Are plug-in hybrids worth considering?
Discussion
Currently run 2 cars, around 8k miles a year between them. Thinking about swapping for one "do everything" car.
I have looked at fully-electric cars, but really can't see anything in budget (£30k) new or secondhand, that appeals. Either the winter range is a bit iffy, the car is too big, the tech is flaky and/or just plain dangerous, or the price is just too high compared to the ICE equivalent. Only found 3 potential candidates - Cupra Born, Kia Niro and MG4. Negatives to all of them.
There seems to be more choice if I look at plug-in Hybrids, but is the extra weight and cost worth it?
Looking for a small SUV type car, fast enough for rapid and safe overtakes, that's comfy and at least as well-equipped as my Picanto GT-S and C3 Aircross Shine Plus.
Semi-rural driving, mostly short trips to visit customers or the local towns. Most days it would be 40 miles maximum, but a couple of times a month I need 120 miles. Presumably a decent hybrid would cope with electric only for 30 miles on A and B roads at 50/60mph, as long as I remembered to plug it in?
Would I save enough to make it worth the hassle?
One reason for looking at plug-in hybrids over pure ICE versions is they tend to be a fair bit faster when the need arises, adding the electric motor to the normal petrol engine. Versions that only have 120 to 150bhp in ICE format often have 220+bhp hybrid equivalents. One version of the 3008 has 300bhp from 2 electric motors and the 1.6 petrol engine.
Or do I just go for something from VW, with the 300bhp 2 litre petrol, like a T Roc?
I have looked at fully-electric cars, but really can't see anything in budget (£30k) new or secondhand, that appeals. Either the winter range is a bit iffy, the car is too big, the tech is flaky and/or just plain dangerous, or the price is just too high compared to the ICE equivalent. Only found 3 potential candidates - Cupra Born, Kia Niro and MG4. Negatives to all of them.
There seems to be more choice if I look at plug-in Hybrids, but is the extra weight and cost worth it?
Looking for a small SUV type car, fast enough for rapid and safe overtakes, that's comfy and at least as well-equipped as my Picanto GT-S and C3 Aircross Shine Plus.
Semi-rural driving, mostly short trips to visit customers or the local towns. Most days it would be 40 miles maximum, but a couple of times a month I need 120 miles. Presumably a decent hybrid would cope with electric only for 30 miles on A and B roads at 50/60mph, as long as I remembered to plug it in?
Would I save enough to make it worth the hassle?
One reason for looking at plug-in hybrids over pure ICE versions is they tend to be a fair bit faster when the need arises, adding the electric motor to the normal petrol engine. Versions that only have 120 to 150bhp in ICE format often have 220+bhp hybrid equivalents. One version of the 3008 has 300bhp from 2 electric motors and the 1.6 petrol engine.
Or do I just go for something from VW, with the 300bhp 2 litre petrol, like a T Roc?
I'd say your usage is a bit too much to get the most out of a PHEV but you could do the maths.
If you're normal routine keeps you on EV (e.g. under 20 miles between opportunities to charge) then a PHEV can be the best of both worlds - EV for normal use but then none of the hassle on long journeys.
If you're doing 40 miles then 10-20 of those will be on petrol. The electric miles could be under 5p/mile in "fuel' cost, but the petrol ones will be more like 15p/mile.
If you're normal routine keeps you on EV (e.g. under 20 miles between opportunities to charge) then a PHEV can be the best of both worlds - EV for normal use but then none of the hassle on long journeys.
If you're doing 40 miles then 10-20 of those will be on petrol. The electric miles could be under 5p/mile in "fuel' cost, but the petrol ones will be more like 15p/mile.
I think they make sense.
I have been thinking about a mid size SUV for my wife recently to replace her 2016 Astra.
She likes her Astra and all the equipment it has so the Grandland X in at least Elite Nav spec seems the sensible next car for her.
They come in 1.5D, 1.2T petrol (both have 130bhp) or a 1.6T PHEV which has 300bhp.
I think the PHEV would be nice to have but the thing that puts me off is warranty. A lot of the cars for sale only come with short, non-manufacturer backed warranties.
On something with expensive batteries, e-motors and all the other hybrid gubbins I think I'd want a manufacturer backed warranty of at least a year and ideally 2 years. The option to renew the warranty at the end would also be good like you can with BMW.
I have been thinking about a mid size SUV for my wife recently to replace her 2016 Astra.
She likes her Astra and all the equipment it has so the Grandland X in at least Elite Nav spec seems the sensible next car for her.
They come in 1.5D, 1.2T petrol (both have 130bhp) or a 1.6T PHEV which has 300bhp.
I think the PHEV would be nice to have but the thing that puts me off is warranty. A lot of the cars for sale only come with short, non-manufacturer backed warranties.
On something with expensive batteries, e-motors and all the other hybrid gubbins I think I'd want a manufacturer backed warranty of at least a year and ideally 2 years. The option to renew the warranty at the end would also be good like you can with BMW.
An electric Niro would be fine, but it would have to be the current model, which is over budget. The earlier model, I just don't like the way it looks.
I was looking at the specs of the Sportage PHEV, and noticed that the top trim levels are subject to the over £40k road tax, which would wipe out any likely fuel savings. Not a problem with BEVs, no "luxury" car tax.
The Stellantis 300bhp hybrid platform looks like a decent option, I'll have to see which ones came in at under £40k list
I was looking at the specs of the Sportage PHEV, and noticed that the top trim levels are subject to the over £40k road tax, which would wipe out any likely fuel savings. Not a problem with BEVs, no "luxury" car tax.
The Stellantis 300bhp hybrid platform looks like a decent option, I'll have to see which ones came in at under £40k list
We thought they made sense enough to buy one, for similar reasons that you are considering them. They're not all created equal so caveats apply but our reasoning was:
The weight thing seems a bit misleading - they're heavier than regular ICE cars, but about the same weight as the equivalent EV. So whilst you might be carrying the weight of an engine and a battery around, it's a much smaller and lighter battery than an EV, so works out about the same.
Our PHEV has a claimed range of 48 miles, which on fast A roads in ideal conditions (now with warmish days so little heating or A/C) that translates to 42 miles. I'm expecting 35 ish as the weather gets worse. Our daily mileage is well within that so most journeys are EV and we charge at home on cheap rate electricity, so low CO2 and cheaper than petrol.
In general use it has the benefits and drive of an EV (instant torque from pull off with strong linear acceleration, silent, no gear changes, super cheap running costs) combined with absurd performance when you want it, combined with being able to do a long journey on a bank holiday without having to plan stops or queue at a service station.
On a super long run with no battery charge remaining it seems to get around 40MPG, so better than the equivalent petrol but a bit worse than a frugal diesel. But I can live with a 455BHP car with a worst case of 40MPG.
Downsides: they're not cheap - for you to decide whether it makes sense. It depends what you're comparing it with. They're not as efficient as a full EV - the best efficiency figure of ours is down at the bottom end of EVs, but it's still vastly more efficient than an EV, and still much cheaper to run on electric. Some of them lose a bit of boot space. The smaller battery means you have to remember to put it on charge every night / every time you use it - ours will just do 2 days of commute but that leaves no capacity then for a quick pop to the shops so we charge every day as a "just in case". If you give it a boot full of unplanned throttle there's a bit of a delay whilst it fires up the ICE, and asking a cold ICE for max power doesn't seem too kind to me
The weight thing seems a bit misleading - they're heavier than regular ICE cars, but about the same weight as the equivalent EV. So whilst you might be carrying the weight of an engine and a battery around, it's a much smaller and lighter battery than an EV, so works out about the same.
Our PHEV has a claimed range of 48 miles, which on fast A roads in ideal conditions (now with warmish days so little heating or A/C) that translates to 42 miles. I'm expecting 35 ish as the weather gets worse. Our daily mileage is well within that so most journeys are EV and we charge at home on cheap rate electricity, so low CO2 and cheaper than petrol.
In general use it has the benefits and drive of an EV (instant torque from pull off with strong linear acceleration, silent, no gear changes, super cheap running costs) combined with absurd performance when you want it, combined with being able to do a long journey on a bank holiday without having to plan stops or queue at a service station.
On a super long run with no battery charge remaining it seems to get around 40MPG, so better than the equivalent petrol but a bit worse than a frugal diesel. But I can live with a 455BHP car with a worst case of 40MPG.
Downsides: they're not cheap - for you to decide whether it makes sense. It depends what you're comparing it with. They're not as efficient as a full EV - the best efficiency figure of ours is down at the bottom end of EVs, but it's still vastly more efficient than an EV, and still much cheaper to run on electric. Some of them lose a bit of boot space. The smaller battery means you have to remember to put it on charge every night / every time you use it - ours will just do 2 days of commute but that leaves no capacity then for a quick pop to the shops so we charge every day as a "just in case". If you give it a boot full of unplanned throttle there's a bit of a delay whilst it fires up the ICE, and asking a cold ICE for max power doesn't seem too kind to me
MrTrilby said:
We thought they made sense enough to buy one, for similar reasons that you are considering them. They're not all created equal so caveats apply but our reasoning was:
The weight thing seems a bit misleading - they're heavier than regular ICE cars, but about the same weight as the equivalent EV. So whilst you might be carrying the weight of an engine and a battery around, it's a much smaller and lighter battery than an EV, so works out about the same.
Our PHEV has a claimed range of 48 miles, which on fast A roads in ideal conditions (now with warmish days so little heating or A/C) that translates to 42 miles. I'm expecting 35 ish as the weather gets worse. Our daily mileage is well within that so most journeys are EV and we charge at home on cheap rate electricity, so low CO2 and cheaper than petrol.
In general use it has the benefits and drive of an EV (instant torque from pull off with strong linear acceleration, silent, no gear changes, super cheap running costs) combined with absurd performance when you want it, combined with being able to do a long journey on a bank holiday without having to plan stops or queue at a service station.
On a super long run with no battery charge remaining it seems to get around 40MPG, so better than the equivalent petrol but a bit worse than a frugal diesel. But I can live with a 455BHP car with a worst case of 40MPG.
Downsides: they're not cheap - for you to decide whether it makes sense. It depends what you're comparing it with. They're not as efficient as a full EV - the best efficiency figure of ours is down at the bottom end of EVs, but it's still vastly more efficient than an EV, and still much cheaper to run on electric. Some of them lose a bit of boot space. The smaller battery means you have to remember to put it on charge every night / every time you use it - ours will just do 2 days of commute but that leaves no capacity then for a quick pop to the shops so we charge every day as a "just in case". If you give it a boot full of unplanned throttle there's a bit of a delay whilst it fires up the ICE, and asking a cold ICE for max power doesn't seem too kind to me
Second this with our brand new BMW 330e. The weight thing seems a bit misleading - they're heavier than regular ICE cars, but about the same weight as the equivalent EV. So whilst you might be carrying the weight of an engine and a battery around, it's a much smaller and lighter battery than an EV, so works out about the same.
Our PHEV has a claimed range of 48 miles, which on fast A roads in ideal conditions (now with warmish days so little heating or A/C) that translates to 42 miles. I'm expecting 35 ish as the weather gets worse. Our daily mileage is well within that so most journeys are EV and we charge at home on cheap rate electricity, so low CO2 and cheaper than petrol.
In general use it has the benefits and drive of an EV (instant torque from pull off with strong linear acceleration, silent, no gear changes, super cheap running costs) combined with absurd performance when you want it, combined with being able to do a long journey on a bank holiday without having to plan stops or queue at a service station.
On a super long run with no battery charge remaining it seems to get around 40MPG, so better than the equivalent petrol but a bit worse than a frugal diesel. But I can live with a 455BHP car with a worst case of 40MPG.
Downsides: they're not cheap - for you to decide whether it makes sense. It depends what you're comparing it with. They're not as efficient as a full EV - the best efficiency figure of ours is down at the bottom end of EVs, but it's still vastly more efficient than an EV, and still much cheaper to run on electric. Some of them lose a bit of boot space. The smaller battery means you have to remember to put it on charge every night / every time you use it - ours will just do 2 days of commute but that leaves no capacity then for a quick pop to the shops so we charge every day as a "just in case". If you give it a boot full of unplanned throttle there's a bit of a delay whilst it fires up the ICE, and asking a cold ICE for max power doesn't seem too kind to me
We’d get really good figures for ours which match an EV but then again we are saloon. Petrol only see closer to 50mpg.
Benefits of both EV and ICE without any of the downsides personally.
Overall we love it (me include to my surprise)
A bit OT but had a Grandland as a hire car - it was truly awful - are you planning a divorce ?
Al U said:
I think they make sense.
I have been thinking about a mid size SUV for my wife recently to replace her 2016 Astra.
She likes her Astra and all the equipment it has so the Grandland X in at least Elite Nav spec seems the sensible next car for her.
They come in 1.5D, 1.2T petrol (both have 130bhp) or a 1.6T PHEV which has 300bhp.
I think the PHEV would be nice to have but the thing that puts me off is warranty. A lot of the cars for sale only come with short, non-manufacturer backed warranties.
On something with expensive batteries, e-motors and all the other hybrid gubbins I think I'd want a manufacturer backed warranty of at least a year and ideally 2 years. The option to renew the warranty at the end would also be good like you can with BMW.
I have been thinking about a mid size SUV for my wife recently to replace her 2016 Astra.
She likes her Astra and all the equipment it has so the Grandland X in at least Elite Nav spec seems the sensible next car for her.
They come in 1.5D, 1.2T petrol (both have 130bhp) or a 1.6T PHEV which has 300bhp.
I think the PHEV would be nice to have but the thing that puts me off is warranty. A lot of the cars for sale only come with short, non-manufacturer backed warranties.
On something with expensive batteries, e-motors and all the other hybrid gubbins I think I'd want a manufacturer backed warranty of at least a year and ideally 2 years. The option to renew the warranty at the end would also be good like you can with BMW.
Are you looking for a new car? Reason I ask is that for £30k you could get some great cars that produce a lot more power than the figures quoted.
You don’t do much mileage between the two cars so MPG isn’t a huge factor, so you could have something like this with a spare 3k+ to put in the bank for running costs. Certainly far faster and more enjoyable to drive than your aforementioned hybrids.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/266272227608?mkcid=16&a...
You don’t do much mileage between the two cars so MPG isn’t a huge factor, so you could have something like this with a spare 3k+ to put in the bank for running costs. Certainly far faster and more enjoyable to drive than your aforementioned hybrids.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/266272227608?mkcid=16&a...
Marc p said:
Are you looking for a new car? Reason I ask is that for £30k you could get some great cars that produce a lot more power than the figures quoted.
You don’t do much mileage between the two cars so MPG isn’t a huge factor, so you could have something like this with a spare 3k+ to put in the bank for running costs. Certainly far faster and more enjoyable to drive than your aforementioned hybrids.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/266272227608?mkcid=16&a...
I'm looking for something relatively compact, as a lot of my journeys are visiting customers down narrow lanes and with no parking. You don’t do much mileage between the two cars so MPG isn’t a huge factor, so you could have something like this with a spare 3k+ to put in the bank for running costs. Certainly far faster and more enjoyable to drive than your aforementioned hybrids.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/266272227608?mkcid=16&a...
I had a Superb 280 estate. Fast, but a bit too big at times. Put me right off running anything from VAG when the turbo failed just outside warranty with less than 30k on the clock.
A decent warranty is a must, one reason why I've owned a few Kias, or it needs to be a cheap "throwaway" car.
Good to know that hybrids can work out. My worry is that I'd get bored with plugging it in after every journey.
I think they're an excellent solution for your use (and would be for me if I had a driveway). At least if you use all the EV range every day the engine is getting some daily use and the regen braking will still keep the petrol consumption down. If the petrol engine is being used for say 50 miles a week instead of 200, visits to petrol stations will be much less often - so there's the payback for the small job of plugging it in every day.
For me, the sums didn’t add up. The Mrs and I still both WFH and use the bulk of energy during the day, so can’t take advantage of cheap overnight charging.
So without cheap electricity, full electric didn’t make sense either.
Most of our driving is done stuck in London traffic where new gen full hybrids have superb economy. Whatcar tested the Yaris Cross Hybrid at 103.3mpg on their simulated town driving route for instance, the Honda Civic at over 80mpg which meant the cost in fuel per mile rivalled the costs of electricity at regular capped prices.
You didn’t mention if you can take advantage of cheaper overnight electricity rates (at the expense of more expensive day rates). That will be a biggie for your calculations. I think there are some smart tariffs with dynamic pricing that adjusts to demand, but it all sounded a bit complicated and thought I might be monitoring leccy prices before making a cup of tea during the day etc. Definitely didn’t want to deal with that.
So without cheap electricity, full electric didn’t make sense either.
Most of our driving is done stuck in London traffic where new gen full hybrids have superb economy. Whatcar tested the Yaris Cross Hybrid at 103.3mpg on their simulated town driving route for instance, the Honda Civic at over 80mpg which meant the cost in fuel per mile rivalled the costs of electricity at regular capped prices.
You didn’t mention if you can take advantage of cheaper overnight electricity rates (at the expense of more expensive day rates). That will be a biggie for your calculations. I think there are some smart tariffs with dynamic pricing that adjusts to demand, but it all sounded a bit complicated and thought I might be monitoring leccy prices before making a cup of tea during the day etc. Definitely didn’t want to deal with that.
Edited by wyson on Friday 29th September 10:49
I don't have a charger yet, so would have to get that sorted (or a waterproof outdoor socket). Opening the garage door to plug in a granny charger would get old very quickly.
I have a smart meter, so swapping to an EV tariff should be possible. Need to do the sums.
One concern is that many of the plug-in hybrids that I would consider buying were over £40k when new, so an extra £390 road tax for a few years. Not a problem with fully-electric, or even with petrol where the list prices were lower.
I have a smart meter, so swapping to an EV tariff should be possible. Need to do the sums.
One concern is that many of the plug-in hybrids that I would consider buying were over £40k when new, so an extra £390 road tax for a few years. Not a problem with fully-electric, or even with petrol where the list prices were lower.
I'm tempted too but don't think t stack up purely on financial grounds as the difference in price between mild hybrid and plug in is way more than I'd save in fuel. I like the idea of the convenience of just plugging it in when it's only being used for short trips though and the fact that Volvo's idea of PHEV is give it the full power petrol engine and then add another 100 bhp of electric.
I’ve got a Cupra Formentor 245 Hybrid, OK it’s VAG as above but it’s one of the better built cars I’ve ever had.
Does about 30 miles to the battery (supposed to do 34) so a bit short on your commute, but it’s certainly fun to drive unlike some of the other PHEVs I tried, especially in Cupra mode with both battery and turbo boosting. Charging overnight on a granny outdoor socket with Intelligent Octopus it’s about £7.50 for a full charge at 7.5p/KW.
It’s doing about 70mpg in hybrid mode on A/B road work, 55-60mpg on the motorway when the battery’s exhausted and not much chance to regen. Overall mpg is just a case of how often you run it on EV only mode.
Does about 30 miles to the battery (supposed to do 34) so a bit short on your commute, but it’s certainly fun to drive unlike some of the other PHEVs I tried, especially in Cupra mode with both battery and turbo boosting. Charging overnight on a granny outdoor socket with Intelligent Octopus it’s about £7.50 for a full charge at 7.5p/KW.
It’s doing about 70mpg in hybrid mode on A/B road work, 55-60mpg on the motorway when the battery’s exhausted and not much chance to regen. Overall mpg is just a case of how often you run it on EV only mode.
clockworks said:
Good to know that hybrids can work out. My worry is that I'd get bored with plugging it in after every journey.
They can, in the right circumstances. Yours sound like a good candidate. If you have a tethered charging cable, it is a matter of seconds to plug it in. Hardly the stuff of nightmares.I'm of the mind that the best PHEV ever has sadly been out of production for 8 years now, and is still far and away better than most PHEVs which have emerged since. It's the Vauxhall Ampera. Nothing else comes close to its 50 miles electric range. However, they're probably all too old for you now.
I've been considering a PHEV myself recently, although I'd want a bigger one than you, and I'm tempted by the Peugeot 508.
So, for you, how's about a DS4?
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202308150...
Or wait a year until an Alfa Romeo Tonale comes down to your budget.
There are quite a few options that would fit the bill. However, you can pick up a brand new MG HS with a 5 year warranty. I know Chinese cars can be divisive, but I'm on my second with work and they have been great. It's worth getting the highest trim possible as my second HS is a lower spec and I definitely miss the features of the previous car.
But for me, It would have to be a brand new hybrid Dacia Jogger in Extreme SE trim. Excellent value for money with decent kit and still has physical buttons alongside the touch screen. Personally I think they look pretty cool too. A great do it all car.
Another option could be a brand new Vitara, although maybe a little small.
But for me, It would have to be a brand new hybrid Dacia Jogger in Extreme SE trim. Excellent value for money with decent kit and still has physical buttons alongside the touch screen. Personally I think they look pretty cool too. A great do it all car.
Another option could be a brand new Vitara, although maybe a little small.
Edited by Silvanus on Friday 29th September 14:36
Cars currently (or recently) on my shortlist:
Peugeot 3008 GT, the 300bhp hybrid current model
Sportage hybrid, in top spec GT- S trim
Hyundai Ioniq 5 Ultimate
Kia Niro, in 4 trim
Cupra Born, in V3 trim (V2 trim might be sufficient)
MG4 X
I'd prefer the top spec versions, as both my current cars are well-specced, and I don't want to give up the "toys".
All are currently available for £30 to 35k.
The Born might be a little cramped inside?
The MG4 X was favourite, but potential issues with trim and driver aids are a bit off-putting.
Like the looks of the Ioniq from the outside, but might be a little too big. Same with the Kia EV6.
Both the hybrids attract the £40k road tax premium.
I really need to go and drive a few of them.
Peugeot 3008 GT, the 300bhp hybrid current model
Sportage hybrid, in top spec GT- S trim
Hyundai Ioniq 5 Ultimate
Kia Niro, in 4 trim
Cupra Born, in V3 trim (V2 trim might be sufficient)
MG4 X
I'd prefer the top spec versions, as both my current cars are well-specced, and I don't want to give up the "toys".
All are currently available for £30 to 35k.
The Born might be a little cramped inside?
The MG4 X was favourite, but potential issues with trim and driver aids are a bit off-putting.
Like the looks of the Ioniq from the outside, but might be a little too big. Same with the Kia EV6.
Both the hybrids attract the £40k road tax premium.
I really need to go and drive a few of them.
clockworks said:
Cars currently (or recently) on my shortlist:
Peugeot 3008 GT, the 300bhp hybrid current model
Sportage hybrid, in top spec GT- S trim
Hyundai Ioniq 5 Ultimate
Kia Niro, in 4 trim
Cupra Born, in V3 trim (V2 trim might be sufficient)
MG4 X
I'd prefer the top spec versions, as both my current cars are well-specced, and I don't want to give up the "toys".
All are currently available for £30 to 35k.
The Born might be a little cramped inside?
The MG4 X was favourite, but potential issues with trim and driver aids are a bit off-putting.
Like the looks of the Ioniq from the outside, but might be a little too big. Same with the Kia EV6.
Both the hybrids attract the £40k road tax premium.
I really need to go and drive a few of them.
Looking at the cars on that list, its certainly worth looking at the MG HS hybridPeugeot 3008 GT, the 300bhp hybrid current model
Sportage hybrid, in top spec GT- S trim
Hyundai Ioniq 5 Ultimate
Kia Niro, in 4 trim
Cupra Born, in V3 trim (V2 trim might be sufficient)
MG4 X
I'd prefer the top spec versions, as both my current cars are well-specced, and I don't want to give up the "toys".
All are currently available for £30 to 35k.
The Born might be a little cramped inside?
The MG4 X was favourite, but potential issues with trim and driver aids are a bit off-putting.
Like the looks of the Ioniq from the outside, but might be a little too big. Same with the Kia EV6.
Both the hybrids attract the £40k road tax premium.
I really need to go and drive a few of them.
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