EVs... no one wants them!

[trumpton7291]

Apparently nobody wants EVs in Europe either. Could the thread title be more accurate...?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/04/18/ft...

Electric car sales plummeted across Europe last month as demand dried up despite the EU’s push to ban petrol and diesel vehicles by the middle of the next decade.

Sales of battery-powered cars dropped by 11.3pc as demand in Germany, Europe’s largest economy, plunged by 28.9pc, according to the European Automobile Manufacturers’ Association (ACEA).

Only 13pc of new registrations were electric, down from 13.9pc in March last year and down from 14.6pc for all of 2023.

Sales of electric cars have stalled despite Europe’s plans to ban the sale of new internal combustion engine cars by 2035.

[Unreal]

trumpton7291 said:

Apparently nobody wants EVs in Europe either. Could the thread title be more accurate...?

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2024/04/18/ft...

Electric car sales plummeted across Europe last month as demand dried up despite the EU’s push to ban petrol and diesel vehicles by the middle of the next decade.

Sales of battery-powered cars dropped by 11.3pc as demand in Germany, Europe’s largest economy, plunged by 28.9pc, according to the European Automobile Manufacturers’ Association (ACEA).

Only 13pc of new registrations were electric, down from 13.9pc in March last year and down from 14.6pc for all of 2023.

Sales of electric cars have stalled despite Europe’s plans to ban the sale of new internal combustion engine cars by 2035.

I don't see why anyone should be surprised why at the moment the majority of the public can't or won't buy a new EV. I wonder if governments really do live in ivory towers and attend too many high level strategy meetings to have the slightest clue about the real world.

[irc]

otolith said:

Getting used car buyers onto new EVs would be a far more radical step than what we are doing now, which is incentivising those people who do buy new cars to choose electric rather than petrol or diesel ones. We're making the transition through natural wastage.

If the loathing of giving something to those people is too great, we should stop subsidising new EVs and simply tax new ICEs off the market. Happy with that?

It isn't an either or. Why not stop subsidising EVs which are no longer a new immature product? Let them stand or fall on their own merits.

[djc206]

Unreal said:

djc206 said:

Ankh87 said:

I've mentioned this before about affordable and reliable EVs for the masses. The people driving around in the most polluting cars are mostly on the poorer end. They can't afford a £20k car let alone a £25k car that's small. This is why manufacturers need to look at family size EV hatchbacks to be sub £20k if anything, sub £15k.

Why would manufacturers need to look at that? The people you mention aren’t buying brand new ICE now so why would we task manufacturers with making brand new BEV’s they can afford? They always have and always will be shopping in the second hand car market.

Besides which is a family sized hatch back for sub £20k still a thing? A bog standard Astra is £27k these days.

Maybe they should be made to look at it? Governments have often influenced what car manufacturers make. Maybe there's a much greater case for using taxpayer's money to get poorer people into cheap, new, efficient cars than subsidising the richer element of society who can afford expensive cars regardless?

They have influenced what they make but they can’t make them make vehicles to sell at a 5 figure loss and why would they? It seems like a bizarre approach to a problem which doesn’t really exist. Why not continue with the status quo which is well off people buy shiny new things which depreciate and then people with less money and/or a bit smarter pick up those already depreciated but perfectly good assets at a low price a couple of years later? Why reinvent the wheel?

Incentivising people who already pay a lot of tax to modify their behaviour through a small tax break which will then trickle down to the rest of society seems perfectly fair and reasonable to me. Carrot not stick.

[Ankh87]

Unreal said:

djc206 said:

Ankh87 said:

I've mentioned this before about affordable and reliable EVs for the masses. The people driving around in the most polluting cars are mostly on the poorer end. They can't afford a £20k car let alone a £25k car that's small. This is why manufacturers need to look at family size EV hatchbacks to be sub £20k if anything, sub £15k.

Why would manufacturers need to look at that? The people you mention aren’t buying brand new ICE now so why would we task manufacturers with making brand new BEV’s they can afford? They always have and always will be shopping in the second hand car market.

Besides which is a family sized hatch back for sub £20k still a thing? A bog standard Astra is £27k these days.

Maybe they should be made to look at it? Governments have often influenced what car manufacturers make. Maybe there's a much greater case for using taxpayer's money to get poorer people into cheap, new, efficient cars than subsidising the richer element of society who can afford expensive cars regardless?

If the Government force manufacturers to make cars more affordable, then did something similar as the scrappage scheme but say made it £5k instead of £2k. Those £15k cars because very affordable to more people as say £10k finance is probably their fuel bill on a diesel or petrol car for the month. £10k is usually around £150 HP and £15k is around £250 HP.

[romft123]

Ankh87 said:

tamore said:

Unreal said:

I was thinking about the issues around EV uptake in terms of transitioning people from diesel and to a lesser extent petrol to EV.

I wonder if one way to help this would be to shift all the benefits and incentives to the opposite end of the market with generous scrappage schemes and discounts for people with cheap old ICE cars. Those company directors don't need the money and aren't as numerous as the poorer members of society. Those poorer people get into newer, more reliable and environmentally friendly vehicles which are much cheaper to run and rich people can afford the EVs without subsidies anyway. Couple that with building the EV equivalent of the people's car and job done.

need more affordable models before you can do that. RRP, not the 100 or so heavily discounted models on AT. before someone pipes up.

they are coming in the next 12 months. hope the article i saw yesterday about tesla pressing on with the model 2 at $25k is right.

I've mentioned this before about affordable and reliable EVs for the masses. The people driving around in the most polluting cars are mostly on the poorer end. They can't afford a £20k car let alone a £25k car that's small. This is why manufacturers need to look at family size EV hatchbacks to be sub £20k if anything, sub £15k.

I read dacias are very very popular...wonder why!

[Ankh87]

romft123 said:

I read dacias are very very popular...wonder why!

Same reason why Kia and Hyundai populated the market. Cheap, affordable motor vehicles.

[Unreal]

djc206 said:

Unreal said:

djc206 said:

Ankh87 said:

I've mentioned this before about affordable and reliable EVs for the masses. The people driving around in the most polluting cars are mostly on the poorer end. They can't afford a £20k car let alone a £25k car that's small. This is why manufacturers need to look at family size EV hatchbacks to be sub £20k if anything, sub £15k.

Why would manufacturers need to look at that? The people you mention aren’t buying brand new ICE now so why would we task manufacturers with making brand new BEV’s they can afford? They always have and always will be shopping in the second hand car market.

Besides which is a family sized hatch back for sub £20k still a thing? A bog standard Astra is £27k these days.

Maybe they should be made to look at it? Governments have often influenced what car manufacturers make. Maybe there's a much greater case for using taxpayer's money to get poorer people into cheap, new, efficient cars than subsidising the richer element of society who can afford expensive cars regardless?

They have influenced what they make but they can’t make them make vehicles to sell at a 5 figure loss and why would they? It seems like a bizarre approach to a problem which doesn’t really exist. Why not continue with the status quo which is well off people buy shiny new things which depreciate and then people with less money and/or a bit smarter pick up those already depreciated but perfectly good assets at a low price a couple of years later? Why reinvent the wheel?

Incentivising people who already pay a lot of tax to modify their behaviour through a small tax break which will then trickle down to the rest of society seems perfectly fair and reasonable to me. Carrot not stick.

Trickle down has its fans and its detractors.

I'm suggesting it might be the best way to achieve the stated objective and it might be socially beneficial and responsible to try a different approach. I'm not interested in arguing about which approach is right. I look at what people say they are trying to achieve in the timescale and context in which they are trying to achieve it and from where I sit, different approaches may be needed or the objective and timescales may need to change.

[confused_buyer]

It is a bit of a circular argument with used. A lot of dealers won't touch EVs because there isn't the third party trade knowledge in place to fix and support them. Basically if a dealer buys in a car with a fault they can't get it fixed through sources they normally use so it is main dealer only which can be very horrendous. Same if the buyer comes back with a post sale issue. If you were a dealer what would you do with a £6k Zoe which needs a £11k fix?

Because of the low trade demand prices are slumping (forget the guides, they are fantasy) which also has the effect that dealers who *do* know how to fix them are wary of buying too many in and seeing £3k knocked off in one month's depreciation before they can get them on sale.

Of course there are some used dealers making money out of EVs but, as yet, there aren't many.

[otolith]

irc said:

It isn't an either or. Why not stop subsidising EVs which are no longer a new immature product? Let them stand or fall on their own merits.

Because buyers don't care about the key merit which is the reason for the policy. It's like saying "why force people to recycle their rubbish, let doing it stand or fall on its own merits" - people are selfish.

[LowTread]

Fine with me. Happy that EVs aren't popular. It pushes back any chance of them applying VED to elec.

Did my commute yesterday. 160 mile round trip in the Model 3.

Left on 80% and drove it hard from the start. Giving it full beans out of corners and ripping up the next straight. Sitting at 80+ on the A1, etc. Plenty of burst of acceleration.

Basically being a bit of a dick

Got home on 7%. So pretty rubbish efficiency of around 3.2 miles/kwh.

Charged back up to 80% overnight for £4!!!

Hoping this keeps going up until retirement in 10-13 yrs time. That'd do me just fine thanks.

[Unreal]

LowTread said:

Fine with me. Happy that EVs aren't popular. It pushes back any chance of them applying VED to elec.

Did my commute yesterday. 160 mile round trip in the Model 3.

Left on 80% and drove it hard from the start. Giving it full beans out of corners and ripping up the next straight. Sitting at 80+ on the A1, etc. Plenty of burst of acceleration.

Basically being a bit of a dick

Got home on 7%. So pretty rubbish efficiency of around 3.2 miles/kwh.

Charged back up to 80% overnight for £4!!!

Hoping this keeps going up until retirement in 10-13 yrs time. That'd do me just fine thanks.

What's the total monthly cost of the car?

[LowTread]

Unreal said:

LowTread said:

Fine with me. Happy that EVs aren't popular. It pushes back any chance of them applying VED to elec.

Did my commute yesterday. 160 mile round trip in the Model 3.

Left on 80% and drove it hard from the start. Giving it full beans out of corners and ripping up the next straight. Sitting at 80+ on the A1, etc. Plenty of burst of acceleration.

Basically being a bit of a dick

Got home on 7%. So pretty rubbish efficiency of around 3.2 miles/kwh.

Charged back up to 80% overnight for £4!!!

Hoping this keeps going up until retirement in 10-13 yrs time. That'd do me just fine thanks.

What's the total monthly cost of the car?

I bought it for £19k from 50% sale of old car. 50% cash on a 0% CC.

Paying £250/m over about 3 yrs.

Drivetrain warranty to 2027
Insurance about £50/m
VED zero
Servicing zero
Tyres. Needs fronts soon. Done 28k miles on those so far.

[LowTread]

Find me another 450bhp car with 3yr+ drivetrain warranty that costs 2.5p/mile in fuel that i can pay 300/month to buy, tax, service and insure, that'll i'll own outright in 3yrs

[T_S_M]

LowTread said:

Unreal said:

LowTread said:

Fine with me. Happy that EVs aren't popular. It pushes back any chance of them applying VED to elec.

Did my commute yesterday. 160 mile round trip in the Model 3.

Left on 80% and drove it hard from the start. Giving it full beans out of corners and ripping up the next straight. Sitting at 80+ on the A1, etc. Plenty of burst of acceleration.

Basically being a bit of a dick

Got home on 7%. So pretty rubbish efficiency of around 3.2 miles/kwh.

Charged back up to 80% overnight for £4!!!

Hoping this keeps going up until retirement in 10-13 yrs time. That'd do me just fine thanks.

What's the total monthly cost of the car?

I bought it from 50% trade in. 50% cash on a 0% CC.

Paying £250/m over about 3 yrs.

Drivetrain warranty to 2027
Insurance about £50/m
VED zero
Servicing zero
Tyres. Needs fronts soon. Done 28k miles on those so far.

And I wonder how much an equivalent size/age/spec/mileage BMW 3-series or Audi A4 would cost? I bet it's not cheaper. Compare apples to apples. No point comparing the overall running costs of a 2-year old Model 3 to a 15-year old Fiesta after all...

Reports in the news today that petrol prices are set to go over 150p a litre again soon. I wonder if this may influence peoples decision between ICE/EV's?

[Hustle_]

This was surely always going to happen. People with the money and / or inclination to buy an electric car will, at a certain point, have bought an electric car. Increasingly the remaining people who haven't replaced their ICE or hybrid car with an EV are going to be the people who don't have the money and / or inclination to do so. I guess the rate of uptake will reduce somewhat.

[_Hoppers]

LowTread said:

So pretty rubbish efficiency of around 3.2 miles/kwh.

Yesterday I was trying to work out the potential fuel savings by going to a Model 3. How many miles/kwh do you reckon is achievable from 'normal' driving?

[romft123]

And still we get folks here saying over and over....I dont want an EV. errrr we all get it.

[Downward]

I wonder though although sales of new EV’s are down how many folks who maybe leased a brand new EV have either
A. Got a new car on lease and what time.
B. Gone back to a used ICE
C. Bought a used EV

[Downward]

romft123 said:

Ankh87 said:

tamore said:

Unreal said:

I was thinking about the issues around EV uptake in terms of transitioning people from diesel and to a lesser extent petrol to EV.

I wonder if one way to help this would be to shift all the benefits and incentives to the opposite end of the market with generous scrappage schemes and discounts for people with cheap old ICE cars. Those company directors don't need the money and aren't as numerous as the poorer members of society. Those poorer people get into newer, more reliable and environmentally friendly vehicles which are much cheaper to run and rich people can afford the EVs without subsidies anyway. Couple that with building the EV equivalent of the people's car and job done.

need more affordable models before you can do that. RRP, not the 100 or so heavily discounted models on AT. before someone pipes up.

they are coming in the next 12 months. hope the article i saw yesterday about tesla pressing on with the model 2 at $25k is right.

I've mentioned this before about affordable and reliable EVs for the masses. The people driving around in the most polluting cars are mostly on the poorer end. They can't afford a £20k car let alone a £25k car that's small. This is why manufacturers need to look at family size EV hatchbacks to be sub £20k if anything, sub £15k.

I read dacias are very very popular...wonder why!

Not as popular as the A3, BMW 1 series or the Golf though..