EVs... no one wants them!

[T_S_M]

wormus said:

clockworks said:

wormus said:

Hmmm so that 15 minutes on a supercharger we were talking about to get you 150 miles will kill your battery? Doesn’t sound as good as the 450-600 miles you’ll get from filling an ICE car with a tank of fuel in 5 minutes. At 80% battery capacity, I wonder what the range is? Surely it’s the equivalent of buying a second hand phone that can barely make it through the day on a single charge? Meanwhile an ICE will do 250k miles with the same range and fuel efficiency. Doesn’t sound much progress to me.

No doubt some angry, small man will be along in a moment to tell me I’m wrong.

I've owned plenty of cars in the past 45 years.
I've never had a petrol car that would do 450 miles on a tank. Some would barely do 300.
I think I've owned just one diesel car that was capable of 600 miles, driven with care.

My diesel discovery does 450-500 miles on a full tank.

So around £120 to do 500 miles (assuming 80L tank and £1.53/litre).

My E-tron (of a similar size to a Discovery) costs £12 to do the same miles charging up at home.

Admittedly, that doesn't include charging at public chargers but purely from a financial perspective the savings can't be ignored for the majority of people, NOT EVERYONE. That's before you get to the £500+/year tax on the Discovery and the cost of servicing etc.

ETA: Someone might correct my maths, but doing 15k miles a year, that works out to £3600 in fuel alone for a Discovery, vs £350 a year for the E-tron (charged up exclusively at home). An extra £3,000 a year in fuel alone!

Edited by T_S_M on Thursday 28th March 11:23

Edited by T_S_M on Thursday 28th March 11:25

[FWIW]

Ankh87 said:

I've found James May's view on BEVs rather interesting. I'm completely with him on the view of if it took 2 minutes to charge up 150 miles then more people would be fine with EVs but because it still takes an absolute age to charge up such a small amount.

https://youtu.be/vQY-VeA87cM?si=ihW9oByGPZFvDTJW

It doesn't take 'an age', but it's a moot point anyway; many people never (or rarely) need to charge away from home.

[Seasonal Hero]

FWIW said:

It doesn't take 'an age', but it's a moot point anyway; many people never (or rarely) need to charge away from home.

It seems that Ankh is another poster who goes looking for problems that don’t exist day to day for the vast majority of EV drivers.

[dmsims]

Thanks for that:

https://doctorsagainstdiesel.uk/

wormus said:

My diesel discovery does 450-500 miles on a full tank.

[Dave200]

Ankh87 said:

I've found James May's view on BEVs rather interesting. I'm completely with him on the view of if it took 2 minutes to charge up 150 miles then more people would be fine with EVs but because it still takes an absolute age to charge up such a small amount.


https://youtu.be/vQY-VeA87cM?si=ihW9oByGPZFvDTJW

I guess the measure of "an absolute age" is relative. On a supercharger my car takes about 10-15 minutes to add 150 miles, depending on various factors. Not as quick as a splash and dash, but hardly the end of the world or a dealbreaker.

[NDA]

FWIW said:

It doesn't take 'an age', but it's a moot point anyway; many people never (or rarely) need to charge away from home.

Also, a point rarely made, is that 'refuelling' is a very different habit with an EV.

With my petrol cars I generally drive to nearly empty and then fill to the brim.

With my EV it's never driven to empty and never charged to 100%. It's always sipping volts overnight and, on the rare occasions I would use a supercharger it's charged just enough to get me home or to the next charger. Could be 30 - 60% for example.

It would be once in a blue moon that you'd charge from 0 - 100% - if ever. Most charges, as above, are overnight or 15 minute quickies.

[Dave200]

FWIW said:

Ankh87 said:

I've found James May's view on BEVs rather interesting. I'm completely with him on the view of if it took 2 minutes to charge up 150 miles then more people would be fine with EVs but because it still takes an absolute age to charge up such a small amount.

https://youtu.be/vQY-VeA87cM?si=ihW9oByGPZFvDTJW

It doesn't take 'an age', but it's a moot point anyway; many people never (or rarely) need to charge away from home.

As a realworld example, I've probably done about 15-20 supercharger visits in 15,000 miles. Most were just a splash and dash type fillup to get me home on longer trips, so not the end of the world. Definitely not as convenient as filling up with petrol when I've needed it, but you'd need more than 15-20 petrol station trips in 15,000 miles in a ICE car. The beauty for me is that the car just deals with it when needed via the satnav. I put my destination in and it tells me where to stop if needed so that I get there without running out of juice.

[Rusty Old-Banger]

NDA said:

FWIW said:

It doesn't take 'an age', but it's a moot point anyway; many people never (or rarely) need to charge away from home.

Also, a point rarely made, is that 'refuelling' is a very different habit with an EV.

With my petrol cars I generally drive to nearly empty and then fill to the brim.

With my EV it's never driven to empty and never charged to 100%. It's always sipping volts overnight and, on the rare occasions I would use a supercharger it's charged just enough to get me home or to the next charger. Could be 30 - 60% for example.

It would be once in a blue moon that you'd charge from 0 - 100% - if ever. Most charges, as above, are overnight or 15 minute quickies.

Question from someone who's never driven anything more EV than a Prius... How come it doesn't get to 100% overnight? Is that just because it's "slower" than the superchargers, or can/do you set it to stop charging at say 95% because going to 100% is bad for the battery?

[Dave200]

wormus said:

clockworks said:

wormus said:

Hmmm so that 15 minutes on a supercharger we were talking about to get you 150 miles will kill your battery? Doesn’t sound as good as the 450-600 miles you’ll get from filling an ICE car with a tank of fuel in 5 minutes. At 80% battery capacity, I wonder what the range is? Surely it’s the equivalent of buying a second hand phone that can barely make it through the day on a single charge? Meanwhile an ICE will do 250k miles with the same range and fuel efficiency. Doesn’t sound much progress to me.

No doubt some angry, small man will be along in a moment to tell me I’m wrong.

I've owned plenty of cars in the past 45 years.
I've never had a petrol car that would do 450 miles on a tank. Some would barely do 300.
I think I've owned just one diesel car that was capable of 600 miles, driven with care.

My diesel discovery does 450-500 miles on a full tank.

So about 100 miles more than my EV. Not exactly a massive gamechanger.

[Seasonal Hero]

wormus said:

My diesel discovery does 450-500 miles on a full tank.

Wow. About 25 to the gallon. How impressive. Enjoy spending the money filling that up whilst also driving a vehicle known for its reliability problems.

[Dave200]

Rusty Old-Banger said:

NDA said:

FWIW said:

It doesn't take 'an age', but it's a moot point anyway; many people never (or rarely) need to charge away from home.

Also, a point rarely made, is that 'refuelling' is a very different habit with an EV.

With my petrol cars I generally drive to nearly empty and then fill to the brim.

With my EV it's never driven to empty and never charged to 100%. It's always sipping volts overnight and, on the rare occasions I would use a supercharger it's charged just enough to get me home or to the next charger. Could be 30 - 60% for example.

It would be once in a blue moon that you'd charge from 0 - 100% - if ever. Most charges, as above, are overnight or 15 minute quickies.

Question from someone who's never driven anything more EV than a Prius... How come it doesn't get to 100% overnight? Is that just because it's "slower" than the superchargers, or can/do you set it to stop charging at say 95% because going to 100% is bad for the battery?

You can just set the charging limit on the app to where you want the car to stop. I always have mine at 100% because I want it full when I need to use it, but others who look after their batteries more than me will typically limit to 80% in the app.

[Essarell]

Dave200 said:

So about 100 miles more than my EV. Not exactly a massive gamechanger.

can your EV carry several passengers plus a heavy payload and tow a trailer and still have meaningful range?

[NDA]

Rusty Old-Banger said:

Question from someone who's never driven anything more EV than a Prius... How come it doesn't get to 100% overnight? Is that just because it's "slower" than the superchargers, or can/do you set it to stop charging at say 95% because going to 100% is bad for the battery?

Already answered above.

For 'most' EV's, it is unwise to charge to 100% as batteries don't like being full - so it's recommended to only charge to 80% (which the car or the app can set) unless you're going to immediately go on a long trip. i.e. don't leave it for days at 100%. My MacBook is the same as it happens - it uses intelligent charging to only take it to 80% most of the time.

And yes, 80-100% takes much longer - as the battery fills beyond 80% charging slows down. Not noticeable overnight at home, but would be at a charger on the road.*

The newer Tesla batteries (and maybe other marques too) are a different technology and can be filled to 100% without damaging them.

• ETA It's quicker on a road trip to do a series of, say, 30-80% charges, than it would be to sit going from 10-100%. Charge enough to get you to the next charger rather than fully charge it.

Edited by NDA on Thursday 28th March 11:45

[Dave200]

Essarell said:

Dave200 said:

So about 100 miles more than my EV. Not exactly a massive gamechanger.

can your EV carry several passengers plus a heavy payload and tow a trailer and still have meaningful range?

I have no idea, but probably not. I'd assume that if the discovery was doing the same then the range would also fall quite considerably. If you're one of the small number of people doing that sort of thing regularly then you probably shouldn't buy an EV.

[Rusty Old-Banger]

NDA said:

Rusty Old-Banger said:

Question from someone who's never driven anything more EV than a Prius... How come it doesn't get to 100% overnight? Is that just because it's "slower" than the superchargers, or can/do you set it to stop charging at say 95% because going to 100% is bad for the battery?

Already answered above.

For 'most' EV's, it is unwise to charge to 100% as batteries don't like being full - so it's recommended to only charge to 80% (which the car or the app can set) unless you're going to immediately go on a long trip. i.e. don't leave it for days at 100%. My MacBook is the same as it happens - it uses intelligent charging to only take it to 80% most of the time.

And yes, 80-100% takes much longer - as the battery fills beyond 80% charging slows down. Not noticeable overnight at home, but would be at a charger on the road.

The newer Tesla batteries (and maybe other marques too) are a different technology and can be filled to 100% without damaging them.

Thanks - so, as you say, very much like a modern laptop or my phone - it will charge to reasonably full, and then stop until just before the alarm is due to go off and then tops itself up to 100% for the day - which keeps the battery in good health (my phone is 7 years old now and still easily lasts all day without topping up the charge).

[Essarell]

Dave200 said:

Essarell said:

Dave200 said:

So about 100 miles more than my EV. Not exactly a massive gamechanger.

can your EV carry several passengers plus a heavy payload and tow a trailer and still have meaningful range?

I have no idea, but probably not. I'd assume that if the discovery was doing the same then the range would also fall quite considerably. If you're one of the small number of people doing that sort of thing regularly then you probably shouldn't buy an EV.

just spend a moment of your time out on the UK's roads, especially this impending bank holiday, my example is far from rare. In fact most vehicles will be loaded to the roofbox. I guess that's different though?

I have good insurance, not because i need it every day but because that once in blue moon time its needed it doesn't let me down, motorists feel the same way re EV, the thought of ending up stranded in a vehicle that in all likely hood will need (expensively) recovered is obviously a major concern. Still it's a PR problem apparently........

[Seasonal Hero]

And yet every single time you get into any car you may be ‘stranded’.

None of the people I know with EV’s have ever been stranded. Are you seeing lots of them on your 500 mile drives with 7 adults, a trailer and a roof box?

[Dave200]

Essarell said:

Dave200 said:

Essarell said:

Dave200 said:

So about 100 miles more than my EV. Not exactly a massive gamechanger.

can your EV carry several passengers plus a heavy payload and tow a trailer and still have meaningful range?

I have no idea, but probably not. I'd assume that if the discovery was doing the same then the range would also fall quite considerably. If you're one of the small number of people doing that sort of thing regularly then you probably shouldn't buy an EV.

just spend a moment of your time out on the UK's roads, especially this impending bank holiday, my example is far from rare. In fact most vehicles will be loaded to the roofbox. I guess that's different though?

I have good insurance, not because i need it every day but because that once in blue moon time its needed it doesn't let me down, motorists feel the same way re EV, the thought of ending up stranded in a vehicle that in all likely hood will need (expensively) recovered is obviously a major concern. Still it's a PR problem apparently........

I have to say that your concerns don't really reflect what I've experienced in 2 years and 15,000 miles. I've never been close to being stranded, and even my car-allergic wife has managed to use it regularly without running out of juice. Those miles have included times where we've had 4 plus luggage in the car but never a roofbox or bikes etc.

[NDA]

Rusty Old-Banger said:

NDA said:

Rusty Old-Banger said:

Question from someone who's never driven anything more EV than a Prius... How come it doesn't get to 100% overnight? Is that just because it's "slower" than the superchargers, or can/do you set it to stop charging at say 95% because going to 100% is bad for the battery?

Already answered above.

For 'most' EV's, it is unwise to charge to 100% as batteries don't like being full - so it's recommended to only charge to 80% (which the car or the app can set) unless you're going to immediately go on a long trip. i.e. don't leave it for days at 100%. My MacBook is the same as it happens - it uses intelligent charging to only take it to 80% most of the time.

And yes, 80-100% takes much longer - as the battery fills beyond 80% charging slows down. Not noticeable overnight at home, but would be at a charger on the road.

The newer Tesla batteries (and maybe other marques too) are a different technology and can be filled to 100% without damaging them.

Thanks - so, as you say, very much like a modern laptop or my phone - it will charge to reasonably full, and then stop until just before the alarm is due to go off and then tops itself up to 100% for the day - which keeps the battery in good health (my phone is 7 years old now and still easily lasts all day without topping up the charge).

Not quite... the owner sets the limit manually, either in the car or on the app. The car (at least not a Tesla) doesn't decide what the limit is - you do. Mine is set for 80% for most of the time as that's all I need.

It's also worth mentioning that Tesla's (and other EV's) have extremely sophisticated battery management systems, unlike phones and laptops. So the batteries should be good for 1,500 cycles - which is a huge mileage.

But your point is right, keeping a battery in good health involves not supercharging it a lot and not charging to 100% unless absolutely necessary.

[TheRainMaker]

Essarell said:

just spend a moment of your time out on the UK's roads, especially this impending bank holiday, my example is far from rare. In fact most vehicles will be loaded to the roofbox. I guess that's different though?

Roof boxes you say

Can't see them working with EVs