EVs... no one wants them!

[NDA]

GeneralBanter said:

All I can say is I get 600+ miles on a tank, so fill up and know that:

1. For 2-3 weeks I can forget about it
2. There's no range anxiety
3. I don't have to plan trips around charging points
4. I don't have to wait in a queue or hang around mid journey while charging
5. I don't have to remember to charge at home
6. There's no being ripped off for electricity charging
7. I can choose when and where I next fill up, usually leave it to get on reserve.
8. When I do fill up its straight to the pump and less than 5 minutes.
Incredible isn't it

Unlike you, I have both (although my petrol car has a lower range than my EV). For the EV (after 4 years of owning it)

1. I never think about refuelling. Ever. It's always full. Every morning.
2. I have no range anxiety.
3. I don't have to plan trips around charging - I rarely do 300 mile round trips, if I do, the car sorts it out.
4. I've never had to wait at a supercharger the car knows which are free - normally out of 8 or 12 chargers.
5. I assume you charge your phone at night? Same with the car, takes no time to plug it in.
6. I pay a low rate for charging and supercharging (Tesla) is not expensive. Glad not to pay a fortune for petrol.
7. I don't need to choose a petrol station, the car is always full.
8. See above.

And this is for a quick car too - far nicer than a diesel.

None of this makes me an 'EVangelist' by the way - or I could also be called an Astonist, or Lamboist, or Bentlyist.

[Dave200]

BricktopST205 said:

Dave200 said:

I get 300+ miles on a 'tank'.

I fill up at home, which takes me less than 30 seconds of effort and those 300 miles cost me a tenner.

Now that's incredible.

What isn't incredible is when you come to sell and replace your car it is worth buttons and you have lost a chunk of cash because residuals are rubbish. Much rather fill up for 5 minutes once a month whilst doing the shopping in that respect than throwing good money away.

My car, like most in the UK, is financed. I'll give it back to the finance company at the end of the term and go finance/lease another.

[GeneralBanter]

GeneralBanter said:

All I can say is I get 600+ miles on a tank, so fill up and know that:

1. For 2-3 weeks I can forget about it
2. There's no range anxiety
3. I don't have to plan trips around charging points
4. I don't have to wait in a queue or hang around mid journey while charging
5. I don't have to remember to charge at home
6. There's no being ripped off for electricity charging
7. I can choose when and where I next fill up, usually leave it to get on reserve.
8. When I do fill up it’s straight to the pump and less than 5 minutes.
9. Good used car market
10. No £5,000-£15,000 bill out of the blue when the battery fails for no reason of use.
11. No crap residual value
12. No sudden shock when electric prices rise to a captive audience

Incredible isn't it

Edited to add.
If anyone knows of a 13th add it.

[Dave200]

OutInTheShed said:

Mikehig said:

Could part of the reason for "range anxiety" be that some (many?) folk have no idea of their car's range nor of how many miles they drive in a typical week or month?
Maybe they just trundle around, checking the fuel gauge occasionally, and fill up when necessary.
Some may have some idea of range from the car's dashboard display - those that bother to look after filling up.

This may apply particularly to shared cars, used by two or more members of the same family, for example. (We've all experienced, or heard of, getting into the car and wondering how long the fuel light has been on!).

So all the talk about range might create uncertainty for those considering EV because they have no idea what they need, charging requirements, etc.

Some people will have memories of things like motorbikes with limited range, pottering home on reserve after the garages are shut.
If you're used to a 24 hour fuels station every couple of miles, some people would find rural life a shock.
My car goes 'bing' and the fuel light comes on with 60 miles to go.
My wife's car goes bing and oh st, it has 32 miles of fuel. I hate that car!

A lot of people are happy to do one more round with petrol.
Friend of my wife has just ordered a hybrid.
All-in cost over 3 years is slightly less than a similar EV, and the car will do any long trips.

Give it another couple of years, there will be more chargers, and the price difference might be the other way.
There will come a point where a lot more people will see the inconvenience of finite range as tolerably compensated by cash in their pocket.
Apart from Tesla, 300 mile 'alleged' range basically means a 21 or newer EV.
Two years' time, those cars are going to start looking tempting to a lot of people who do the odd long journey.
They could hammer the residual values of IC cars.

I think we are already seeing 200 mile + EVs hammering the value of short range chariots like the Leaf and the i3.

Nothing 'alleged' about it. My Tesla regularly does 300+ miles in mixed driving without really trying.

[BricktopST205]

Dave200 said:

My car, like most in the UK, is financed. I'll give it back to the finance company at the end of the term and go finance/lease another.

Yes salary sacrifice is about the only time these actually make sense but how long will the government artifically prop this up?

[GT9]

GeneralBanter said:

GeneralBanter said:

All I can say is I get 600+ miles on a tank, so fill up and know that:

1. For 2-3 weeks I can forget about it
2. There's no range anxiety
3. I don't have to plan trips around charging points
4. I don't have to wait in a queue or hang around mid journey while charging
5. I don't have to remember to charge at home
6. There's no being ripped off for electricity charging
7. I can choose when and where I next fill up, usually leave it to get on reserve.
8. When I do fill up it’s straight to the pump and less than 5 minutes.
9. Good used car market
10. No £5,000-£15,000 bill out of the blue when the battery fails for no reason of use.
11. No crap residual value
12. No sudden shock when electric prices rise to a captive audience

Incredible isn't it

Edited to add.
If anyone knows of a 13th add it.

Point 9, is a bit silly, that's simply a matter of time thing.
Point 10, low probability, mostly likely will have saved that in fuel by the time it happens, if it happens.
Point 11, hmm, ICEs are not immune to crap residuals, good luck trying the sell a leggy diesel in 5-10 years time.
Point 12, we have been a captive audience to fuel prices for a century, what's going to change? If anything, once renewable electricity becomes the norm, fossil fuels will be taxed punitively. Eventually, running an ICE will become a choice for those who want to pay handsomely for it, e-fuelled or otherwise.

[GeneralBanter]

GT9 said:

GeneralBanter said:

GeneralBanter said:

All I can say is I get 600+ miles on a tank, so fill up and know that:

1. For 2-3 weeks I can forget about it
2. There's no range anxiety
3. I don't have to plan trips around charging points
4. I don't have to wait in a queue or hang around mid journey while charging
5. I don't have to remember to charge at home
6. There's no being ripped off for electricity charging
7. I can choose when and where I next fill up, usually leave it to get on reserve.
8. When I do fill up it’s straight to the pump and less than 5 minutes.
9. Good used car market
10. No £5,000-£15,000 bill out of the blue when the battery fails for no reason of use.
11. No crap residual value
12. No sudden shock when electric prices rise to a captive audience

Incredible isn't it

Edited to add.
If anyone knows of a 13th add it.

Point 9, is a bit silly, that's simply a matter of time thing.
Point 10, low probability, mostly likely will have saved that in fuel by the time it happens, if it happens.
Point 11, hmm, ICEs are not immune to crap residuals, good luck trying the sell a leggy diesel in 5-10 years time.
Point 12, we have been a captive audience to fuel prices for a century, what's going to change? If anything, once renewable electricity becomes the norm, fossil fuels will be taxed punitively. Eventually, running an ICE will become a choice for those who want to pay handsomely for it, e-fuelled or otherwise.

You’d better hope the subsidies continue then so you don’t end up with the driving equivalent of a Betamax video player

[TheRainMaker]

tamore said:

KingGary said:

Here you go, they didn’t have a 0-100% option for rapid charging as it slows down to avoid boiling the battery apparently Still looking at up to an hour with anything but the fastest 150kw charge rates to get from 20-80%

and the latest ones that will take 250kW? 75 miles in 5 mins.

I would take most charging speeds with a pinch of salt tbh.

My car can take 150kW for a period of time, but it still takes around 25 mins to add 100 miles of range.

I would say only half of the chargers i’ve used have ever been close to advertised speed, and that has nothing to do with the state of charge, they were just slow.

[Dave200]

BricktopST205 said:

Dave200 said:

My car, like most in the UK, is financed. I'll give it back to the finance company at the end of the term and go finance/lease another.

Yes salary sacrifice is about the only time these actually make sense but how long will the government artifically prop this up?

Mine is privately owned. Nothing to do with salary sacrifice.

[105.4]

“EV’s. Nobody wants them”….is the thread title.

I’m a week into ownership of my first EV. Here are my thoughts, for what little they are worth.

I don’t care about the polar bears. I dislike Greta Thunberg. I’d never comply with the restrictions of 15 minute cities, (just like I didn’t comply with Covid restrictions). I don’t bow to social pressure. If anything I do the opposite just to be difficult. All of that being said, I’ve just bought my first EV. A 8750 mile old Renault Kangoo Maxi EV33.



So if I’m the sort of inconsiderate oik who burns plastic in the garden on ‘Earth Day’, why did I buy an electric vehicle? Especially when a couple of years ago I’d have said “if I wanted to drive an electric vehicle, I’d get a job as a milkman”.

Because money. That’s why.

I run two vans for work. A Renault Trafic and an (older), Renault Kangoo. Fuel and vehicle maintenance are my two biggest costs. Rolling around on the driveway in the snow when you’ve got back home from work at 22:00 to do an oil and filter change isn’t much fun when you’ve got to up for work again at 05:00. Spending £1200 pcm on diesel eventually starts to wear a bit thin. With an EV my maintenance costs and my fuel costs are both drastically reduced. That means more money in my pocket, which is good.

And what do I think of my, (our), new EV Kangoo? It’s mainly the Wife’s van. I’ve only driven it a couple of times and it’s a peculiar experience. Not unpleasant, just different. It’s incredibly quiet, very smooth and refined. It’s quick enough up to 40-50mph, but then runs rapidly out of steam. This doesn’t really matter as 95%+ of our driving is in urban areas. For us, it does the job perfectly. I actually quite like it. My Wife loves it !

And for me, that’s what it’s all about . It’s a tool to do the job.

I look at it this way.
If you had to lay 50m2 of decking, with the choice of using an old hand-cranked drill, a plug-in electric drill, or a battery powered drill, you’d take the battery powered drill every time. Why? Because it’s the most convenient tool for the job.

I agree that EVs aren’t the perfect tool for everyone. They’re probably not even the most perfect tool for the majority. But for what my Wife and I need for work, they’re ideal. So much so that before the end of this year I aim to have sold my diesel Renault Trafic and to have bought myself an EV Maxus e-Deliver 3.

Tbh, I struggle to understand the militant hate towards EVs.

Long live the internal combustion engine, (especially big V8’s), but I’m certainly appreciative that small EV vans exist allowing me to save more of my hard earned money.

[Ankh87]

Point 12, electricity will go up in price suddenly as it already has done this. Many are £1000s in debt because of it. Some paying £300 per month for it. Basically my mortgage just for power.
Expect that to change once there's limited ICE available. Government needs to make money it's lost from fuel duty somehow. They aren't just going to go "oh well, I guess we'll just not think about all that billions we no longer get from this public".

[Boxster5]

GeneralBanter said:

GeneralBanter said:

All I can say is I get 600+ miles on a tank, so fill up and know that:

1. For 2-3 weeks I can forget about it
2. There's no range anxiety
3. I don't have to plan trips around charging points
4. I don't have to wait in a queue or hang around mid journey while charging
5. I don't have to remember to charge at home
6. There's no being ripped off for electricity charging
7. I can choose when and where I next fill up, usually leave it to get on reserve.
8. When I do fill up it’s straight to the pump and less than 5 minutes.
9. Good used car market
10. No £5,000-£15,000 bill out of the blue when the battery fails for no reason of use.
11. No crap residual value
12. No sudden shock when electric prices rise to a captive audience

Incredible isn't it

Edited to add.
If anyone knows of a 13th add it.

13. National power cuts (known as load shedding in South Africa) when the National Grid can’t supply enough power due to “wholesale” change to EV’s. This might sound like scaremongering but our future energy supply is not great. If we take renewables out of the equation, a few of our nuclear power stations are nearing the end of their life with new nuclear developments way behind where they should be.
OK we’re nothing like South Africa but we’re not looking great.

[lord trumpton]

As an aside to this thread topic I think the gradual take up of EV in both new and soon to bloom used segments, is affecting the used prices of the used ICE market.

The more people buy new and used EV, the less buyers there are for ICE (obviously) and I think this is currently a small component playing out in the used ICE market depreciation.

[BricktopST205]

Dave200 said:

Mine is privately owned. Nothing to do with salary sacrifice.

So it is even worse for you then as you are paying for the depreciation.

Just for arguments sake I bought a brand new GR86 last summer. In its first year it will lose 3-4k and will most likely be worth 26k at 3 years old. That works out at little over £200 a month in depreciation. Add £100 in fuel and it "costs" me £300 a month to run compared to an EV. At the end of it I have 26k in capital too.

I could have bought an MG4 trophy for a similar price and been well out of pocket by now. Most have lost 10-15k in their first year. By the time 3 years comes around I would be lucky to have 10k in my back pocket after selling.

[Evanivitch]

BricktopST205 said:

So it is even worse for you then as you are paying for the depreciation.

Just for arguments sake I bought a brand new GR86 last summer. In its first year it will lose 3-4k and will most likely be worth 26k at 3 years old. That works out at little over £200 a month in depreciation. Add £100 in fuel and it "costs" me £300 a month to run compared to an EV. At the end of it I have 26k in capital too.

I could have bought an MG4 trophy for a similar price and been well out of pocket by now. Most have lost 10-15k in their first year. By the time 3 years comes around I would be lucky to have 10k in my back pocket after selling.

A GR86 is a limited production car. Ask the first gen Yaris GR how their prices went when the new model was announced. Supply and demand.

Just like when EV supply was constrained there were people getting the same money back, or more, for 12-24 month old cars.

[plfrench]

Ankh87 said:

Point 12, electricity will go up in price suddenly as it already has done this. Many are £1000s in debt because of it. Some paying £300 per month for it. Basically my mortgage just for power.
Expect that to change once there's limited ICE available. Government needs to make money it's lost from fuel duty somehow. They aren't just going to go "oh well, I guess we'll just not think about all that billions we no longer get from this public".

Eh? Mine has come down since I had my EV - started at 10p/kWh and then dropped to 7p/kWh out of the blue last September. Household rate is only 22.6p/kWh too, so pretty reasonable.

Fuel duty losses could be compensated by excess renewable electricity sales to our interconnected neighbours (including Germany from 2028) by the this becomes a problem.

[plfrench]

GeneralBanter said:

GT9 said:

GeneralBanter said:

GeneralBanter said:

All I can say is I get 600+ miles on a tank, so fill up and know that:

1. For 2-3 weeks I can forget about it
2. There's no range anxiety
3. I don't have to plan trips around charging points
4. I don't have to wait in a queue or hang around mid journey while charging
5. I don't have to remember to charge at home
6. There's no being ripped off for electricity charging
7. I can choose when and where I next fill up, usually leave it to get on reserve.
8. When I do fill up it’s straight to the pump and less than 5 minutes.
9. Good used car market
10. No £5,000-£15,000 bill out of the blue when the battery fails for no reason of use.
11. No crap residual value
12. No sudden shock when electric prices rise to a captive audience

Incredible isn't it

Edited to add.
If anyone knows of a 13th add it.

Point 9, is a bit silly, that's simply a matter of time thing.
Point 10, low probability, mostly likely will have saved that in fuel by the time it happens, if it happens.
Point 11, hmm, ICEs are not immune to crap residuals, good luck trying the sell a leggy diesel in 5-10 years time.
Point 12, we have been a captive audience to fuel prices for a century, what's going to change? If anything, once renewable electricity becomes the norm, fossil fuels will be taxed punitively. Eventually, running an ICE will become a choice for those who want to pay handsomely for it, e-fuelled or otherwise.

You’d better hope the subsidies continue then so you don’t end up with the driving equivalent of a Betamax video player

Is it any wonder the government(s) had to mandate the transition

[Tony33]

BricktopST205 said:

Dave200 said:

Mine is privately owned. Nothing to do with salary sacrifice.

So it is even worse for you then as you are paying for the depreciation.

Just for arguments sake I bought a brand new GR86 last summer. In its first year it will lose 3-4k and will most likely be worth 26k at 3 years old. That works out at little over £200 a month in depreciation. Add £100 in fuel and it "costs" me £300 a month to run compared to an EV. At the end of it I have 26k in capital too.

I could have bought an MG4 trophy for a similar price and been well out of pocket by now. Most have lost 10-15k in their first year. By the time 3 years comes around I would be lucky to have 10k in my back pocket after selling.

You can lease/PCP cars without salary sacrifice you know. Let the finance company take the hit on depreciation is they get the residuals all wrong. No risk, the monthlies are the same and hand it back at the end of term.

[Muzzer79]

Boxster5 said:

GeneralBanter said:

GeneralBanter said:

All I can say is I get 600+ miles on a tank, so fill up and know that:

1. For 2-3 weeks I can forget about it
2. There's no range anxiety
3. I don't have to plan trips around charging points
4. I don't have to wait in a queue or hang around mid journey while charging
5. I don't have to remember to charge at home
6. There's no being ripped off for electricity charging
7. I can choose when and where I next fill up, usually leave it to get on reserve.
8. When I do fill up it’s straight to the pump and less than 5 minutes.
9. Good used car market
10. No £5,000-£15,000 bill out of the blue when the battery fails for no reason of use.
11. No crap residual value
12. No sudden shock when electric prices rise to a captive audience

Incredible isn't it

Edited to add.
If anyone knows of a 13th add it.

13. National power cuts (known as load shedding in South Africa) when the National Grid can’t supply enough power due to “wholesale” change to EV’s. This might sound like scaremongering but our future energy supply is not great. If we take renewables out of the equation, a few of our nuclear power stations are nearing the end of their life with new nuclear developments way behind where they should be.
OK we’re nothing like South Africa but we’re not looking great.

Have you been to South Africa?

Load shedding in SA is down to successive governments not investing in infrastructure to keep up with industrial demand after apartheid ended. Like on a massive scale, not investing.

We are nowhere near that here. Absolutely miles away and plenty of industry experts have said that the national grid is well equipped to deal with a ‘migration’ to EVs.

[Castrol for a knave]

Meeting with a client on south coast tomorrow. About 200 miles to their office.

In an i4

Enough to get there. They have chargers. Based on the kw, I should get about 100 miles while in meeting

Stop at on way back at Banbury to use the Tesla chargers, catch up on emails, spray my boots and away home 20 minutes later.