Definitive solution for M12 intercooler

[elisek]

At the END, our NOBLE has only big intercooler.
Goes like a rocket, has not turbolag and all the things said to resolve the overheating problems are pure bullshit!

[gizard]

paulcundy said:

[ ......errr watch this space. Does my car have a load of Janspeed components in the passenger footwell waiting to be welded up? - yes Yes, I do, they are of equal length. Regards Paul C

Have you got a plan of how to improve things or is your's just enourmous!!! My only concern with this route is the noise but we shall have to see.

[AMG Merc]

elisek said:

At the END, our NOBLE has only big intercooler. Goes like a rocket, has not turbolag and all the things said to resolve the overheating problems are pure bullshit!

... what overheating problems Elisek?

[elisek]

AMG Merc said:

elisek said: At the END, our NOBLE has only big intercooler. Goes like a rocket, has not turbolag and all the things said to resolve the overheating problems are pure bullshit! ... what overheating problems Elisek?

problems with intercooler!

[yellowshed]

matt_t16 said:

gotapex said: The question is... Is your rear end calibrated enough to feel a .036 second difference in lag? My rear end certainly isn't, but the transponder on a race car and accompanying timing gear is. 10 lap race, 7 corners per lap, lets say you lift for 6 of them. 6 X .036 = 0.216 seconds of lag per lap 0.216 X 10 laps = 2.16 seconds of lag Now remember the above doesn't take into account the start and assumes the entire race is driven in one gear and that you only lift and decel for each corner once. Obviously we can run around with this all day, we've not even talked about the increased drag an increase in number of cooling tubes would cause, but hopefully the above makes it clear just how important minimising turbo lag is, a very very very small amount of lag can become rather significant under certain conditions! Best Regards Matt

So let's run around it some more! You assume that turbo lag == no power and therefore all that time is lost. You cannot equate turbo lag time to lap time.

For what it's worth, I agree with gotapex's calcs for flow and displacement, and with Pete's summary that the calc's don't quite line up in a transient system - i.e. rising pressure with engine taking out air while the turbo is putting it in.

There is much more to turbo lag than volume of intercooler. How well the turbo is matched to the SYSTEM - that's engine, intake and exhaust as a whole - determines "lag". To me, turbo lag is the time from a snap open throttle, from part throttle to full throttle, to full boost being achieved, at a high enough engine speed for the turbos to spool effectively - e.g. 4000rpm. To me turbo lag is NOT full throttle accel from 1500rpm and noticeable boost not being achieved until 4000rpm. That's bad turbo matching.

In short, there'll be no measurable difference in turbo lag with the different intercoolers - driver repeatability will make a bigger difference!!

My 2cents, for what its worth.

YellowShed

[matt_t16]

yellowshed said:

So let's run around it some more! You assume that turbo lag == no power and therefore all that time is lost. You cannot equate turbo lag time to lap time. For what it's worth, I agree with gotapex's calcs for flow and displacement, and with Pete's summary that the calc's don't quite line up in a transient system - i.e. rising pressure with engine taking out air while the turbo is putting it in. There is much more to turbo lag than volume of intercooler. How well the turbo is matched to the SYSTEM - that's engine, intake and exhaust as a whole - determines "lag". To me, turbo lag is the time from a snap open throttle, from part throttle to full throttle, to full boost being achieved, at a high enough engine speed for the turbos to spool effectively - e.g. 4000rpm. To me turbo lag is NOT full throttle accel from 1500rpm and noticeable boost not being achieved until 4000rpm. That's bad turbo matching. In short, there'll be no measurable difference in turbo lag with the different intercoolers - driver repeatability will make a bigger difference!! My 2cents, for what its worth. YellowShed

I may have been guilty of over simplyfying the above whilst trying to show that very small losses can add up to something very significant over race distance.

In short from the testing we have performed so far we can say (in the simpliest terms) that an M12 fitted with our IC has a cooler charge temperature for longer than an M12 with the standard IC. It does not negatively impact the car in anyway and solves the major issue of heat soak. Whether or not it will have measurably less lag than a car fitted with a unit twice the size is somewhat academic - but still good fun to discuss

Best Regards
Matt

[paulcundy]

elisek said:

pure bullshit!

Dear Elisek,
I think you need your own list mate, where's the moderator?
Regards
Paul C

[paulcundy]

gizard said:

paulcundy said: [ ......errr watch this space. Does my car have a load of Janspeed components in the passenger footwell waiting to be welded up? - yes Yes, I do, they are of equal length. Regards Paul C Have you got a plan of how to improve things or is your's just enourmous!!! My only concern with this route is the noise but we shall have to see.

No, just high flow cats and boxes on as short a pipework as we can arrange. Aiming for 98 dB.
Paul C

[elisek]

paulcundy said:

elisek said: pure bullshit! Dear Elisek, I think you need your own list mate, where's the moderator? Regards Paul C

i think that is the shortest way to rappresent the situation.
Sorry but i don't know all the english words and i explain better in this way.........maybe you can help me with your perfect italian!

All the solution you are giving are wrong!
maybe you didn't understand our experience!!!!

i want that you save time.........but if you want waist it because you don't have anything better to do.........well don't follow our indications and go ahead with NASA solutions!

>> Edited by elisek on Wednesday 23 February 10:14

[paulcundy]

elisek said:

paulcundy said: elisek said: pure bullshit! Dear Elisek, I think you need your own list mate, where's the moderator? Regards Paul C i think that is the shortest way to rappresent the situation. Sorry but i don't know all the english words and i explain better in this way.........maybe you can help me with your perfect italian! All the solution you are giving are wrong! maybe you didn't understand our experience!!!! i want that you save time.........but if you want waist it because you don't have anything better to do.........well don't follow our indications and go ahead with NASA solutions! >> Edited by elisek on Wednesday 23 February 10:14

Caro Elisek

Tutto che dobbiamo sapere è quanto il vostro Intercooler costa.

Allora possiamo comporre le nostre proprie menti.

E potete smettere di gridare!

Ciao
Paul C

[chillidog]

And for those of your that don't speak Italian the Google translate tool translates this to ....

"Elisek beloved All that we must know is how much your Intercooler costs. Then we can compose our own minds. And you can stop to scream!"

[gizard]

paulcundy said:

No, just high flow cats and boxes on as short a pipework as we can arrange. Aiming for 98 dB. Paul C

Hmm sounds interesting. Have you still got all three KATS in your car or just the Pre-Kats after the turbo's ? (When my car was a 2.5L it had all three to begin with until I removed the main one with a KAT bypass pipe from the factory).

[elisek]

paulcundy said:

elisek said: paulcundy said: elisek said: pure bullshit! Dear Elisek, I think you need your own list mate, where's the moderator? Regards Paul C i think that is the shortest way to rappresent the situation. Sorry but i don't know all the english words and i explain better in this way.........maybe you can help me with your perfect italian! All the solution you are giving are wrong! maybe you didn't understand our experience!!!! i want that you save time.........but if you want waist it because you don't have anything better to do.........well don't follow our indications and go ahead with NASA solutions! >> Edited by elisek on Wednesday 23 February 10:14 Caro Elisek Tutto che dobbiamo sapere è quanto il vostro Intercooler costa. Allora possiamo comporre le nostre proprie menti. E potete smettere di gridare! Ciao Paul C

your italian is completelly wrong!

[elisek]

i will post shortly picture and price for the only one solution for intercooler!

[paulcundy]

elisek said:

your italian is completelly wrong!

but effective.

[elisek]

paulcundy said:

elisek said: your italian is completelly wrong! but effective.

mmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[hunttheshunt]

Paul,

I'd be very interested in the details, price etc once assuming your hot test goes OK.

[DanH]

Interesting stuff.

I'll be interested in the exhaust too. I've got a real downer on janspeed though as their Elise stuff was crap. Sounded terrible too. I don't actually care that much about the free flowingness, I just want one tuned to sound nice

Tubi, wherefore art thou?

[paulcundy]

Dear All,
The italian chap, Gianluca (aka EliseK), has sent me photos of his IC solution. Who can help me get them posted up on the thread - I never seem to be able to do it. Contact me direct and I will e-mail them to you. They are 1.7MB. The price for the IC is £980 + VAT.
Regards
Paul C

[joust]

Mail them to me matey!

J