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GTO600

1,641 posts

131 months

[news] 
Tuesday 2nd October 2012 quote quote all
sundance002 said:
I thought it was the engine bay temp sensor, but I could be wrong.
Could be but looks like a knock sensor.

andygtt

7,161 posts

144 months

[news] 
Tuesday 2nd October 2012 quote quote all
GTO600 said:
andygtt said:
GTO600 said:
Craig, assume that's a knock sensor to the right of the oil filter, will it work there ?

What do you think of my fuel tank ?
Jag put it in the centre of the v between the heads
That's where mine is thumbup
how do you map in the knock? surelly you need to actually hear det to teach it what to listen for?

GTO600

1,641 posts

131 months

[news] 
Tuesday 2nd October 2012 quote quote all
It's on an independent unit giving visual warning until l get it connected & set up on my Omex Ecu.

951

545 posts

35 months

[news] 
Tuesday 2nd October 2012 quote quote all
GTO600 said:
It's on an independent unit giving visual warning until l get it connected & set up on my Omex Ecu.
Which one did you go with?

I connected a couple of Link knock products to my Porsche - one for datalogging while tuning and one for visual display. However, a little later I managed to pick up the factory knock data (after processing) and added it to the datolog. I then and found that they didn't correlate too well at all. frown

I'd still like to add something to the Noble, but not sure how to sanity check it!



Edited by 951 on Tuesday 2nd October 16:12

YellowShed

576 posts

163 months

[news] 
Tuesday 2nd October 2012 quote quote all
951 said:
Which one did you go with?

I connected a couple of Link knock products to my Porsche - one for datalogging while tuning and one for visual display. However, a little later I managed to pick up the factory knock data (after processing) and added it to the datolog. I then and found that they didn't correlate too well at all. frown

I'd still like to add something to the Noble, but not sure how to sanity check it!



Edited by 951 on Tuesday 2nd October 16:12
That doesn't surprise me in the slightest. Especially if the OE system is doing active knock control, I would expect the aftermarket one to barely see any knock at all.

As someone who's calibrated OE knock systems on dyno where we can control all the temperatures and fuel quality, monitor in-cylinder pressures etc, I can say that the algorithms used are pretty sophisticated with knock windowing and sensitivity offsets etc per cylinder to get good active knock control.

I can imagine that an aftermarket system is only going to pick up gross knock - that's if it can distinguish between knock and valve closing events etc. It'll have no idea of when combustion takes place and so I expect it will have to rely on gross knock to be sure.

YellowShed
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GTO600

1,641 posts

131 months

[news] 
Tuesday 2nd October 2012 quote quote all
I can imagine that an aftermarket system is only going to pick up gross knock - that's if it can distinguish between knock and valve closing events etc. It'll have no idea of when combustion takes place and so I expect it will have to rely on gross knock to be sure.

YellowShed
[/quote]

Totally agree Yellowshed but considering l couldn't hear it when others could then thought a visual indication if serious knock occurs was a good idea !

Gadgeroonie

5,297 posts

116 months

[news] 
Tuesday 2nd October 2012 quote quote all
sundance002 said:
It's the oil cooler, originally it was mounted at the front, which we thought was to far to work properly, and now doesn't take any space in the tunnel. this is a new type, which is supposed to be a lot more effective.. The gearbox cooler will be mounted in the other side pod.

Skip at Bespoke is doing all the work, and his very good, extremely tidy, and very thorough.

Edited by sundance002 on Tuesday 2nd October 12:17
is your car an m400 ? did it have an oil cooler in the side pod before ? are you using the engine cooling system to cool the oil also

terrybourne

35 posts

20 months

[news] 
Wednesday 3rd October 2012 quote quote all
Hi Chaps,
Just to clear things up on the knock control. As you know sundances new system is equiped with self learning active knock control. The knock control system in the life ecu allows you to tune in to the frequency of your detination rather like tunning in a radio. The first part of the process is to run just into the edge of knock on the dyno and set your frequency to this level. Next we set up our window that we want the knock control to run in which is normally around two or three degrees of ignition. once we are happy with that we check on the dyno to see that our window is safe and also not pulling out to much. Stage two of the calibration is done in the car where we fine tune the frequency some more to make sure that we are not getting any gear box or other drivetrain noise afecting it. The next part of the calibration is setting the knock control cylinder trims, this is also done in the car as we need to work out each cylinders running temperatures. If two cylinders are running hotter than the other four due to water cooling set up or hot spots within the engine bay. These cylinders will run into detenation quicker, therefore we need the control to work in a different window for these cylinders. The fact that the life system lets you tune your knock sensors to specific freqency means to an exstent it doesnt matter where they are positioned, also i find the out side of the block to be better as you get less valve train noise. Hope this has cleared up any queries.


Edited by terrybourne on Wednesday 3rd October 02:22


Edited by terrybourne on Wednesday 3rd October 02:32

andygtt

7,161 posts

144 months

[news] 
Wednesday 3rd October 2012 quote quote all
I must admit I still don't understand how you can know the frequency of det without actually hearing it....

I've had det on the noble due to a fuel issue and it damaged a piston, couldn't hear it though unlike my old cossie where it was very clear.

At the moment I'm going to stick with reading wideband, fuel pressure/ temp and egt and put controls around those.

Adrian W

9,066 posts

108 months

[news] 
Wednesday 3rd October 2012 quote quote all
andygtt said:
I must admit I still don't understand how you can know the frequency of det without actually hearing it....

I've had det on the noble due to a fuel issue and it damaged a piston, couldn't hear it though unlike my old cossie where it was very clear.

At the moment I'm going to stick with reading wideband, fuel pressure/ temp and egt and put controls around those.
I read that this morning and thought that isolating the right noise and then filtering for individual cylinders from one microphone would be an interesting challenge, but he says he can do it!

sundance002

Original Poster:

848 posts

44 months

[news] 
Wednesday 3rd October 2012 quote quote all
Adrian W said:
I read that this morning and thought that isolating the right noise and then filtering for individual cylinders from one microphone would be an interesting challenge, but he says he can do it!
Having just read, I'm def no tech, but maybe it's computer processed, so by putting a sensor by each cylinder the programme can learn the freq of the det thus allowing the ecu to be set. Then the ecu has the correct info and can learn from that point. Prob wrong, maybe he does use a mic.

Adrian W

9,066 posts

108 months

[news] 
Wednesday 3rd October 2012 quote quote all
sundance002 said:
Having just read, I'm def no tech, but maybe it's computer processed, so by putting a sensor by each cylinder the programme can learn the freq of the det thus allowing the ecu to be set. Then the ecu has the correct info and can learn from that point. Prob wrong, maybe he does use a mic.
If he could do that successfully he would be a very wealthy man, his detection software would have endless applications in all sorts of industries, Of course it’s a mike, he may call it a piezo transducer but it’s a microphone

Gadgeroonie

5,297 posts

116 months

[news] 
Wednesday 3rd October 2012 quote quote all
There are various products on the market that listen for det. I use something called a knockbox and use my ears to identify the sound. Some software can identify knock, if you know the bore diameter you can get closer to the correct frequency. There is a product called the js knockguard that is a great product. It monitors knock and will actually remove timing on the knocking cylinder saving an engine.

In my personal experience using a det listening device the visual light up devices come on long after i have already heard det.

sundance002

Original Poster:

848 posts

44 months

[news] 
Thursday 4th October 2012 quote quote all
Adrian W said:
If he could do that successfully he would be a very wealthy man, his detection software would have endless applications in all sorts of industries, Of course it’s a mike, he may call it a piezo transducer but it’s a microphone
He uses Det cans which are like headphones connected to the engine, no mic.

ThatPhilBrettGuy

11,622 posts

120 months

[news] 
Thursday 4th October 2012 quote quote all
sundance002 said:
Adrian W said:
If he could do that successfully he would be a very wealthy man, his detection software would have endless applications in all sorts of industries, Of course it’s a mike, he may call it a piezo transducer but it’s a microphone
He uses Det cans which are like headphones connected to the engine, no mic.
So he plays it music? silly

It's a mic.

sundance002

Original Poster:

848 posts

44 months

[news] 
Thursday 4th October 2012 quote quote all
ThatPhilBrettGuy said:
o he plays it music? silly

It's a mic.
No, he listens to its .musicsilly since when do you listen through a mic

GTO600

1,641 posts

131 months

[news] 
Thursday 4th October 2012 quote quote all
sundance002 said:
No, he listens to its .musicsilly since when do you listen through a mic
Craig, he needs the mic to pick up the sound to listen through the headphones !

Hollowpockets

5,455 posts

96 months

[news] 
Thursday 4th October 2012 quote quote all
Chuckle

Gadgeroonie

5,297 posts

116 months

[news] 
Thursday 4th October 2012 quote quote all
Sounds like somebody is taking the mic ;-)

andygtt

7,161 posts

144 months

[news] 
Thursday 4th October 2012 quote quote all
Yes listening to the engine through det headphones (they are a rudamentory Mic and headphone combined) can help you listen for det.... but you still need to actually hear it to know what it sounds like and then programme the ecu to listen to this frequency.

Im going to remain confused how aftermarket stuff can be effective but then this is way outside my field of expertise... so i'm going to concentrate my effort on various engine temps and pressures along with wideband (as sundances also does) and make the map slightly safer and thus avoid det altogether.

BTW
Kev, when mine det'd I also didnt hear it... and I've heard it plenty of times before on both my SBC ultima and high boost Cosworth so know what to listen for.


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