EVs... no one wants them!
Discussion
Boringvolvodriver said:
As someone who is sceptical about EVs, due to the cost (at present), potential range issues (getting better), infrastructure (again getting better) and the fact they are perhaps not as environmentally friendly as claimed, then to judge without having tried one, is difficult.
However, having spent 4 days driving 600 plus miles in Iceland in a Mitsubishi PHEV, I am perhaps less sceptical. Yes the electric bit only gave 30kms and I only charged it up whilst driving to use later, the power delivery was impressive. The regenerative braking was rather good as well!
I still think that the best option, if we are to get rid of ICE, is to have hybrids with a bigger battery and smaller petrol engine effectively acting as a generator.
I believe this is the principle of the latest Nissan E-Powers and Renaults etc.However, having spent 4 days driving 600 plus miles in Iceland in a Mitsubishi PHEV, I am perhaps less sceptical. Yes the electric bit only gave 30kms and I only charged it up whilst driving to use later, the power delivery was impressive. The regenerative braking was rather good as well!
I still think that the best option, if we are to get rid of ICE, is to have hybrids with a bigger battery and smaller petrol engine effectively acting as a generator.
wormus said:
What you describe is the Chevrolet Volt. 2010-2019. Ahead of its time imho.
The Volt/Ampera seems like a cracking option for a cheapskate who wants a car mostly for short-ish trips but with the ability to do 200+ miles and then fill up at a petrol station.These things will still be viable cars when their batteries on on their last legs, unlike a Leaf which will eventually not do the job.If only we could get straight answers to the question 'how many mpg on a long run?'
An i3 REx and a jerry can is still tempting though!
CABC said:
if it was the Outlander that's a tax dodge car and a fail at so many levels.
for the future, petrol generator yes, but not drivetrain. I feel governments haven't helped the transition by promoting (poor) hybrids and not the infrastructure.
It was an Eclipse Cross - the point was that don’t knock it until you have tried it and my mind is not as closed to EVs as I was before!for the future, petrol generator yes, but not drivetrain. I feel governments haven't helped the transition by promoting (poor) hybrids and not the infrastructure.
Dave200 said:
I still use petrol stations for my other cars and I've started to get quite resentful of the faff, the queueing and handling dirty pump handles. Not to mention the cost.
This is a big negative of ICE cars for me. Never used to think about it because I had no choice. But recently I went to pay and had to queue behind someone doing their week's food shopping, and buying a Costa-Machine-Latte for him and his mate. Oh, and then some of that cancer stuff from behind the secret doors behind the assistant as well. Nasty experience. Then getting back in my car being watched by the driver now queueing behind mine, itching for me to start and go. Yes, I'd like to avoid all of that.Boringvolvodriver said:
As someone who is sceptical about EVs, due to the cost (at present), potential range issues (getting better), infrastructure (again getting better) and the fact they are perhaps not as environmentally friendly as claimed, then to judge without having tried one, is difficult.
However, having spent 4 days driving 600 plus miles in Iceland in a Mitsubishi PHEV, I am perhaps less sceptical. Yes the electric bit only gave 30kms and I only charged it up whilst driving to use later, the power delivery was impressive. The regenerative braking was rather good as well!
I still think that the best option, if we are to get rid of ICE, is to have hybrids with a bigger battery and smaller petrol engine effectively acting as a generator.
Well, maybe I can shed some light. However, having spent 4 days driving 600 plus miles in Iceland in a Mitsubishi PHEV, I am perhaps less sceptical. Yes the electric bit only gave 30kms and I only charged it up whilst driving to use later, the power delivery was impressive. The regenerative braking was rather good as well!
I still think that the best option, if we are to get rid of ICE, is to have hybrids with a bigger battery and smaller petrol engine effectively acting as a generator.
Countless studies, trials, etc. have already been done to try to find the hybrid 'sweet spot' to cover the majority of usage cases whilst also achieving a substantially lower lifetime carbon footprint.
The underlying findings from these almost always push the battery capacity up to the point where you are left with the fairly simple choice of retaining the engine/generator system and its tank, exhaust, etc. vs just adding more capacity to the battery to go full EV.
Eliminating the hybrid element massively reduces the packaging and engineering constraints, and with the knowledge of the expected trajectory for future battery technology, it is very rare that the engineering team will come to the conclusion that hybridisation is the endgame.
I've said this many times, electrification is a trajectory based on a pathway that will take decades to come to full fruition. The stages of that pathway are pretty well understood and there are no insurmountable engineering/supply chain issues that say it can't be done.
That doesn't mean it's not a rocky path with the potential for slip-ups along the way.
It is however, a far more realistic and achievable pathway than any of the others, and for many geographical regions, including the UK, the only pathway that delivers any significant decarbonisation in a meaningful timeframe.
What no one is seemingly being tasked with is winning the hearts and minds of car drivers and owners.
Much of that is being left to its own devices, leading inevitably to confusion/concern/misunderstanding.
t agenda objective is utter horses
CABC said:
if it was the Outlander that's a tax dodge car and a fail at so many levels.
for the future, petrol generator yes, but not drivetrain. I feel governments haven't helped the transition by promoting (poor) hybrids and not the infrastructure.
Poor infrastructure I agree. I do 400 to 600 mile a week and could charge at home but I own a non charge Hybrid, I cant charge it as it works hand in hand with the engine. However I get 50-58 MPG with a 2 liter petrol engine, 400 miles for around £ 50. Hybrids are good so I don't agree with your poor hybrid statement.for the future, petrol generator yes, but not drivetrain. I feel governments haven't helped the transition by promoting (poor) hybrids and not the infrastructure.
When I change in a year or several, as I plan on keeping this car for a while, ill look at Electric or keep the tech I am used too.
https://youtu.be/9WmT72c8YMQ?si=K8yRo04FMDtn-caK
Looks like Shell are making their move now. Seems I'm not the only one who is thinking that the Government are going to tax us more on our home electric to make up the deficit.
As I've mentioned, if you've got a home charger and your BEV is sending out information. Then it could send it to the Government and electricity companies to state there was 3 hours of EV charges so you pay more.
I'm sure we'll find out soon enough and see what they do decide.
Looks like Shell are making their move now. Seems I'm not the only one who is thinking that the Government are going to tax us more on our home electric to make up the deficit.
As I've mentioned, if you've got a home charger and your BEV is sending out information. Then it could send it to the Government and electricity companies to state there was 3 hours of EV charges so you pay more.
I'm sure we'll find out soon enough and see what they do decide.
Ankh87 said:
https://youtu.be/9WmT72c8YMQ?si=K8yRo04FMDtn-caK
Looks like Shell are making their move now. Seems I'm not the only one who is thinking that the Government are going to tax us more on our home electric to make up the deficit.
As I've mentioned, if you've got a home charger and your BEV is sending out information. Then it could send it to the Government and electricity companies to state there was 3 hours of EV charges so you pay more.
I'm sure we'll find out soon enough and see what they do decide.
I'm currently paying a tenner for 350 miles. That feels too cheap, not that I'm complaining. But even if it was double that I'd still not grumble too much.Looks like Shell are making their move now. Seems I'm not the only one who is thinking that the Government are going to tax us more on our home electric to make up the deficit.
As I've mentioned, if you've got a home charger and your BEV is sending out information. Then it could send it to the Government and electricity companies to state there was 3 hours of EV charges so you pay more.
I'm sure we'll find out soon enough and see what they do decide.
Dave200 said:
I'm currently paying a tenner for 350 miles. That feels too cheap, not that I'm complaining. But even if it was double that I'd still not grumble too much.
Now this is where I start to struggle with the maths - say it went up to £20 compared to say approx £60 for a petrol car doing 40 mpg ish that is a saving of £40 per 350 miles. So on 10000 miles a year a saving of £1150 (if my brain is working).A new Golf can be had for let’s say £27,000 whilst an ID3 is £36,000 - not allowing for depreciation it will take 8 years to recoup the extra cost.
I admit I don’t know whether the serving costs are lower (I would expect them to be?) but the price differential has to come down to encourage people like me to purchase an electric car.
tamore said:
and it will. said it somewhere else, but LFP batteries by CATL are expected to hit $56 kWh this year.
EVs don't fit everyone right now for a myriad of reasons. those reasons will be knocked over one by one rapidly over the next few years. no rush.
Yeah, it's very much 'watch this space' in terms of the historical 30%+ pricing differentials. If manufacturers can buy a 65kwh battery pack at circa $3,500 at the cell level, there is no need for that car to be costing £30k retail, even accounting for VAT and import duty.EVs don't fit everyone right now for a myriad of reasons. those reasons will be knocked over one by one rapidly over the next few years. no rush.
No this again 
Slower, smaller, less economical
and you are going to add more equipment to get near the ID3 Match
e.g. Matrix headlights, rear camera
Slower, smaller, less economical
and you are going to add more equipment to get near the ID3 Match
e.g. Matrix headlights, rear camera
Boringvolvodriver said:
A new Golf can be had for let’s say £27,000 whilst an ID3 is £36,000 - not allowing for depreciation it will take 8 years to recoup the extra cost.
clockworks said:
I've owned plenty of cars in the past 45 years.
I've never had a petrol car that would do 450 miles on a tank. Some would barely do 300.
I think I've owned just one diesel car that was capable of 600 miles, driven with care.
Mine does 650 miles on a tank if I stick at 70-75mph, perhaps a bit more if averaging 65.I've never had a petrol car that would do 450 miles on a tank. Some would barely do 300.
I think I've owned just one diesel car that was capable of 600 miles, driven with care.
Seat Exeo diesel estate (2.0 Sport-Tech though!!)
Bought it 3 years ago when my commute changed to an 80 mile/day round trip on motorways and d/c's. The mpg fitted the bill far better than the car it replaced & being an estate can accommodate our 3 dogs in the back when needed.
Only posting to mention that a few diesel cars are capable of 600miles+ on a tank without needing to do 56mph in the inside lane.
No issue with EV's, would have one in a second but in my case it comes down to finances - overall cost rather than charging/re-fuelling alone.
Someone above said they had an Audi E-tron - assume SUV as mentioned similar size to a Discovery. No idea on outright cost or lease but say the latter is £400/month - over 3 years = c. £15K
The Audi a new car with all the bells and whistles whereas my Seat was already 8 years old when I bought it.
Plus point is it cost £4K to buy outright, and have spent c. £1,500 in the last 3 years on consumables/servicing while adding 50K miles.
Strangely, due to the rise in second-hand car prices and scarcity of estates in that price range, I could probably sell it for around £3K tomorrow even with the additional mileage looking at similar vehicles on Autotrader.
Might be more expensive to run my car than a new Etron when judged on refuelling costs alone, but like most folks I couldn't stretch to and/or justify spending £XXX/month to lease a brand new EV with my equivalent size/ load capacity requirements for number of family/dogs.
Likely the same for many others - leasing costs are very substantial for a new EV SUV/estate whereas my much older car gets me to the same place and has so far cost around £2.5K net (including potential re-sale value) for 50K miles over 3 years of ownership.
I would also add that despite having a car capable of 650 miles on a tank, the most I've ever done non-stop was Essex to Penzance in the early hours - 350 miles in around 5 and a half hours.
That was more than enough, the argument that being able to do 750 miles with only one 5 min fuel stop as a benefit over EV's taking 30 mins to re-charge is laughable.
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