EVs... no one wants them!
Discussion
740EVTORQUES said:
As people move out of ICE vehicles, restrictions and taxes on their continual use will surely rise. How many cities will prohibit their use for example?
As such, the pool of people willing to own even interesting legacy petrol cars will shrink and so will the values.
While a Ferrari might still find enough buyers, I suspect many other decently interesting cars will fall by the wayside
I don't think I'll be without an ICE car in my lifetime. I'm 55As such, the pool of people willing to own even interesting legacy petrol cars will shrink and so will the values.
While a Ferrari might still find enough buyers, I suspect many other decently interesting cars will fall by the wayside
_Hoppers said:
Assuming you get 4m/kwh out of the Tesla and 30mpg from the ST, the ST would cost around £6k extra in fuel alone over 3 years, assuming 10k miles per year. You'll need to add servicing costs to the ST ownership too.
Honestly, who cares? It’s 2k per year. Just buy what you like and enjoy it. Cheap electricity is a miserable reason to buy a car.soxboy said:
otolith said:
Yes, you also need to account for somewhere in the region of 20% of households not having a car, and the extent to which they are more or less likely to be the same households which don't have anywhere to charge one.
Unless the sector of ‘my car is essential but I can’t charge it anywhere’ are likely to swing the outcome of a political party (of any colour) getting into power then nobody is going to give two hoots about them.It still smacks of who gives a stuff about poor people, but local knowledge says there is a not insignificant % of households in very nice apartments who fall into that category. Then there are those who are just about managing but aspirationally would like to move into car ownership to ease their daily life and open up other opportunities to advance.
Frankly the snotty attitudes sometimes shown on here disgust me.
KingGary said:
_Hoppers said:
Assuming you get 4m/kwh out of the Tesla and 30mpg from the ST, the ST would cost around £6k extra in fuel alone over 3 years, assuming 10k miles per year. You'll need to add servicing costs to the ST ownership too.
Honestly, who cares? It’s 2k per year. Just buy what you like and enjoy it. Cheap electricity is a miserable reason to buy a car.Oliver Hardy said:
Surprised 50% have off road parking.
Figures I have seen it is way more than 50% nationally. My county is nearer 75%.I can’t see “people power” overriding all the political parties desires to phase out ICE. The people most likely to protest hate them already. The opportunity to rid cities of cars will be too great for some councils and will just pay lip service to charging concerns.
Ankh87 said:
Dave200 said:
Haven't we done to this to death? Didn't you bring this exact point up a dozen or so pages ago? More than 50% of Joe Public have private off-street parking where they could install an EV charger.
Haven't the exact same points in this entire thread been brought up over and over again? Maybe it's time to close this thread then?50% have off-street parking, great. What about the rest though? Should we just not give a care about those? Is it, I'm alright Jack? I guess though if 50% are fine then that's all what matters then.
.
Ankh87 said:
I know. It cost my mate £10 for 100 miles in his EV car which worked out more than my ICE. This is why something has to change.
Like the maths, you mean?According to https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/fuel-watch/, it's currently 150ppL (Petrol) and 158ppL (Diesel), but to simplify things, £10 for 100 miles (10p per mile)...
150pL/£10 = 6.67L of fuel, or 1.47 UK gallons. So to to match 10p/mile in an ICE petrol, you'd need 68 mpg (100 miles/1.47 gallons).
158pL/£10 = 6.32L of fuel, or 1.39 UK gallons. So to to match 10p/mile in an ICE diesel, you'd need 72 mpg (100 miles/1.47 gallons).
Enormous bulls
t aside, let's assume an optimistic 50mpg - that's 2 gallons to get 100 miles. 2 * 4.54 = 9.08 litres, so to match 10p per mile, you'd have to get your fuel at 110.13p per litre. Hows 2003 these days?Ankh87 said:
People won't buy an EV if it's going to cost just as much as an ICE
Well they should, because anyone who's spent any meaningful time using one will know that an electric motor is far superior to an ICE in all but novelty factors (fewer components, practically silent, instant power, high efficiency, almost no servicing required etc.). The only real reason to prefer an ICE (aside from the temporary cultural concern of fuelling) is for "engine go brum brum" aspectconfused_buyer said:
andy43 said:
My guess is fewer and fewer people will stick with legacy brands. There are a heck of a lot of MGs on the road - super cheap transport - that’s all most buyers are after. Whether there’s the spares support and dealer network to keep these Chinese brands like Ora and BodgeYourDrive going is another matter…
The current 1st year / 3000 miles depreciation on a GWM Ora 3 is over 50% against list.That's over £1300 a month or over £8 a mile.
But to be fair there are similar "bargains" on Nissan Leafs at the moment.
Ankh87 said:
I know. It cost my mate £10 for 100 miles in his EV car which worked out more than my ICE.
Just to put in some perspective, it costs my OH about £6 for 100 miles charging at home, but about £20 at a BP Pulse or similar.Compared to petrol, that's about 120mpg for the home charge, but about 33mpg on a public charger.
cj2013 said:
Ankh87 said:
I know. It cost my mate £10 for 100 miles in his EV car which worked out more than my ICE. This is why something has to change.
Like the maths, you mean?According to https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/fuel-watch/, it's currently 150ppL (Petrol) and 158ppL (Diesel), but to simplify things, £10 for 100 miles (10p per mile)...
150pL/£10 = 6.67L of fuel, or 1.47 UK gallons. So to to match 10p/mile in an ICE petrol, you'd need 68 mpg (100 miles/1.47 gallons).
158pL/£10 = 6.32L of fuel, or 1.39 UK gallons. So to to match 10p/mile in an ICE diesel, you'd need 72 mpg (100 miles/1.47 gallons).
Enormous bulls
t aside, let's assume an optimistic 50mpg - that's 2 gallons to get 100 miles. 2 * 4.54 = 9.08 litres, so to match 10p per mile, you'd have to get your fuel at 110.13p per litre. Hows 2003 these days?Ankh87 said:
People won't buy an EV if it's going to cost just as much as an ICE
Well they should, because anyone who's spent any meaningful time using one will know that an electric motor is far superior to an ICE in all but novelty factors (fewer components, practically silent, instant power, high efficiency, almost no servicing required etc.). The only real reason to prefer an ICE (aside from the temporary cultural concern of fuelling) is for "engine go brum brum" aspectwhat about battery component supply have this been solved?
Edited by Oliver Hardy on Thursday 25th April 19:38
Oliver Hardy said:
Does the extra cost of buying an electric car not come into it and how long do batteries last? I have a 12 year old car and a 25 year old car both going strong, will the batteries still be going strong after 25 years? Usually the reply to this is batteries will last forever, but if this is true, why do phone batteries not last 20 years
what about battery component supply have this been solved?
Extra cost of buying an EV - well it did a few years ago, but things have balanced out,what about battery component supply have this been solved?
Edited by Oliver Hardy on Thursday 25th April 19:38
Batteries don't last for ever, and fixing them isn't cheap or easy - yet.
M4cruiser said:
confused_buyer said:
andy43 said:
My guess is fewer and fewer people will stick with legacy brands. There are a heck of a lot of MGs on the road - super cheap transport - that’s all most buyers are after. Whether there’s the spares support and dealer network to keep these Chinese brands like Ora and BodgeYourDrive going is another matter…
The current 1st year / 3000 miles depreciation on a GWM Ora 3 is over 50% against list.That's over £1300 a month or over £8 a mile.
But to be fair there are similar "bargains" on Nissan Leafs at the moment.
Oliver Hardy said:
Does the extra cost of buying an electric car not come into it and how long do batteries last? I have a 12 year old car and a 25 year old car both going strong, will the batteries still be going strong after 25 years?
We can start off by asking if. the engines are like trigger's broom or not? Usually, after 12 years, an engine will have gone through various timing apparatus, filters, lubricants, sensors, plugs etc. Compare that to a 25 year old one and it's maybe double, unless you happen to have one of the unicorn engines (that only exist in arguments) that hasn't needed any maintenance ever. Biggest issue being that old 'bulletproof' engines like that, say a toyota diesel like in a Hilux, have tolerances a london estate agent would hire out, and thus cost a small fortune to fuel instead.
A BEV could potentially pay for a whole battery refurb/replacement in savings by the time a person got to 12-24 years of ownership.
[quote] Usually the reply to this is batteries will last forever, but if this is true, why do phone batteries not last 20 years
Secondly, it is about battery management and composition. A lithium-ion battery is limited to a number of cycles, and usages with low expected lifecycles aren't designed with that in mind, and so will degrade quicker as they are cycled quicker. The Leaf/Zoe are like that.
I've previously had a Lexus RX400h with a 15/16 year old hybrid battery that had a near 100% health to it because the usage was such that the battery wasn't regularly discharged to a low rate. This is one of the key reasons why people would generally keep an EV battery between the 20-80% range - to reduce degradation.
When people talk about ICEs, the concept of an engine keeping 100% of the BHP it left the factory with after 10 years is considered remarkable, so a BEV losing 10% of battery in that time shouldn't be seen as a travesty. It's not like it's unusable, and we shouldn't use the crappy Renault BEVs with 40 miles range as some awful example, because they barely cracked 100 miles in real life when new anyway, with their inflated WLTP
M4cruiser said:
Hmmm, not that super-cheap then. AutoTrader seems to support your figures, there are 2 on there, 2023 models, small mileage, and listing at around £21K when a new one is £32K.
But to be fair there are similar "bargains" on Nissan Leafs at the moment.
There are some on there for £17-18k. Id suggest a trade price for one is £13-14k if you are lucky based on retail asking prices. These list for £32k upwards new.But to be fair there are similar "bargains" on Nissan Leafs at the moment.
Sheepshanks said:
10p per mile in an ICE vehicle is pretty good going - over 60MPG at current prices.
However your EV charging cost doesn't sound right - that works out at around 30p/kWh, which is normal domestic rate. Rapid public charing could be 3x that, so it would have cost your mate £30 for 100 miles.
He was using a public charger. Hence why it cost him so much. My ICE doing the same journey was a little less than £10, think it was like £9.92. Was all motorway for us both and we both filled up before we left. So Tesco for us both before getting straight onto the motorway.However your EV charging cost doesn't sound right - that works out at around 30p/kWh, which is normal domestic rate. Rapid public charing could be 3x that, so it would have cost your mate £30 for 100 miles.
People might say bs but my diesel is very economical, especially sat at 70mph with cruise control, in free flowing traffic. My car sits at 1850-2000rpm at 70mph and it easily gets 60mpg when just cruising, if not more.
I assume because my mates EV has a top speed of 95mph, that is probably why he got rubbish range on cost. He also had to use a public charger, which has no regulation price as you all know.
It cost him £10 and I put on £10 diesel which topped up my tank. So did basic maths as I topped up again, it came to £9.92 at the time. It were at that point as well 146.9p for Diesel. So cheaper than now.
Edited by Ankh87 on Thursday 25th April 21:21
Edited by Ankh87 on Thursday 25th April 21:23
cj2013 said:
Well they should, because anyone who's spent any meaningful time using one will know that an electric motor is far superior to an ICE in all but novelty factors (fewer components, practically silent, instant power, high efficiency, almost no servicing required etc.). The only real reason to prefer an ICE (aside from the temporary cultural concern of fuelling) is for "engine go brum brum" aspect
I think both have their place, both have pros and cons.The average user doesn’t care about the power plant. When diesel was cheaper to tax and fuel people bought diesels. Now people are buying petrols again.
EV market share has stalled because most people don’t see the value of an EV.
I’m reality the driving experience isn’t improved to the point where they’ll pay a premium.
The answer is clearly much cheaper EVs.
cj2013 said:
Well they should, because anyone who's spent any meaningful time using one will know that an electric motor is far superior to an ICE in all but novelty factors (fewer components, practically silent, instant power, high efficiency, almost no servicing required etc.). The only real reason to prefer an ICE (aside from the temporary cultural concern of fuelling) is for "engine go brum brum" aspect
For many the “engine go brum brum” has been a differentiating aspect of ICE for decades for which people will pay a premium for a characterful, aurally pleasing engine over other perceived duller ICE offerings. For Pistonheads that might seem important.survivalist said:
The answer is clearly much cheaper EVs.
Not sure it is - EVs are stupidly cheap now, outside of built-to-order. You can easily buy an EV cheaper used like-for-like than a non-EV, and you can quite easily (at the mo) get a pre-reg hatch-sized EV (Corsa/Leaf etc.) for £17k or less.People are, in general, completely stupid and acquire their opinions and thoughts second-hand, via politicians/celebs/social media. As one example, I spoke to some today who had never touched a Tesla in real life, but were strongly regarding how bad the built quality is; I questioned it, and they didn't really know why they had that opinion other than "that's what they'd heard" kind of anecdote.
If the same scrutiny was applied to ICE that is applied to EVs, barely anyone would own a car. TBH, almost all of the practical arguments against EVs have disappeared, only to be replaced with exaggerated or mythical ones.
The only ones that remain are around the public charging infrastructure, which is ironically self-resolving because if less people buy EVs, the availability for those who do is improved. Of course the answer is to get better & more chargers, but the current government seem hell-bent on completing the bingo-card of 'how to ruin a country', and have no such interest in renewables.
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