EVs... no one wants them!
Discussion
Ankh87 said:
It doesn't work though. Local companies are few and far between, jobs for people just aren't there. Back then there were plenty of manufacturers but now everything is make outside of the UK. Look at Tata for example. So you're asking for a utopia to which no longer exists in this century.
As for car sharing, again this doesn't really work. We do it at my work and there's only a handful if that of people that do it. People have things going on in their life that makes it near impossible. Such things as picking up kids, hobbies after work or even second jobs.
Yes it would be great for what you're asking for but since the 70s and 80s, this all changed.
Even where I live, there use to be loads of local jobs but since a certain Prime Minister closed a lot of it down, the locals all had to find jobs further away.
But surely that is worth trying to reverse, it would probably have just as much of a beneficial environmental effect as encouraging take up of EVs?As for car sharing, again this doesn't really work. We do it at my work and there's only a handful if that of people that do it. People have things going on in their life that makes it near impossible. Such things as picking up kids, hobbies after work or even second jobs.
Yes it would be great for what you're asking for but since the 70s and 80s, this all changed.
Even where I live, there use to be loads of local jobs but since a certain Prime Minister closed a lot of it down, the locals all had to find jobs further away.
And just to clarify, I’m not talking about restricting freedom to travel, quite the reverse freeing people from the tyranny of having to travel just to work
Tony33 said:
Unreal said:
I'm all right Jack. I have a drive and garages with power. An EV would be just fine for me and millions like me. I'm concerned about everyone else. It is not about poor people wanting luxuries they have never been able to have, and shouldn't expect to have. It's about removing a basic level of convenience with no way of replacing it. Car less communities and improved public transport. Do me a favour. If we're going car less, why put in charging points? As for public transport - it's already a joke and deteriorating, not improving.
Baby steps, council "solutions" are just a token gesture at this stage. I believe the aim will be to evolve the change to car less or much reduced car usage by steadily making it less appealing to have cars. People will move and be replaced by people who embrace active travel and public transport. Not everyone will be happy about it. Returning cities to how they were in the olden days seems to be a thing and not without support it seems.Regardless of the fact that this masterplan seems to involve going back in time, I just can't see it working in practice. Time will tell as always. In the meantime, I await the next steps in terms of getting the majority of the population who are overweight on their bikes and walking and the transformation of public transport to a non-feral and stained seat free first choice. Any baby steps on the horizon for those two issues?
Edited by Unreal on Saturday 27th April 13:26
740EVTORQUES said:
Ankh87 said:
That's all good and well trying to make things how they were before but this isn't the 60s no more. People don't just work around the corner from home or even in the same city.
Lots of people commute from one city to another which can mean in some cases a 2 bus journey that takes over an hour or 20 minutes by car.
So trying to force people to use public transport doesn't really work.
And that is something that will need to change if we are all to live in a more sustainable way.Lots of people commute from one city to another which can mean in some cases a 2 bus journey that takes over an hour or 20 minutes by car.
So trying to force people to use public transport doesn't really work.
The idea that large numbers of people should drive in individual vehicles for several hours a day just to get to and from work is a a relatively new phenomenon, and not something to try to preserve.
Imagine the positive effects on quality of life if people weren’t forced to do this?
biggbn said:
740EVTORQUES said:
Ankh87 said:
That's all good and well trying to make things how they were before but this isn't the 60s no more. People don't just work around the corner from home or even in the same city.
Lots of people commute from one city to another which can mean in some cases a 2 bus journey that takes over an hour or 20 minutes by car.
So trying to force people to use public transport doesn't really work.
And that is something that will need to change if we are all to live in a more sustainable way.Lots of people commute from one city to another which can mean in some cases a 2 bus journey that takes over an hour or 20 minutes by car.
So trying to force people to use public transport doesn't really work.
The idea that large numbers of people should drive in individual vehicles for several hours a day just to get to and from work is a a relatively new phenomenon, and not something to try to preserve.
Imagine the positive effects on quality of life if people weren’t forced to do this?
740EVTORQUES said:
Ankh87 said:
It doesn't work though. Local companies are few and far between, jobs for people just aren't there. Back then there were plenty of manufacturers but now everything is make outside of the UK. Look at Tata for example. So you're asking for a utopia to which no longer exists in this century.
As for car sharing, again this doesn't really work. We do it at my work and there's only a handful if that of people that do it. People have things going on in their life that makes it near impossible. Such things as picking up kids, hobbies after work or even second jobs.
Yes it would be great for what you're asking for but since the 70s and 80s, this all changed.
Even where I live, there use to be loads of local jobs but since a certain Prime Minister closed a lot of it down, the locals all had to find jobs further away.
But surely that is worth trying to reverse, it would probably have just as much of a beneficial environmental effect as encouraging take up of EVs?As for car sharing, again this doesn't really work. We do it at my work and there's only a handful if that of people that do it. People have things going on in their life that makes it near impossible. Such things as picking up kids, hobbies after work or even second jobs.
Yes it would be great for what you're asking for but since the 70s and 80s, this all changed.
Even where I live, there use to be loads of local jobs but since a certain Prime Minister closed a lot of it down, the locals all had to find jobs further away.
And just to clarify, I’m not talking about restricting freedom to travel, quite the reverse freeing people from the tyranny of having to travel just to work
How can you make public transport better when it's all privately owner? Those companies have had decades to improve it, yet still haven't.
Unreal said:
biggbn said:
740EVTORQUES said:
Ankh87 said:
That's all good and well trying to make things how they were before but this isn't the 60s no more. People don't just work around the corner from home or even in the same city.
Lots of people commute from one city to another which can mean in some cases a 2 bus journey that takes over an hour or 20 minutes by car.
So trying to force people to use public transport doesn't really work.
And that is something that will need to change if we are all to live in a more sustainable way.Lots of people commute from one city to another which can mean in some cases a 2 bus journey that takes over an hour or 20 minutes by car.
So trying to force people to use public transport doesn't really work.
The idea that large numbers of people should drive in individual vehicles for several hours a day just to get to and from work is a a relatively new phenomenon, and not something to try to preserve.
Imagine the positive effects on quality of life if people weren’t forced to do this?
M4cruiser said:
There are plenty of streets around here where parking is on one side only. Bit awkward for those living on the wrong side.
https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4003129,-1.3324369...
There's absolutely vast amounts of council built housing in the UK where the rows of houses are built perpendicular to the roads. Great for living away from a noisy road, not so good for anything EV related (communal parking).https://www.google.com/maps/@51.4003129,-1.3324369...
In fact in Scotland (where I live) there are many huge towns buily entirely like this (East Kilbride, Glentlrothes, Livingston, Cumbernauld etc), so it's a significant problem for transitioning to EV ownership - the personal cable or swing arm from your own property is completely non viable.
And yes, just to pre empt the point, poorer people do frequently own cars, in fact such places are often overflowing with them and already have an insufficient number of parking spaces.
Ankh87 said:
Yes it's worth trying but how can you create jobs that just aren't there? You can't just force big companies to buy land or develop a site that's not going to be beneficial
How can you make public transport better when it's all privately owner? Those companies have had decades to improve it, yet still haven't.
It will be a slow process but much like cheap private transport transformed the mobility of labour it can supposedly be undone over time as companies move their premises to where the labour force can more easily reach it and/or workers move to be closer to work. How can you make public transport better when it's all privately owner? Those companies have had decades to improve it, yet still haven't.
The vision has nothing to with EVs as such, the transition creates the opportunity to make private transport less desirable for those in areas without home charging capability.
In theory public transport could be much more reliable and frequent devoid of other traffic and with a market with less alternatives.
biggbn said:
Unreal said:
biggbn said:
740EVTORQUES said:
Ankh87 said:
That's all good and well trying to make things how they were before but this isn't the 60s no more. People don't just work around the corner from home or even in the same city.
Lots of people commute from one city to another which can mean in some cases a 2 bus journey that takes over an hour or 20 minutes by car.
So trying to force people to use public transport doesn't really work.
And that is something that will need to change if we are all to live in a more sustainable way.Lots of people commute from one city to another which can mean in some cases a 2 bus journey that takes over an hour or 20 minutes by car.
So trying to force people to use public transport doesn't really work.
The idea that large numbers of people should drive in individual vehicles for several hours a day just to get to and from work is a a relatively new phenomenon, and not something to try to preserve.
Imagine the positive effects on quality of life if people weren’t forced to do this?
One paradox of EVs is that being so cheap to run. They might actually encourage people to travel more resulting in more congestion and lessening their environmental benefit.
EVs are an important step no doubt and massively better than the ICE alternatives, but there need to be other deeper changes as well.
It all sounds an affront to personal freedom and what we take for granted, but the alternatives are far worse aren’t they?
Who knows, we may look back and wonder why we didn’t make these changes sooner!
Tony33 said:
Ankh87 said:
Yes it's worth trying but how can you create jobs that just aren't there? You can't just force big companies to buy land or develop a site that's not going to be beneficial
How can you make public transport better when it's all privately owner? Those companies have had decades to improve it, yet still haven't.
It will be a slow process but much like cheap private transport transformed the mobility of labour it can supposedly be undone over time as companies move their premises to where the labour force can more easily reach it and/or workers move to be closer to work. How can you make public transport better when it's all privately owner? Those companies have had decades to improve it, yet still haven't.
The vision has nothing to with EVs as such, the transition creates the opportunity to make private transport less desirable for those in areas without home charging capability.
In theory public transport could be much more reliable and frequent devoid of other traffic and with a market with less alternatives.
Everything is scattered around at the moment and apart from the city centre impossible to reach efficiently.
Went to pickup something I bought on ebay from a large housing estate built 10 years ago, tiny, cul-de-sac roads, no shops, no buses/trains, no pubs, one school
FiF said:
CheesecakeRunner said:
Sounds like it’s not only that generation who lacks resilience.
And don’t make assumptions about which generation I’m from.
Don't make assumptions that I don't care about younger generations either, or the mess that the country and world is in and how we move forward. Just speaking bluntly as I find unfortunately.And don’t make assumptions about which generation I’m from.
plfrench said:
It won't. Just found this - Nottingham Council clearly agree with you, so the whole idea is utterly, utterly pointless and a waste of cash:
"Having an EV cable channel installed does not guarantee parking outside your property as a dedicated parking bay outside the property won’t be provided as part of the trial.
This would reduce limited on-street parking capacity for residents and visitors throughout the day at locations where there are already parking pressures, and as the EV charge point would be used exclusively by one household a reserved bay is not considered appropriate."
It makes sense that they don't do guaranteed spaces as part of a small trial. Just because you can't guarantee 24/7 access to that parking space doesn't make the cable channel useless. The vast majority of people will not need to charge their cars more than once a week. Some streets it might not work for, but for millions of others it will as ONE option among MANY solutions to make EV ownership viable for people without driveways in the coming years."Having an EV cable channel installed does not guarantee parking outside your property as a dedicated parking bay outside the property won’t be provided as part of the trial.
This would reduce limited on-street parking capacity for residents and visitors throughout the day at locations where there are already parking pressures, and as the EV charge point would be used exclusively by one household a reserved bay is not considered appropriate."
Not you specifically but Jesus, some of the miserable pessimists posting on this thread
braddo said:
plfrench said:
It won't. Just found this - Nottingham Council clearly agree with you, so the whole idea is utterly, utterly pointless and a waste of cash:
"Having an EV cable channel installed does not guarantee parking outside your property as a dedicated parking bay outside the property won’t be provided as part of the trial.
This would reduce limited on-street parking capacity for residents and visitors throughout the day at locations where there are already parking pressures, and as the EV charge point would be used exclusively by one household a reserved bay is not considered appropriate."
It makes sense that they don't do guaranteed spaces as part of a small trial. Just because you can't guarantee 24/7 access to that parking space doesn't make the cable channel useless. The vast majority of people will not need to charge their cars more than once a week. Some streets it might not work for, but for millions of others it will as ONE option among MANY solutions to make EV ownership viable for people without driveways in the coming years."Having an EV cable channel installed does not guarantee parking outside your property as a dedicated parking bay outside the property won’t be provided as part of the trial.
This would reduce limited on-street parking capacity for residents and visitors throughout the day at locations where there are already parking pressures, and as the EV charge point would be used exclusively by one household a reserved bay is not considered appropriate."
Not you specifically but Jesus, some of the miserable pessimists posting on this thread
An example of a local council planning. Lambeth borough in London. Seems pretty well thought out. Being central London they are looking to reduce car use.
https://moderngov.lambeth.gov.uk/documents/s149438...
https://moderngov.lambeth.gov.uk/documents/s149438...
I'm just over a month into ownership on my EV (Mini Cooper SE). I had to drive our other two ICE cars this weekend... Number 2 son's stolen car which is a totally knackered fiesta, this one has the bike racks on and I was hauling bikes, and then the missus ICE Mini Cooper as its a 5 door and I had to drop her and her mates off.
All I can say is I was glad to get back in the EV
It's just nicer in every way.
All I can say is I was glad to get back in the EV
It's just nicer in every way. Dave200 said:
FiF said:
CheesecakeRunner said:
Sounds like it’s not only that generation who lacks resilience.
And don’t make assumptions about which generation I’m from.
Don't make assumptions that I don't care about younger generations either, or the mess that the country and world is in and how we move forward. Just speaking bluntly as I find unfortunately.And don’t make assumptions about which generation I’m from.
Things were different that's for sure, different challenges, different problems, young complaining about old uns, and vice versa. There was a claim made that the older generation had no regard for a younger generation that had to live with the problems created directly by that older generation. In time honoured fashion it was worth pointing out that there's a younger generation some of whom are making things difficult for themselves and many others right now and going into the future. It's always been the case, just the issues change.
Or maybe we're just supposed to ignore frequent antagonistic and rude bull crap just because. Actually that's not a bad idea.
braddo said:
An example of a local council planning. Lambeth borough in London. Seems pretty well thought out. Being central London they are looking to reduce car use.
https://moderngov.lambeth.gov.uk/documents/s149438...
It does seem far more thought has gone into this compared to others. At least it is transparent about using the EV transition to reduce car ownership:https://moderngov.lambeth.gov.uk/documents/s149438...
“For this reason, we will not promote a like for like switch from one car to another, but rather use the market disruption caused by the emergence of EVs to encourage lower levels of car ownership and use, as well as a move to more active travel and shared mobility.”
740EVTORQUES said:
biggbn said:
Unreal said:
biggbn said:
740EVTORQUES said:
Ankh87 said:
That's all good and well trying to make things how they were before but this isn't the 60s no more. People don't just work around the corner from home or even in the same city.
Lots of people commute from one city to another which can mean in some cases a 2 bus journey that takes over an hour or 20 minutes by car.
So trying to force people to use public transport doesn't really work.
And that is something that will need to change if we are all to live in a more sustainable way.Lots of people commute from one city to another which can mean in some cases a 2 bus journey that takes over an hour or 20 minutes by car.
So trying to force people to use public transport doesn't really work.
The idea that large numbers of people should drive in individual vehicles for several hours a day just to get to and from work is a a relatively new phenomenon, and not something to try to preserve.
Imagine the positive effects on quality of life if people weren’t forced to do this?
One paradox of EVs is that being so cheap to run. They might actually encourage people to travel more resulting in more congestion and lessening their environmental benefit.
EVs are an important step no doubt and massively better than the ICE alternatives, but there need to be other deeper changes as well.
It all sounds an affront to personal freedom and what we take for granted, but the alternatives are far worse aren’t they?
Who knows, we may look back and wonder why we didn’t make these changes sooner!
thanks manstargazer30 said:
I'm just over a month into ownership on my EV (Mini Cooper SE). I had to drive our other two ICE cars this weekend... Number 2 son's stolen car which is a totally knackered fiesta, this one has the bike racks on and I was hauling bikes, and then the missus ICE Mini Cooper as its a 5 door and I had to drop her and her mates off.
All I can say is I was glad to get back in the EV It's just nicer in every way.
That's what I want. But a cabrio. In that lairy green/yellow colourAll I can say is I was glad to get back in the EV
It's just nicer in every way. stargazer30 said:
I'm just over a month into ownership on my EV (Mini Cooper SE). I had to drive our other two ICE cars this weekend... Number 2 son's stolen car which is a totally knackered fiesta, this one has the bike racks on and I was hauling bikes, and then the missus ICE Mini Cooper as its a 5 door and I had to drop her and her mates off.
All I can say is I was glad to get back in the EV It's just nicer in every way.
All that says to me is that small hatchbacks are nicer when powered by an electric motor - and that’s assuming the 2 minis are the same generation model. All I can say is I was glad to get back in the EV
It's just nicer in every way. I drove to the gym today in a 15 year old ICE car with a manual gearbox. It was much better than the EV I own and others I have driven.
Both are compromises, but if I had to choose one it’d be ICE car. Luckily I don’t have to choose, so I just pick the best tool for the job.
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