put me off one bit, I'm currently concidering a Leon FR TDI DSG. A gtd golf or maybe a a3 saloon TFSI.
They make lovely cars, and that's all that matters to me really, don't really care about MPG, but doing 25k a year in a petrol is wearing thin.
Although the fall out does mean VW have scrapped their planned new 1.5 tdi and will be only going small petrol powered cars for their smaller modes in the range, with a massive push towards hybrid, but don't forget how polluting the stuff they put in batteries is.
I know VW lied, but the car emitted nox before, just in smaller amounts than they said, and who had ever bought a car based on the nox it admits, all people care about is either, the image, the price, the perception, the niceness of the car or the co2 if they are a company car driver.
It wouldn't put me off one bit, I'm currently concidering a Leon FR TDI DSG. A gtd golf or maybe a a3 saloon TFSI.
They make lovely cars, and that's all that matters to me really, don't really care about MPG, but doing 25k a year in a petrol is wearing thin.
Although the fall out does mean VW have scrapped their planned new 1.5 tdi and will be only going small petrol powered cars for their smaller modes in the range, with a massive push towards hybrid, but don't forget how polluting the stuff they put in batteries is.
I don't think the scandal puts me off per se, but I can't think of a car that VW make today that I'd prefer over something else from its rivals.
To be fair though I've still got a 10 year old sharan on the fleet that soldiers on bravely between maintenance bills. When looking I'd have happily taken a galaxy instead, but this one was available a few streets away.
To be fair though I've still got a 10 year old sharan on the fleet that soldiers on bravely between maintenance bills. When looking I'd have happily taken a galaxy instead, but this one was available a few streets away.
To be honest, I think diesel is dying regardless of its true merits (or lack of them). Hybrids do a lot better in the real world than many people expect and diesel will be increasingly taxed, because of political pressure and public perception as much as because of any evidence. You'll be lucky to get within a few miles of any major city with a diesel car in a few years. I might be shot down for this, but I think hybrid will be the way to go- we just need to hope that they can be made a little more fun.
(Edited for predictivetoast arias text errors.)
(Edited for predictive
Edited by blearyeyedboy on Wednesday 22 February 04:51
ZX10R NIN said:
People will still buy a VAG product the emissions makes no difference at the end of the day people may pretend to be outraged but they really don't care that's why VAG sales are up 17% in the US with Porsche Cayenne/Q7 diesels being a big part of that.
Yep, your right.In fact I wonder how many people were cautious about taking their cars in for the fix worried it would loose power and mpg.
VW made quite a noise about not just resetting the ecu to run in low emmissions mode, but adjusting them to give the same power, mpg and the emmissions promised (though I can't quite see how that would be possible)
Thing is, years ago I heard rumours of cheating the emissions, from running with over inflated tryes, disconnected alternators, special low friction treatments and lean set engines that would burn valves. It always seemed obvious to me that they would program the ecu to recognise the test procedure and adjust to maximise the result.
blearyeyedboy said:
To be honest, I think diesel is doing regardless of its true merits (or lack of them). Hybrid do a lot better in the real world than many people expect and diesel will be increasingly taxed, because of political pursue and public perception as much as because of any evidence. You'll be lucky to get within a few miles of any major city with a diesel car in a few years. I might be shot down for this, but I think hybrid will be the way to go- we just need to hope that they can be made a little more fun.
Not sure about hybrids. Great for urban driving obviously but on the motorway from personal experience, a Prius was inferior to a low capacity turbo petrol (Golf 1.2 TFSI) and a diesel (Focus 1.5 TDCI). You're lugging around a lot of extra weight in batteries at the end of the day, which is dead weight unless you're running on electric power.I see the appeal on high performance cars. Torque fill and zero emissions urban driving but for someone pounding up and down the motorways, I'm not so sure. You usually get a CVT box too, which kind of kills the fun. Can a conventional auto or manual even work with an electric motor?
ZX10R NIN said:
People will still buy a VAG product the emissions makes no difference at the end of the day people may pretend to be outraged but they really don't care that's why VAG sales are up 17% in the US with Porsche Cayenne/Q7 diesels being a big part of that.
Where are you getting that "fact" from? VW/Audi/Porsche have not been allowed to sell diesel vehicles in USA or Canada since September 2015. Look on any USA/Canadian manufacturer websites and you will see no mention of diesel-powered vehicles. That's pretty much going to have killed any expansion of market share surely?What I'm not sure if everyone is quite understanding is they didn't just massage the figures to look good in tests. CO2 emissions don't even come into it. Anyway, CO2 emissions are roughly proportional to fuel economy, so even if you understate your emissions, ultimately you'll use more fuel, which you pay tax on so you'll get taxed on it anyway. Yes, CO2 contributes to the greenhouse effect and we should try to keep emissions down but it could well be that CO2 levels in the atmosphere have actually reduced compared to 100 years ago and in terms of health, CO2 is pretty harmless.
The government were stupid because they were focussed on CO2 emissions (fairly harmless), which massively favour diesel cars as they burn lean and encouraged everyone to buy diesel as a result. What they should have looked at were NOX emsissions, which cause acid rain, harm natural habitats and cause respiratory problems and maybe even cancers. Due to significantly higher temperatures and pressures in diesel engines, less CO2 but significantly more NOX is produced. NOX emissions are poisonous and limits are put in place to protect human health. In reality, the VW diesels tested were 40 times over the legal NOX limit!
I suffered badly with asthma as a kid but it went away in my teenage years and into adulthood. It has recenly come back in my 30s however and although I can't blame it on higher levels of NOX in the air for sure and specifically VW diesels, it certainly could be a factor. What VW did doesn't sit right with me and I think they were more than just a little bit naughty and although I admire some of their vehicles (Golf GTI, several Audis), I'm still not sure whether morally I should buy their vehicles, even the petrol ones.
ZX10R NIN said:
People will still buy a VAG product the emissions makes no difference at the end of the day people may pretend to be outraged but they really don't care that's why VAG sales are up 17% in the US with Porsche Cayenne/Q7 diesels being a big part of that.
Only thing why sales are up is because VAG offers huge discounts at the moment. Even in finland you could get a golf 1.2 tsi with good-ish specs under 20t€. They did even offer a winter pack (winter tires, webasto, metallic color) for 490€ and give a 1000€ gift card for supermarket. Crazy. Comparable Auris was like 6-8t€ more. These kind of offers are everywhere and vag products are quite cheap to buy at the moment. Tbh, going up 17% in usa is not a big thing. Their sales was going down for years and sales are small in general. Like under 500 000 sold cars in year or so.
white_goodman said:
I suffered badly with asthma as a kid but it went away in my teenage years and into adulthood. It has recenly come back in my 30s however and although I can't blame it on higher levels of NOX in the air for sure and specifically VW diesels, it certainly could be a factor. What VW did doesn't sit right with me and I think they were more than just a little bit naughty and although I admire some of their vehicles (Golf GTI, several Audis), I'm still not sure whether morally I should buy their vehicles, even the petrol ones.
Are NOx levels higher now than they were 15-20 years ago?white_goodman said:
...or an Audi, Seat or Skoda for that matter?
It has been nearly 18 months now since the VW emissions scandal, many law suits are still pending and in other world markets such as North America, sales are on their arse, as VW/Audi are forbidden to sell new diesel cars (their USP in the market) and are sitting on thousands of unsold new cars.
However, here in Europe, it appears to be business as usual and in the UK, Golf, Polo and A3 still seem to be selling really well (I honestly don't know what the proportion of petrol to diesel sales currently is).
In the UK, at least, VW were a chunk down last year and SEAT struggled too. Maybe as both brands have a high diesel proportion? Audi and Skoda didn't seem affected.It has been nearly 18 months now since the VW emissions scandal, many law suits are still pending and in other world markets such as North America, sales are on their arse, as VW/Audi are forbidden to sell new diesel cars (their USP in the market) and are sitting on thousands of unsold new cars.
However, here in Europe, it appears to be business as usual and in the UK, Golf, Polo and A3 still seem to be selling really well (I honestly don't know what the proportion of petrol to diesel sales currently is).
I did see a VW dealer salesman comment that they're selling a much higher percentage of petrol's now.
We've never really been a "VW family" including on mine and my wife's side. Pretty well our first foray was a mk6 Golf and it did feel a cut above rivals. Based on satisfaction with Golf we also got a 2015 (so mk1) Tiguan about 18mths ago. However I've seen lots of comments that mk7 Golf and mk2 Tiguan are not in the same build-quality league as previous models.
k yourself from VWDebaser said:
Are NOx levels higher now than they were 15-20 years ago?
That's a very good question and I honestly don't know. It's a mystery to me why my asthma has relapsed but the number of diesel vehicles on UK roads has increased in that time, so it's a plausible theory and I would expect ambient levels of NOX, especially in cities to be higher as a result. It also causes smog, so in areas that get smog if it's a worse problem than it was before then that would be one indication.If you're buying (or leasing) whilst you have a warranty then fine, it's the people buying at 3 years old or so that are the recipients of some huge bills just waiting to happen on some of the most poorly designed engines and emissions equipment of the last few years, both petrol and diesel. Apart from this I think they are probably the some of the nicest and best put together mainstream cars on the market.
chapscrap said:
If you're buying (or leasing) whilst you have a warranty then fine, it's the people buying at 3 years old or so that are the recipients of some huge bills just waiting to happen on some of the most poorly designed engines and emissions equipment of the last few years, both petrol and diesel.
We have one of the last of the old Tiguans so it's EU6 diesel and the emissions equipment is terrifying. I'm pissed at the deisel-gate thing as the news came out literally a few days after we got our car. This has messed up my estimate of the car's value at 3yrs, yet even if VW is forced to pay out we won't get anything as supposedly EU6 cars are unaffected.Even if I keep it until it's five yrs old, I'd be bonkers to run without warrranty but the emissions stuff coverage is iffy. And the car would still be depreciating rapidly.
white_goodman said:
Not sure about hybrids. Great for urban driving obviously but on the motorway from personal experience, a Prius was inferior to a low capacity turbo petrol (Golf 1.2 TFSI) and a diesel (Focus 1.5 TDCI). You're lugging around a lot of extra weight in batteries at the end of the day, which is dead weight unless you're running on electric power.
I see the appeal on high performance cars. Torque fill and zero emissions urban driving but for someone pounding up and down the motorways, I'm not so sure. You usually get a CVT box too, which kind of kills the fun. Can a conventional auto or manual even work with an electric motor?
I agree that a Prius is less fun than a Self Assessment Tax Return, but I'm not so sure about the "dead weight" arguement. Weren't we told repeatedly that the McLaren P1 would be slower and less efficient without its electric bits?I see the appeal on high performance cars. Torque fill and zero emissions urban driving but for someone pounding up and down the motorways, I'm not so sure. You usually get a CVT box too, which kind of kills the fun. Can a conventional auto or manual even work with an electric motor?
My petrol Corolla (1999 bug eyed one) was a similar source of driving joy to a Prius (i.e., it wasn't!). I think that Toyota just don't make fun cars.
While I know it's not a shining example of driver involvement, if Honda can get a manual gearbox into their CR-Z, other people should be able to do it too.
Sheepshanks said:
I don't know if the Audi system is basically the same as VW's, but the latest Discover nav in VWs is really poor - the system in my 12yr old Merc is better, particularly the way it handles traffic information.
I've not had personal experience with it, but the Sync 2 Nav system in my Focus was £250, and its spot on, I can't fathom why any Satnav system should cost any moreGassing Station | Car Buying | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff