EVs... no one wants them!
Discussion
monkfish1 said:
CivicDuties said:
Yes, but more slowly, giving us more time to work out the final answers to stopping it happening.
You seriously believe it can be "stopped" ?TheBinarySheep said:
16% of new vehicle sales last year would disagree with you.
I'd say the fact that adoption share has stalled at that low percentage for the last 2+ years does anything but disagree, given the massive incentives to push people towards them, take away those and there wouldn't be a market worth talking about.That % share is nothing to crow about, Porsche EV share dropped by 50% in Q1 to only 5.6% of sales, they are running out of people with an incentive to rent one, you're not going to drive wider adoption with a closed shop incentive scheme.
Wills2 said:
I'd say the fact that adoption share has stalled at that low percentage for the last 2+ years does anything but disagree, given the massive incentives to push people towards them, take away those and there wouldn't be a market worth talking about.
That % share is nothing to crow about, Porsche EV share dropped by 50% in Q1 to only 5.6% of sales, they are running out of people with an incentive to rent one, you're not going to drive wider adoption with a closed shop incentive scheme.
It's difficult to look an individual years and come to a conclusion from that. 2023 was an interesting year what with interest rates increasing etc.That % share is nothing to crow about, Porsche EV share dropped by 50% in Q1 to only 5.6% of sales, they are running out of people with an incentive to rent one, you're not going to drive wider adoption with a closed shop incentive scheme.
In 2016 EV sales accounted for 0.6% of sales, in 2023 it was 16-18% depending on where you look. If in three years time we're still seeing EVs accounting for 16-18% of sales, then I'd agree with you, but it's too early to tell.
If you wanted to go finer, I could argue that EV sales in January were up 20% on last year, or that February sales were up 14% on last year, although March was 11% down.
It's like my Stocks and Shares ISA, some years its up, some years it's down, but over a longer period there's an upward trajectory.
Personally, and this is just a hunch, I reckon EV's could be 1/5th of sales in 2024.
Ankh87 said:
Muzzer79 said:
Ankh87 said:
Muzzer79 said:
Don't waste your breath
PH is full of people who drive for hours and hours, every day, without a break.
They all need cars that will do 400 or 500 miles because they're doing that regularly.
I'd love to know where all these people are going. They must have a hell of a commute.
I think it's the fact that when you do stop, you can just stop any where for a break. You don't need to stop and take a break at a specific location. So if you are happy to drive 4 hours without stopping, then you can do. PH is full of people who drive for hours and hours, every day, without a break.
They all need cars that will do 400 or 500 miles because they're doing that regularly.
I'd love to know where all these people are going. They must have a hell of a commute.
You don't need to think that I must stop off at X location which could be actually off your route. You could just pull over on a B road layby, go for the splash behind the bush. Put rubbish in the bin. Carry on the journey in a matter of minutes. No need to wait another X amount of charge to be sure you can carry on your journey. No need to worry if you might be waiting for a charger or even if they are working.
The point is that where are all these people going on these 400 mile journeys that they're doing so regularly as to necessitate a car that has that range?
I drive to locations as part of my job - 15-20k miles a year. My longest journey that I can recall - business or personal - is something like 125 miles each way, taking 2 - 2.5 hours each way.
I take the EV, which has the range for it but I give it a small (safety) top up when I get to the office, then I do my business and drive home.
So if you do need to do that trip, you're not having to stress about having to either find a charger before you go home or charge up on the way home.
The 400 miles range is more than enough to that trip at a moments notice, knowing you'll be home that evening.
I would like to add that a lot of people are doing Staycations these days. Lots of people from the middle of England go to Cornwall or even go to Norfolk. There's also no guarantee that there's a charger you can use when you get there. So if you can get to your holiday destination without charging, then take your time on the way home. Most would be happy with that. Yes it's a pain having to charge up on the way home but it's a lesser cost than having to use a public charger 2-4 times which is another thing to factor in.
Firstly - the Birmingham to London example.
A trip from central Birmingham to Central London is 240 miles round trip. Easily do-able in a reasonable-spec EV range-wise
Under what circumstances would you need to do it twice in a day?
As for Staycations, I still can't get my head around writing off the proposition of a type of car based on the fact that you need to take it on holiday once or twice a year.
It's like buying a minibus because you give your family a lift to the airport for their annual holidays. Or buying a pick-up truck because you're going to the tip.
Even then, from Birmingham, Cornwall is about 250 miles, Norfolk is about 160 miles - again, easily do-able in a reasonable-range EV.
Using your criteria of charging on the way home being fine as long as you can get there in one go - an EV works?
TheBinarySheep said:
Wills2 said:
I'd say the fact that adoption share has stalled at that low percentage for the last 2+ years does anything but disagree, given the massive incentives to push people towards them, take away those and there wouldn't be a market worth talking about.
That % share is nothing to crow about, Porsche EV share dropped by 50% in Q1 to only 5.6% of sales, they are running out of people with an incentive to rent one, you're not going to drive wider adoption with a closed shop incentive scheme.
It's difficult to look an individual years and come to a conclusion from that. 2023 was an interesting year what with interest rates increasing etc.That % share is nothing to crow about, Porsche EV share dropped by 50% in Q1 to only 5.6% of sales, they are running out of people with an incentive to rent one, you're not going to drive wider adoption with a closed shop incentive scheme.
In 2016 EV sales accounted for 0.6% of sales, in 2023 it was 16-18% depending on where you look. If in three years time we're still seeing EVs accounting for 16-18% of sales, then I'd agree with you, but it's too early to tell.
If you wanted to go finer, I could argue that EV sales in January were up 20% on last year, or that February sales were up 14% on last year, although March was 11% down.
It's like my Stocks and Shares ISA, some years its up, some years it's down, but over a longer period there's an upward trajectory.
Personally, and this is just a hunch, I reckon EV's could be 1/5th of sales in 2024.
In the first 3 months of this year all car sales were up, EV share of that market was up by less than 1%. A lot of pre-registered stuff around as well, presumably because the dealers wanted to hit rebate targets set by the manufacturers.
@Muzzer
Just out of interest what would you call a reasonable spec EV wise.
Regular trip Home -Heathrow T5 240 miles round trip.
Outward setting off 4am Monday 7am dep ish
Return flight landing Friday late say 22:00 ish.
Every second week.
Estate car, departing Monday with full charge.
Or is expecting to do that 2 hr each way with little fuss unreasonable?
Go. Suggestions.
Just out of interest what would you call a reasonable spec EV wise.
Regular trip Home -Heathrow T5 240 miles round trip.
Outward setting off 4am Monday 7am dep ish
Return flight landing Friday late say 22:00 ish.
Every second week.
Estate car, departing Monday with full charge.
Or is expecting to do that 2 hr each way with little fuss unreasonable?
Go. Suggestions.
Muzzer79 said:
I'm going to have to flag this up again
Firstly - the Birmingham to London example.
A trip from central Birmingham to Central London is 240 miles round trip. Easily do-able in a reasonable-spec EV range-wise
In terms of EVs and transport policy, I'm not sure that the ease of long car journeys between city centres (or to Romania) will ever be a strong policy priority anyway - they really don't want you to make journeys like central Brum to central London by car. It's a bit like the problem of mass car ownership in dense urban areas being harder to do with electric - the thing which is difficult to do is considered problematic in itself.Firstly - the Birmingham to London example.
A trip from central Birmingham to Central London is 240 miles round trip. Easily do-able in a reasonable-spec EV range-wise
FiF said:
@Muzzer
Just out of interest what would you call a reasonable spec EV wise.
Regular trip Home -Heathrow T5 240 miles round trip.
Outward setting off 4am Monday 7am dep ish
Return flight landing Friday late say 22:00 ish.
Every second week.
Estate car, departing Monday with full charge.
Or is expecting to do that 2 hr each way with little fuss unreasonable?
Go. Suggestions.
KIA EV6Just out of interest what would you call a reasonable spec EV wise.
Regular trip Home -Heathrow T5 240 miles round trip.
Outward setting off 4am Monday 7am dep ish
Return flight landing Friday late say 22:00 ish.
Every second week.
Estate car, departing Monday with full charge.
Or is expecting to do that 2 hr each way with little fuss unreasonable?
Go. Suggestions.
https://www.whatcar.com/news/kia-ev6-long-term-tes...
"Although it didn’t manage to average the 300 miles plus that I’d been hoping for, the EV6’s range of around 280 miles was still more than enough for all of my everyday use, with each full charge seeming to last for an incredibly long time."
Edited by T_S_M on Thursday 2nd May 11:24
@Muzzer
It's about convenience though isn't it. If your car cannot even do the mileage then that means you have to find an alternative to which is an extra cost. So if you're having to stop multiple times to charge up because your destination does not have any EV charging, then that's an extra cost isn't it.
So yes you wouldn't buy a minibus because of that 1 trip a year but that isn't the point here. The point I'm making is that you're replacing your existing vehicle that is working perfectly well all year round for what you need, with another vehicle that doesn't work all year round for what you need. See it in your example of you currently owning a Golf and then your replacing it with it with a Micra. 99% of the time it'll be fine but then the 1% of the other time you need to source an alternative. OR You just keep the Golf.
End of the day people pay for convenience and what their time is worth. So if like me you spend maybe 10 minutes a month max at a fueling station compared to having to go use a public charger due to no home charging, its not really worth it is it in the end?
It's about convenience though isn't it. If your car cannot even do the mileage then that means you have to find an alternative to which is an extra cost. So if you're having to stop multiple times to charge up because your destination does not have any EV charging, then that's an extra cost isn't it.
So yes you wouldn't buy a minibus because of that 1 trip a year but that isn't the point here. The point I'm making is that you're replacing your existing vehicle that is working perfectly well all year round for what you need, with another vehicle that doesn't work all year round for what you need. See it in your example of you currently owning a Golf and then your replacing it with it with a Micra. 99% of the time it'll be fine but then the 1% of the other time you need to source an alternative. OR You just keep the Golf.
End of the day people pay for convenience and what their time is worth. So if like me you spend maybe 10 minutes a month max at a fueling station compared to having to go use a public charger due to no home charging, its not really worth it is it in the end?
Ankh87 said:
@Muzzer
.... if like me you spend maybe 10 minutes a month max at a fueling station compared to having to go use a public charger due to no home charging, its not really worth it is it in the end?
It's not..... if like me you spend maybe 10 minutes a month max at a fueling station compared to having to go use a public charger due to no home charging, its not really worth it is it in the end?
As has been said on here many times, if you can't charge overnight at home, an EV doesn't really work. One of the major advantages, if not the number one advantage, is having a fully charged car every morning.
I like my EV (and my ICE) cars, but if I couldn't charge at home, I doubt I'd have one.
FiF said:
T_S_M said:
KIA EV6
Fail. Read the question, estate car.Ankh87 said:
@Muzzer
It's about convenience though isn't it. If your car cannot even do the mileage then that means you have to find an alternative to which is an extra cost. So if you're having to stop multiple times to charge up because your destination does not have any EV charging, then that's an extra cost isn't it.
So yes you wouldn't buy a minibus because of that 1 trip a year but that isn't the point here. The point I'm making is that you're replacing your existing vehicle that is working perfectly well all year round for what you need, with another vehicle that doesn't work all year round for what you need. See it in your example of you currently owning a Golf and then your replacing it with it with a Micra. 99% of the time it'll be fine but then the 1% of the other time you need to source an alternative. OR You just keep the Golf.
End of the day people pay for convenience and what their time is worth. So if like me you spend maybe 10 minutes a month max at a fueling station compared to having to go use a public charger due to no home charging, its not really worth it is it in the end?
You are suggesting not replacing your vehicle with one which works better 95% (in my case 98%) of the time and which is less good but still very useable for the remaining 5%It's about convenience though isn't it. If your car cannot even do the mileage then that means you have to find an alternative to which is an extra cost. So if you're having to stop multiple times to charge up because your destination does not have any EV charging, then that's an extra cost isn't it.
So yes you wouldn't buy a minibus because of that 1 trip a year but that isn't the point here. The point I'm making is that you're replacing your existing vehicle that is working perfectly well all year round for what you need, with another vehicle that doesn't work all year round for what you need. See it in your example of you currently owning a Golf and then your replacing it with it with a Micra. 99% of the time it'll be fine but then the 1% of the other time you need to source an alternative. OR You just keep the Golf.
End of the day people pay for convenience and what their time is worth. So if like me you spend maybe 10 minutes a month max at a fueling station compared to having to go use a public charger due to no home charging, its not really worth it is it in the end?
That’s not logical and suggests that you are making your decision based not on logic but prejudice, ie for some reason that you haven’t stated you just don’t like EVs).
Thats fine by the way just to not like them but be up front and say so rather than constructing ever more convoluted argents to justify your decision.
Objectively the only rational reasons not to switch to EV are:
1) You regularly (ie not just a few times per year) do long distances and feel the public recharging would be too burdensome/ costly
2) You don’t have any home charging
3) You can’t afford one.
(Even (2) is moot as there are a lot of people who do low mileages such that a once a week visit to a charger wouldn’t be a big deal even if it reduces the cost advantage a lot. There are plenty of people round here that I see doing a relatively cheap weekly charge on a public AC charger near their home as they don’t have their own charger. If a once a week charge is say 200 miles that’s 10,000 miles a year remember, way more than the national average, and slow charging to 100% is fine in this context.)
Pretty much everything else is just made up.
Edited by 740EVTORQUES on Thursday 2nd May 11:46
otolith said:
If you want an estate in order to have a bit less boot space than the Kia, there is the MG5 estate, but that only has a 250 mile official range so real world won't do the round trip without a top-up. There are parking services at T5 which will hand your electric car back fully charged, though.
Model Y is HUGE for internal space. That would work I'd wager. Unless there's a specific reason for an estate that I've missed.
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