EVs... no one wants them!

[confused_buyer]

Toyota, as a truly global car maker (I can't think of a single part of the world you don't see loads of Toyotas) take a global view. Many parts of the world are not even talking about a mandatory move towards EVs let alone implementing it.

[vladcjelli]

Green Hammer said:

Most of the world does not have wealthy taxpayers (soon to be ex wealthy) that can be sucked dry by funnelling their heard earned into various carbon reduction schemes. Schemes that drive corporate and investor profits at the expense of ordinary citizens. Like a reverse Robin Hood!

Which ICE manufacturers are a corporate version of Robin Hood and aren’t driven by corporate and investor profits?

[CivicDuties]

Amazing how these brand new accounts keep popping up, posting bullshine essays and diatribes on why EVs are the End of the World in this thread, because it isn't in NP&E.

It's almost as if there's a concerted, co-ordinated campaign of misinformation going on.

[Dave200]

CivicDuties said:

Amazing how these brand new accounts keep popping up, posting bullshine essays and diatribes on why EVs are the End of the World in this thread, because it isn't in NP&E.

It's almost as if there's a concerted, co-ordinated campaign of misinformation going on.

More like one slightly obsessed weirdo who keeps getting banned under various pseudonyms.

[Frimley111R]

otolith said:

Green Hammer said:

Wasn't it the head of Toyota (the worlds largest car maker) who said that EV's were not suited to many markets and would only ever represent 30% or so of the global market? So quite why the manufacturers would want to ditch 70% of their future market is quite a stretch of the imagination don't you think? But please feel free to share what you know about the global car market that the head of Toyota doesn't.

Company on the back foot with electric cars in talking up ICE future shock.

Behave yourself. They were the only sensible ones who realised that EVs are only part of the answer. It has been mind-blowing stupidity that forced EVs on markets/consumers that didn't want them and then even more mind-blowing stupidity from car manufacturers not to get together and tell governments that they're utterly delusional.

If I was Toyota, I'd be laughing my socks off at all my competitors going fully EV when a huge swathe of consumers don't want them yet.

China are pushing them because they monopolise the EV materials and have ultra-cheap labour but even they are struggling now with masses of cars stuck at our ports, and, no doubt many others.

EVs are brilliant in some circumstances but in many, they are just a complete no-no.

[otolith]

Green Hammer said:

Sure, but perhaps share with us your experience within the industry, and why it is you believe that your opinion and knowledge of the global market, trumps that of the head of the worlds largest car manufacturer?

My knowledge of the industry in this respect amounts to observing that what Toyoda is saying does not align with the statements or strategy of the rest of the industry. My knowledge of industry in general includes being able to spot someone talking up their own book.

[otolith]

Frimley111R said:

If I was Toyota, I'd be laughing my socks off at all my competitors going fully EV when a huge swathe of consumers don't want them yet.

If the main basis of the shift to EV was consumers deciding that they would really prefer an electric car to a petrol one for their own personal reasons, I would agree with you. Decarbonisation of private transport is not led by consumer demand.

[Chucky-egg]

CivicDuties said:

Amazing how these brand new accounts keep popping up, posting bullshine essays and diatribes on why EVs are the End of the World in this thread, because it isn't in NP&E.

It's almost as if there's a concerted, co-ordinated campaign of misinformation going on.

A bus driver had a medical episode at a station near me a couple of days ago and flattened several shelters with the bus. The day after I saw people commenting that it ‘apparently was an electric bus that exploded and took out the shelters with the blast radius’. They weren’t joking either. Bullshine is everywhere.

[Ankh87]

I've mentioned it before about what Toyota have been saying. We will see in the next 5 years if Mr Toyota is right because if the UK is to stay on track, then by 2030 we should be nearly there with charging points, cheap EVs and better range (so no range anxiety).

What people don't seem to understand is that these last few steps can take a long time. We've advanced so much with battery technology in such a short time, that these final few parts are much more difficult to do. Sort of like filling a glass of water to the rim without it spilling. First part is quick but as you get closer to the end, you slow down as the limit is nearly there.

[GT9]

Green Hammer said:

GT9 said:

Propping up legacy manufacturers by allowing them to continue producing ICEs diverts their focus from investing in the catch-up they desperately need to compete with Chinese EVs.
That road just delays the inevitable and seals it for sure.
A bunch of old-school manufacturers all competing with each other trying to sell new ICEs to a dwindling global market were the cost of new ICE ownership is rapidly increasing.
Sounds like fun.
Forcing them to sink or swim now is the only way they get to survive long term.

Wasn't it the head of Toyota (the worlds largest car maker) who said that EV's were not suited to many markets and would only ever represent 30% or so of the global market? So quite why the manufacturers would want to ditch 70% of their future market is quite a stretch of the imagination don't you think? But please feel free to share what you know about the global car market that the head of Toyota doesn't.

Still, if we here in Europe are determined to push forward on our current trajectory, then with their cheap labour, cheap energy from burning coal, and their control of the majority of the worlds materials required to manufacture EV's and battery technologies, plus their utter dominance of the solar panel market, then there will only be one winner, and that is China.

Mr Toyoda is no longer CEO. He had a vision based on hydrogen which I’m sure you know all about. Whilst I have a great deal of respect for him, the vision has failed, and it failed because he let his heart overrule his head. We’ve got several threads, going back a decade, running into hundreds of pages each discussing that vision and what went wrong.
Including the latest hydrogen thread which I’m sure you are aware of.

Anyway, I really wouldn’t hang your hat on what the outgoing management at Toyota has to say, especially in what applies to other manufacturers.

Listen to what the new CEO says and doesn’t say. He had to tread carefully around the failed hydrogen vision and their new found focus on EV. He cannot however say anything that looks like a loss of face for Mr Toyoda.

Yes they can probably survive by supplying into the least progressive markets. What do you think is going to happen if another dozen large manufacturers try doing the same? That market is a tiny fraction of global new car sales, it cannot sustain everyone, not by a long shot.

We cannot unlearn what the last ten or so years have taught us about decarbonisation for cars. That knowledge is with us forever. Today’s EVs are averaging about 20-25 tons lifetime footprint. By 2035 this is very likely to be at 10-15 tons. ICE will sit at 50 tons. These are not minor differences, they are unavoidably large and impossible to ignore for any western policy maker.

Yes you and I can dispute the numbers, but by and large, they are now accepted in industry and at government level amongst thousands if not tens of thousands of decision makers in government and at the manufacturers.

The sentiments and standing in the way of progress towards electrification that we are seeing from a (generally) aging population in the UK will die as that population dies out. Where would that leave us as a nation long term if we let our hearts rule over our heads like Mr Toyoda?

[Dave200]

Chucky-egg said:

CivicDuties said:

Amazing how these brand new accounts keep popping up, posting bullshine essays and diatribes on why EVs are the End of the World in this thread, because it isn't in NP&E.

It's almost as if there's a concerted, co-ordinated campaign of misinformation going on.

A bus driver had a medical episode at a station near me a couple of days ago and flattened several shelters with the bus. The day after I saw people commenting that it ‘apparently was an electric bus that exploded and took out the shelters with the blast radius’. They weren’t joking either. Bullshine is everywhere.

They will be the same people who were putting photos on Facebook of 5G masts being erected during COVID.

[T_S_M]

Dave200 said:

Chucky-egg said:

CivicDuties said:

Amazing how these brand new accounts keep popping up, posting bullshine essays and diatribes on why EVs are the End of the World in this thread, because it isn't in NP&E.

It's almost as if there's a concerted, co-ordinated campaign of misinformation going on.

A bus driver had a medical episode at a station near me a couple of days ago and flattened several shelters with the bus. The day after I saw people commenting that it ‘apparently was an electric bus that exploded and took out the shelters with the blast radius’. They weren’t joking either. Bullshine is everywhere.

They will be the same people who were putting photos on Facebook of 5G masts being erected during COVID.

I had a few messages backwards and forwards with Jonny Smith after his KIA EV9 video went up. It was around how militant and aggressive some people are when it comes to anti-EV stuff.

He said he'd had people message him and physically threaten him if he kept posting EV related content.

You only need to spend 5 minutes on social media reading the comments relating to EV's. It's wild just how mad some people can get about how a car is propelled.

[Dave200]

T_S_M said:

Dave200 said:

Chucky-egg said:

CivicDuties said:

Amazing how these brand new accounts keep popping up, posting bullshine essays and diatribes on why EVs are the End of the World in this thread, because it isn't in NP&E.

It's almost as if there's a concerted, co-ordinated campaign of misinformation going on.

A bus driver had a medical episode at a station near me a couple of days ago and flattened several shelters with the bus. The day after I saw people commenting that it ‘apparently was an electric bus that exploded and took out the shelters with the blast radius’. They weren’t joking either. Bullshine is everywhere.

They will be the same people who were putting photos on Facebook of 5G masts being erected during COVID.

I had a few messages backwards and forwards with Jonny Smith after his KIA EV9 video went up. It was around how militant and aggressive some people are when it comes to anti-EV stuff.

He said he'd had people message him and physically threaten him if he kept posting EV related content.

You only need to spend 5 minutes on social media reading the comments relating to EV's. It's wild just how mad some people can get about how a car is propelled.

It's the antiestablishment fear stuff. There's a tiny but vocal minority who turn anything that gets asked of them by government into a huge issue, and links it all back to some sort of global conspiracy to something something something. It's the same people every time. Usually older, usually less well educated, usually with a bit more spare time on their hands. And they rage impotently against the machine through Twitter and Facebook.

[Unreal]

I've heard all the reasons why hydrogen won't work. Water powered would probably blow some minds.

As a happy couldn't care less person up to the point it inconveniences me, I still found this interesting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nBHGm-J-bc

[otolith]

Unreal said:

I've heard all the reasons why hydrogen won't work. Water powered would probably blow some minds.

As a happy couldn't care less person up to the point it inconveniences me, I still found this interesting:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nBHGm-J-bc

See also

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJjKwSF9gT8

[Frimley111R]

Ankh87 said:

I've mentioned it before about what Toyota have been saying. We will see in the next 5 years if Mr Toyota is right because if the UK is to stay on track, then by 2030 we should be nearly there with charging points, cheap EVs and better range (so no range anxiety).

What people don't seem to understand is that these last few steps can take a long time. We've advanced so much with battery technology in such a short time, that these final few parts are much more difficult to do. Sort of like filling a glass of water to the rim without it spilling. First part is quick but as you get closer to the end, you slow down as the limit is nearly there.

Globally the electrical infrastructure varies in quality massively. Governments have the right idea but that is a world away from reality on the ground.

Battery tech has not changed much at all. I'm not sure why people think it has. Motors and BMS have improved a lot but the basics of a battery are unchanged for 50 years or more. New battery tech, if it ever arrives, could help lighten car weight and reduce the impact of mining for materials but cars will still consume HUGE amounts of power across each country. Thankfully the slow/slowing adoption of EVs will give them decades to achieve this.

I am interested to see what happens when manufacturers tell governments that people don't want EVs in the numbers the government expects and they can't accept penalties from them without going out of business. The first government to drop the stupid 2035 thing will get a barrage of environmentalists and media scumbags whining about a massive U-turn, environmental commitment etc. I'll get my popcorn...

[braddo]

Frimley111R said:

Globally the electrical infrastructure varies in quality massively. Governments have the right idea but that is a world away from reality on the ground.

Battery tech has not changed much at all. I'm not sure why people think it has. Motors and BMS have improved a lot but the basics of a battery are unchanged for 50 years or more. New battery tech, if it ever arrives, could help lighten car weight and reduce the impact of mining for materials but cars will still consume HUGE amounts of power across each country. Thankfully the slow/slowing adoption of EVs will give them decades to achieve this.

I am interested to see what happens when manufacturers tell governments that people don't want EVs in the numbers the government expects and they can't accept penalties from them without going out of business. The first government to drop the stupid 2035 thing will get a barrage of environmentalists and media scumbags whining about a massive U-turn, environmental commitment etc. I'll get my popcorn...

Read GT9's post above.

Your comments make you sound really old. Time to accept reality that EVs are here to stay as the mainstream means of propulsion for cars.

[otolith]

Frimley111R said:

Battery tech has not changed much at all.

Google "battery energy density over time"

[Dave200]

otolith said:

Frimley111R said:

Battery tech has not changed much at all.

Google "battery energy density over time"

I stopped reading there. It's so odd how people who clearly don't understand the subject matter feel so confident to share robust opinions. It's almost like an inversely proportional relationship.

[Ankh87]

Frimley111R said:

Globally the electrical infrastructure varies in quality massively. Governments have the right idea but that is a world away from reality on the ground.

Battery tech has not changed much at all. I'm not sure why people think it has. Motors and BMS have improved a lot but the basics of a battery are unchanged for 50 years or more. New battery tech, if it ever arrives, could help lighten car weight and reduce the impact of mining for materials but cars will still consume HUGE amounts of power across each country. Thankfully the slow/slowing adoption of EVs will give them decades to achieve this.

I am interested to see what happens when manufacturers tell governments that people don't want EVs in the numbers the government expects and they can't accept penalties from them without going out of business. The first government to drop the stupid 2035 thing will get a barrage of environmentalists and media scumbags whining about a massive U-turn, environmental commitment etc. I'll get my popcorn...

Batteries have changed over the last decade so not sure where you are coming from here.

I'm no pro or con EV person but I can still see how far they've come along. I'm not sold on the idea that BEVs will be all that and I certainly don't like what the Government are doing. There's always a hidden agenda and so I'm not convinced. If the Government wants to make a change to help save the world then there's other things that they could be doing but that would mean they'd not get certain financial gains.

You'd think there would be a bigger push to try get people to own and maintain a car for longer. Rather than go down the route of treating a car like a disposable white goods device. Maybe put a limit on how many cars can be sold a year or something. I've seen and heard so many people sell their car as it nears 90-100k miles just because of that. Car works but they just no longer want it due to its miles on the clock, when it's going to be much cheaper to keep running than buying another 3 year old car and run it for 5/6 years (including financing it or paying out in cash). Maybe it's just me and I'll happily just keep a car running as long as it can.


I think what it is going to come down to is some other type of fuel, along with an electric powered motor. Unless BEVs can charge up just as fast as putting fuel in and do the miles. Before people harp on about home chargers, this isn't an option for everyone clearly, so having something similar to what is in place is a must. I've been up North recently and the area I were in had zero off street parking, that's 1000's of houses with cars outside, on the street with nowhere to have a charger installed. Their front door was on the path, no garden or anything.