EVs... no one wants them!
Discussion
740EVTORQUES said:
As people move out of ICE vehicles, restrictions and taxes on their continual use will surely rise. How many cities will prohibit their use for example?
As such, the pool of people willing to own even interesting legacy petrol cars will shrink and so will the values.
While a Ferrari might still find enough buyers, I suspect many other decently interesting cars will fall by the wayside
100% nail on headAs such, the pool of people willing to own even interesting legacy petrol cars will shrink and so will the values.
While a Ferrari might still find enough buyers, I suspect many other decently interesting cars will fall by the wayside
Working in the industry the customer demand has clearly fallen off a cliff aside from BIK & SS buyers. The usage cost are now marginal for anyone on lower mileages if where a cheap overnight charging deal didn't really work. If you have to rely on public charging it's borderline v8 running costs. Hybrid is where the demand currently is for private buyers. Cheaper cars are needed and cheap used only gets you into low range cars, which frankly are a pain for anyone in anything but the ideal issue scenario. Imho only the few real 300 mile range plus cars are the only really practical ones but that's 50k Territory.
WLTP really is not fit for purpose on ev, if it was a financial product it'd be pulled up by the FCA for miss selling!
WLTP really is not fit for purpose on ev, if it was a financial product it'd be pulled up by the FCA for miss selling!
Tony33 said:
or many the “engine go brum brum” has been a differentiating aspect of ICE for decades for which people will pay a premium for a characterful, aurally pleasing engine over other perceived duller ICE offerings. For Pistonheads that might seem important.
Well yes, when it was one of the only differentiating factors.Fact of the matter is, people also used to spend absolute fortunes on tuning and trying to eek out an age old propulsion design so that it would deliver smooth and consistent power. Now, you've got Chinese-built MG family hatchbacks that will decimate the last generation of supercars, all for a smidge more cash than a factory Ford Focus. It's never been cheaper, or more practical, to go faster.
For Pistonheads, that might also seem important.
In a review of the new Rolls Royce EV there was a comment that it drove very much like the petrol version, quiet, refined, smooth and of course weighed nearly 3 tons.
In many ways companies like RR have the least to gain from electrification. They’ve expect the last 100 years developing cars with these traits. They do have the most to lose though.
The trouble is that now all the other manufacturers can create cars as refined as RR as well. And if one of them decides to go for the interior quality of a Rolls and puts enough effort into it then they could create a credible competitor at a fraction of the price.
Remember what Lexus did to BMW and Mercedes? What if they decide to go for Rolls with a luxury EV?
In many ways companies like RR have the least to gain from electrification. They’ve expect the last 100 years developing cars with these traits. They do have the most to lose though.
The trouble is that now all the other manufacturers can create cars as refined as RR as well. And if one of them decides to go for the interior quality of a Rolls and puts enough effort into it then they could create a credible competitor at a fraction of the price.
Remember what Lexus did to BMW and Mercedes? What if they decide to go for Rolls with a luxury EV?
RR hasn't been objectively the best automobile for nearly a century or so, it's been selling its brand one way or another since. Electrification is an advantage as they're no longer beholden to other large automakers for engines and transmissions, electric motors are a commodity and no one much cares where the one(or more) propelling them comes from, they all make the same lack of noise.
cj2013 said:
Tony33 said:
or many the “engine go brum brum” has been a differentiating aspect of ICE for decades for which people will pay a premium for a characterful, aurally pleasing engine over other perceived duller ICE offerings. For Pistonheads that might seem important.
Well yes, when it was one of the only differentiating factors.Fact of the matter is, people also used to spend absolute fortunes on tuning and trying to eek out an age old propulsion design so that it would deliver smooth and consistent power. Now, you've got Chinese-built MG family hatchbacks that will decimate the last generation of supercars, all for a smidge more cash than a factory Ford Focus. It's never been cheaper, or more practical, to go faster.
For Pistonheads, that might also seem important.
Every generation of car improves on the performance of the last. It really isn't an issue for most petrolheads. E30 M3 or latest M3 - I know which I prefer. I can see how many are seduced by EV performance because many drivers have never owned a car with similar performance.
Plenty of us have enough money to make cost savings irrelevant and in addition to brum brum noises we like manual gearboxes and driving something that feels mechanical and not electrical. The clinical efficiency of an EV is not attractive - it's a turn off.
I'm very happy for anyone for whom an EV is preferable but they're not for everyone. I'd be delighted to see the rumoured £10K Chinese EVs. They will deliver cheaper motoring for millions but they won't make any difference to people who prefer ICE vehicles and for whom costs are irrelevant any more than a rapid Tesla will tempt them away from an RS6. What I hope and think they should do is give everyone the chance to replace a practical runabout with something cheaper to run. I'll happily replace my diesel hack with an EV but no EV will replace any of my fun cars.
Edited by Unreal on Friday 26th April 06:49
Unreal said:
cj2013 said:
Tony33 said:
or many the “engine go brum brum” has been a differentiating aspect of ICE for decades for which people will pay a premium for a characterful, aurally pleasing engine over other perceived duller ICE offerings. For Pistonheads that might seem important.
Well yes, when it was one of the only differentiating factors.Fact of the matter is, people also used to spend absolute fortunes on tuning and trying to eek out an age old propulsion design so that it would deliver smooth and consistent power. Now, you've got Chinese-built MG family hatchbacks that will decimate the last generation of supercars, all for a smidge more cash than a factory Ford Focus. It's never been cheaper, or more practical, to go faster.
For Pistonheads, that might also seem important.
Every generation of car improves on the performance of the last. It really isn't an issue for most petrolheads. E30 M3 or latest M3 - I know which I prefer. I can see how many are seduced by EV performance because many drivers have never owned a car with similar performance.
Plenty of us have enough money to make cost savings irrelevant and in addition to brum brum noises we like manual gearboxes and driving something that feels mechanical and not electrical. The clinical efficiency of an EV is not attractive - it's a turn off.
I'm very happy for anyone for whom an EV is preferable but they're not for everyone. I'd be delighted to see the rumoured £10K Chinese EVs. They will deliver cheaper motoring for millions but they won't make any difference to people who prefer ICE vehicles and for whom costs are irrelevant any more than a rapid Tesla will tempt them away from an RS6. What I hope and think they should do is give everyone the chance to replace a practical runabout with something cheaper to run. I'll happily replace my diesel hack with an EV but no EV will replace any of my fun cars.
Edited by Unreal on Friday 26th April 06:49
I have little desire to drive my 911 most of the time on road now I’ve got a good EV.
I’m firmly of the opinion that on road I’ll be driving my EV most of the time, and not just because of the running costs, I just don’t enjoy driving what (for me) is a less good vehicle on the road.
Its funny how enthusiastic drivers (which is what I consider myself to be) can come to diametrically different conclusions!
Could have been a Tesla charger? 3.5 miles a kwh at a rate of 38p? That's the lowest I've seen on a supercharger anyway.
I believe what car did some sort of test a few months back with an MG4 and Model 3 and found the 3 was significantly cheaper on a long drive due to the charging cost differences.
I believe what car did some sort of test a few months back with an MG4 and Model 3 and found the 3 was significantly cheaper on a long drive due to the charging cost differences.
740EVTORQUES said:
Unreal said:
cj2013 said:
Tony33 said:
or many the “engine go brum brum” has been a differentiating aspect of ICE for decades for which people will pay a premium for a characterful, aurally pleasing engine over other perceived duller ICE offerings. For Pistonheads that might seem important.
Well yes, when it was one of the only differentiating factors.Fact of the matter is, people also used to spend absolute fortunes on tuning and trying to eek out an age old propulsion design so that it would deliver smooth and consistent power. Now, you've got Chinese-built MG family hatchbacks that will decimate the last generation of supercars, all for a smidge more cash than a factory Ford Focus. It's never been cheaper, or more practical, to go faster.
For Pistonheads, that might also seem important.
Every generation of car improves on the performance of the last. It really isn't an issue for most petrolheads. E30 M3 or latest M3 - I know which I prefer. I can see how many are seduced by EV performance because many drivers have never owned a car with similar performance.
Plenty of us have enough money to make cost savings irrelevant and in addition to brum brum noises we like manual gearboxes and driving something that feels mechanical and not electrical. The clinical efficiency of an EV is not attractive - it's a turn off.
I'm very happy for anyone for whom an EV is preferable but they're not for everyone. I'd be delighted to see the rumoured £10K Chinese EVs. They will deliver cheaper motoring for millions but they won't make any difference to people who prefer ICE vehicles and for whom costs are irrelevant any more than a rapid Tesla will tempt them away from an RS6. What I hope and think they should do is give everyone the chance to replace a practical runabout with something cheaper to run. I'll happily replace my diesel hack with an EV but no EV will replace any of my fun cars.
Edited by Unreal on Friday 26th April 06:49
I have little desire to drive my 911 most of the time on road now I’ve got a good EV.
I’m firmly of the opinion that on road I’ll be driving my EV most of the time, and not just because of the running costs, I just don’t enjoy driving what (for me) is a less good vehicle on the road.
Its funny how enthusiastic drivers (which is what I consider myself to be) can come to diametrically different conclusions!
The only time when things like NVH might matter to me is for those situations when I'm doing a very long and boring drive. I used to have cars like Jag V12s for those journeys but once I stopped making long trips those cars were sold. I might still love a four door barge but I have no use for them, so it makes no sense for me to drop thousands on something that might give me enhancements I don't value. Local routine journeys are done in a diesel hack. These drives are chores and there isn't a vehicle on the planet that would make them less so. In fact, in a new car in great condition, EV or ICE, I'd be worried about casual damage and losing my ability to park anywhere without a care in the world.
When it comes to wanting to go out and drive for fun, there is no EV made that would interest me. I am not interested in bald acceleration figures. I am far too wise and old to be remotely interested in 0-60 times and I will not compete with other drivers on public roads. It interests me that you would rather drive your Kia over your Porsche but then it sounds as if the Kia is an everyday car. I choose my automatic diesel hack over my GR Yaris if I have to pick up a mate from the station or go to Wickes but tomorrow morning if I want to go for breakfast somewhere in the sticks then the noisy, raucous and manual Toyota will be coming out.
I assume you must still like the 911 otherwise why do you keep it? If you do like it, what makes you choose it over the Kia?
740EVTORQUES said:
Fine, except for a lot of enthusiasts who have owned and still own performance ICE vehicles, for anything other than track use EVs are actually better cars.
”better” is extremely subjective, has been for years and I believe will remain so, hence so many debates about car makes and models. In my view outright performance has long not been a defining factor. I would suggest most after market exhausts are bought for the sound they make rather than any marginal gain in BHP. People feel good about making their car feel sportier, which isn’t about shaving a few tenths off their favourite B road, going a bit more nuts will easily do that.I think things may have gone a bit far with some of the popping and banging engine maps the manufacturers of sports variants add to their cars but it generally adds nothing to the performance more the feel good factor for the owner.
I know a 911 owner who grins every time he talks about the experience of ownership and it isn’t about how fast it goes but how it makes him feel. We are all different but I think the concept that for many ICE are sportier irrespective of figures on paper or track times but for the sensation and a bit of fantasy will remain for some time.
740EVTORQUES said:
Its funny how enthusiastic drivers (which is what I consider myself to be) can come to diametrically different conclusions!
It is.I have just passed the 400+BHP EV to the other half as I find it dull to drive and a bit pointless. I now have an i3s, and I'm much happier bombing about it than that (probably because it is not as good technically so I need to drive it to get the most out of it).
I found all the "performance" EVs a waste of time, tbh (not driven a Kia), with no driver involvement in any way. My 8-year-old can drive them as fast as I can, and they take no skill whatsoever.
My ICE is a nicer and more involved drive for when I actually want to drive (there is no need for a track), while the EV is perfect for running to the dump, taking kids to school, going to the shops or driving in London.
I have had EVs for nearly three years now and have never taken them out just for a drive.
You can't beat an early morning Sunday run.
Edited by TheRainMaker on Friday 26th April 12:24
FiF said:
It still smacks of who gives a stuff about poor people, but local knowledge says there is a not insignificant % of households in very nice apartments who fall into that category. Then there are those who are just about managing but aspirationally would like to move into car ownership to ease their daily life and open up other opportunities to advance.
Frankly the snotty attitudes sometimes shown on here disgust me.
This is nonsense. Frankly the snotty attitudes sometimes shown on here disgust me.
This is a phased transition happening over 20+ years. Early adopters with more disposable income (and in this case, driveways) are always the place to start. Similarly, focus on fleet buyers to get some scale and used cars into the market.
No-one is forcing poor people to buy EVs and no-one is forgetting about them. On-street chargers are proliferating and over the next decade we'll see provision improve for those without driveways. Council estates have loads of parking; it's just a matter of time and money to roll out charging points to them. For example for terraced housing, something like a simple channel in the footpath from the front garden to the gutter could open up millions of houses to have EVs.
Like this product. I think some councils are experimenting with similar ideas.
https://gul-e.co.uk/
Remember, most people will only need charge their cars once every 1-2 weeks.
Frimley111R said:
I did and it is his opinion, some of which may be/is right, but the lovely world of EV dreamland....
You think my comments make me sound old but they are balanced and I don't have a delusional view of EVs.
Your head is in the sand.You think my comments make me sound old but they are balanced and I don't have a delusional view of EVs.
This is not opinion:
GT9 said:
...
We cannot unlearn what the last ten or so years have taught us about decarbonisation for cars. That knowledge is with us forever. Today’s EVs are averaging about 20-25 tons lifetime footprint. By 2035 this is very likely to be at 10-15 tons. ICE will sit at 50 tons. These are not minor differences, they are unavoidably large and impossible to ignore for any western policy maker.
Yes you and I can dispute the numbers, but by and large, they are now accepted in industry and at government level amongst thousands if not tens of thousands of decision makers in government and at the manufacturers.
...
We cannot unlearn what the last ten or so years have taught us about decarbonisation for cars. That knowledge is with us forever. Today’s EVs are averaging about 20-25 tons lifetime footprint. By 2035 this is very likely to be at 10-15 tons. ICE will sit at 50 tons. These are not minor differences, they are unavoidably large and impossible to ignore for any western policy maker.
Yes you and I can dispute the numbers, but by and large, they are now accepted in industry and at government level amongst thousands if not tens of thousands of decision makers in government and at the manufacturers.
...
Unreal said:
As soon as the debate moves to the driving experience, there is no 'better' car. It has to be subjective. For example, NVH is something that is often highly valued by drivers and seems to appeal to many EV owners. Whilst NVH is measurable and therefore can demonstrate an objective advantage, it doesn't matter if like me, you don't have concerns over rattles and rather like loud cars and things like supercharger whine.
The only time when things like NVH might matter to me is for those situations when I'm doing a very long and boring drive. I used to have cars like Jag V12s for those journeys but once I stopped making long trips those cars were sold. I might still love a four door barge but I have no use for them, so it makes no sense for me to drop thousands on something that might give me enhancements I don't value. Local routine journeys are done in a diesel hack. These drives are chores and there isn't a vehicle on the planet that would make them less so. In fact, in a new car in great condition, EV or ICE, I'd be worried about casual damage and losing my ability to park anywhere without a care in the world.
When it comes to wanting to go out and drive for fun, there is no EV made that would interest me. I am not interested in bald acceleration figures. I am far too wise and old to be remotely interested in 0-60 times and I will not compete with other drivers on public roads. It interests me that you would rather drive your Kia over your Porsche but then it sounds as if the Kia is an everyday car. I choose my automatic diesel hack over my GR Yaris if I have to pick up a mate from the station or go to Wickes but tomorrow morning if I want to go for breakfast somewhere in the sticks then the noisy, raucous and manual Toyota will be coming out.
I assume you must still like the 911 otherwise why do you keep it? If you do like it, what makes you choose it over the Kia?
Yes, I love the 997.1 C2s that I have. In fact I kept it in storage when I got the EV, fully expecting to hate the experience, in case I wanted to flip the EV and go back to petrol (that was still a thing 18/12 ago)The only time when things like NVH might matter to me is for those situations when I'm doing a very long and boring drive. I used to have cars like Jag V12s for those journeys but once I stopped making long trips those cars were sold. I might still love a four door barge but I have no use for them, so it makes no sense for me to drop thousands on something that might give me enhancements I don't value. Local routine journeys are done in a diesel hack. These drives are chores and there isn't a vehicle on the planet that would make them less so. In fact, in a new car in great condition, EV or ICE, I'd be worried about casual damage and losing my ability to park anywhere without a care in the world.
When it comes to wanting to go out and drive for fun, there is no EV made that would interest me. I am not interested in bald acceleration figures. I am far too wise and old to be remotely interested in 0-60 times and I will not compete with other drivers on public roads. It interests me that you would rather drive your Kia over your Porsche but then it sounds as if the Kia is an everyday car. I choose my automatic diesel hack over my GR Yaris if I have to pick up a mate from the station or go to Wickes but tomorrow morning if I want to go for breakfast somewhere in the sticks then the noisy, raucous and manual Toyota will be coming out.
I assume you must still like the 911 otherwise why do you keep it? If you do like it, what makes you choose it over the Kia?
But I was surprised at both how much I genuinely enjoyed driving the EV, and how few occasions I actually wanted to drive the 997. Even on a sunny day with no real pressure on time, ideal sports car circumstances you would have thought, I find myself just preferring the EV.
Hand on heart, the main reason I drive it now is through guilt in having a car that I don't drive, and to make sure it gets a warm up every month. It's still a lovely thing, I just don't feel compelled to drive it.
I recently took the Porsche on track for the first time (too wet a day for my track car) and absolutely loved it, so I'm wondering whether changing the 997 for a GT3 might be the way to go as I so rarely use it on road now.
It probably says more about me than the cars, but it's not what I had expected. (worth noting that I recently bought another Caterham, having built one 15 years ago and run it as a daily driver for 5 years. Absolutely hated it and sold it after a year. I guess things move on!)
braddo said:
No-one is forcing poor people to buy EVs and no-one is forgetting about them. On-street chargers are proliferating and over the next decade we'll see provision improve for those without driveways. Council estates have loads of parking; it's just a matter of time and money to roll out charging points to them. For example for terraced housing, something like a simple channel in the footpath from the front garden to the gutter could open up millions of houses to have EVs.
it is more than just providing chargers though, even if there are theoretically enough chargers for everyone in streets, being able to access them when needed is going to add to stress and exacerbate parking wars. EVs potentially solve the air quality issues but don’t resolve the congestion and streets filled with parked cars causing obstructions to emergency vehicles, recycling lorries and pavements. I believe the aim will be to dramatically reduce car usage and ownership in urban areas, which will solve some of the charging issues, reversing the mobility of labour that cheap private transport has revolutionised and putting urban streets back to their original design of workforces housed in walking distance of their work place and leisure facilities. People will move over the next 20 years or so as urban transport changes. Look at some of the case studies of car less cities and large towns.
Tony33 said:
t is more than just providing chargers though, even if there are theoretically enough chargers for everyone in streets, being able to access them when needed is going to add to stress and exacerbate parking wars.
EVs potentially solve the air quality issues but don’t resolve the congestion and streets filled with parked cars causing obstructions to emergency vehicles, recycling lorries and pavements. I believe the aim will be to dramatically reduce car usage and ownership in urban areas, which will solve some of the charging issues, reversing the mobility of labour that cheap private transport has revolutionised and putting urban streets back to their original design of workforces housed in walking distance of their work place and leisure facilities. People will move over the next 20 years or so as urban transport changes. Look at some of the case studies of car less cities and large towns.
I think this is a factor in the lack of concern of urban planners about this - from a certain point of view, owning cars in dense urban areas becoming more difficult is a feature, not a bug.EVs potentially solve the air quality issues but don’t resolve the congestion and streets filled with parked cars causing obstructions to emergency vehicles, recycling lorries and pavements. I believe the aim will be to dramatically reduce car usage and ownership in urban areas, which will solve some of the charging issues, reversing the mobility of labour that cheap private transport has revolutionised and putting urban streets back to their original design of workforces housed in walking distance of their work place and leisure facilities. People will move over the next 20 years or so as urban transport changes. Look at some of the case studies of car less cities and large towns.
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