My weekend of hell.
Discussion
Ok, maybe you can all dig up examples of the one car in a thousand that has a niggle. But I'm talking about fundamental design floors in some uk cars that affect all of them.
A car like the noble is obviously going to be put under stress. It's a sports car / track car. Obviously putting in the cheapest gearbox you can find isn't the right way to go about things.
All I'm saying is, it's a great concept but just badly flawed in some areas. Just like tvr I suppose. Why, oh why don't tvr drop in a 100% corvette V8 and be done with it, by the way.
Oh well, just my 2p. Have fun when it's back on the road.
A car like the noble is obviously going to be put under stress. It's a sports car / track car. Obviously putting in the cheapest gearbox you can find isn't the right way to go about things.
All I'm saying is, it's a great concept but just badly flawed in some areas. Just like tvr I suppose. Why, oh why don't tvr drop in a 100% corvette V8 and be done with it, by the way.
Oh well, just my 2p. Have fun when it's back on the road.
We have lots of specialist engineering firms in the uk that do things properly, and they are fit for purpose, ie racing / trackdays. So why don't they use decent components like AP, Quaife etc. Obviously the ford mundano parts bin is dirt cheap, thats why.
Btw, a new carrera cost 56k. Same spec on a new Noble will only be a few beers difference. Obviously you could say a used Noble is 40k, however so is a used 911.
Btw, a new carrera cost 56k. Same spec on a new Noble will only be a few beers difference. Obviously you could say a used Noble is 40k, however so is a used 911.
I'd still hold that a Noble is a hell of a lot more bangs per buck than a 996. Does anyone know what, if anything, they've done to the Mundaneo gearbox ? I know the engine is comprehensively rebuilt. You suggest the Chevy V8 for TVRs, but this didn't start life as the 500bhp monster it can be developed into did it ?
An off the shelf vette motor is available in two specs, around 340bhp and 400bhp. This is a REAL 400 ponies too, not some mythical tvr type 400 poines! Yes you can tune them up much more, and you can also get bigger and heavier V8's. But this vette motor is an off the shelf standard part. Shame Wheeler's got this chip on his shoulder about using shite british components. Use the best for the job I say!
Well perhaps I was unlucky too but my first 993 blew its gearbox up. Porsche replaced it free of charge as these sorts of failures are extremely rare (they sent it back to Stuttgart to find out why it broke).
I love Porsches but I also love the Noble. To be honest it's the wrong car to rant about re: British build quality - it's brilliantly made compared to Lotuses and TVRs, both companies with significantly more resources than Noble.
Reliability and quality are very important to me, that's why I didn't get along with my Lotuses and why I won't own a TVR. The Noble impressed me enough to swap my Porker for it.
Gearbox failures are rare, but they happen to all manufacturers.
I love Porsches but I also love the Noble. To be honest it's the wrong car to rant about re: British build quality - it's brilliantly made compared to Lotuses and TVRs, both companies with significantly more resources than Noble.
Reliability and quality are very important to me, that's why I didn't get along with my Lotuses and why I won't own a TVR. The Noble impressed me enough to swap my Porker for it.
Gearbox failures are rare, but they happen to all manufacturers.
jaydee said: There's no way a Porsche this side of the 996TT (2x + the price) will keep up with a Noble.
For joust: Except at Bruntingthorpe, eh, Justin
I trust you will sort the wing out for this weekend 
I love Nobles to bits (my brother gets his Caterham serviced at John Nobles in Chesterfield, where they do the engines, and it was great to see the lumps lined up on the bench) but want a British sports car without dealer servicing costs and with a standard of build I can quantify and see before me. Far less of a road car, possibly more expensive and far less practical, but an Ultima it shall be
I would rate a Noble as above a Lotus Esprit build wise, BTW.
Interestingly, Audi have done a sterling job with Lamborghini apparently. The Murcielago is no less a lambo, but with audi's quality control systems it is far better quality as a car. Even the 6.0VT was a massive leap forward.
I think it boils down to quality control a lot of the time. German cars often cost more because they are checked and treble checked - remember the old Beetle ad that said there were more inspectors in Wolfsburg than cars being made? (That said the Beetles are hardly known for reliability!).
The Germans can get it wrong, too. My Opel Lotus Omega was screwed together in Russelheim and Norfolk, and both countries were to blame for its abysmal reliability. The quality of early 90s Opel rustproofing had to be seen to be believed.
>> Edited by domster on Wednesday 23 April 17:09
Roadrunner said: It's just infuriating that we don't do anything properly in the uk. I don't care how much of a bargain it *might* appear on first glance, it should be thoroughly engineered. It seems the germans are the only ones to bother with this detail anymore. Hopefully they'll sort it out.
As far as I'm concerned, sometimes shit happens. You can't judge someone when it does, but you CAN judge them by how they deal with it.
I've just got off the phone with Bob Sharp at Noble, he informs me that they've had one other gearbox problem and they put that down to a manufacturing problem. Keep in mind, Noble don't make the drive-train.
Apparently, HR Owen will be whipping the gearbox out tomorrow so we should know something a little more conclusive by tomorrow afternoon. Bob also informs me that a new gearbox is no problem and they can get it shipped out pretty quickly.
As a side note, HR Owen didn't have any courtesy cars available and so the sevice manager (Brian McKenna) has loaned me his own Jeep Gran Cherokee. So at least I'm mobile. I'd like to see a Porsche dealer do something like that - from what I understand the "Porsche Support" experience is pretty scandalous.
As far as Porsche is concerned this is not a marque that I would ever consider for even half a second, buggered gearbox or otherwise. I've been in and driven many (including a GT3) and it is so obvious that we're not comparing like for like. You take your german engineering and, quite frankly, you can push it!
Phil
I really wish everyone would stop comparing anything with more then 250bhp to a Porsche. Porsche have been designing cars longer than Lee Noble has ben alive, and build more cars in a month (probably in a week) than noble ever have. Our boxster is absolutely shockingly badly built, gaps on the dash, rattles everywhere, batteries dying by the vanload and plenty of poor design (those little black plastic bits infront of the rear wheels for example (speedhump, that'll be a new platic bit)).
Any handbuilt car will have its fair share of problems. Especially one going through such a public development program as the M12. And don't say porsches are hadbuilt. They say they are but the factory tour carefully guides you away from the body and chassis manufacturing plants, hmmm? Hand assembled maybe. I won't even start on the arrogant attitude of the dealers and service departments.
If your porsche gearbox broke, would it get inspected by the man who designed the car? Didn't think so.
Roadrunner - you profile doesn't list any cars. What do you base your porsche, TVR and Noble experiences on?
>> Edited by agent006 on Wednesday 23 April 17:54
Any handbuilt car will have its fair share of problems. Especially one going through such a public development program as the M12. And don't say porsches are hadbuilt. They say they are but the factory tour carefully guides you away from the body and chassis manufacturing plants, hmmm? Hand assembled maybe. I won't even start on the arrogant attitude of the dealers and service departments.
If your porsche gearbox broke, would it get inspected by the man who designed the car? Didn't think so.
Roadrunner - you profile doesn't list any cars. What do you base your porsche, TVR and Noble experiences on?
>> Edited by agent006 on Wednesday 23 April 17:54
Rainman said:
Roadrunner said: It's just infuriating that we don't do anything properly in the uk. I don't care how much of a bargain it *might* appear on first glance, it should be thoroughly engineered. It seems the germans are the only ones to bother with this detail anymore. Hopefully they'll sort it out.
As far as I'm concerned, sometimes shit happens. You can't judge someone when it does, but you CAN judge them by how they deal with it.
I've just got off the phone with Bob Sharp at Noble, he informs me that they've had one other gearbox problem and they put that down to a manufacturing problem. Keep in mind, Noble don't make the drive-train.
Apparently, HR Owen will be whipping the gearbox out tomorrow so we should know something a little more conclusive by tomorrow afternoon. Bob also informs me that a new gearbox is no problem and they can get it shipped out pretty quickly.
As a side note, HR Owen didn't have any courtesy cars available and so the sevice manager (Brian McKenna) has loaned me his own Jeep Gran Cherokee. So at least I'm mobile. I'd like to see a Porsche dealer do something like that - from what I understand the "Porsche Support" experience is pretty scandalous.
As far as Porsche is concerned this is not a marque that I would ever consider for even half a second, buggered gearbox or otherwise. I've been in and driven many (including a GT3) and it is so obvious that we're not comparing like for like. You take your german engineering and, quite frankly, you can push it!
Phil
Ok , sure I get the message loud and clear from all of you guys that Noble deal with these issues as pefrect English gentlemen UNDER WARRANTY but what about "my" used example - what would Noble do for me if the gearbox or engine bcame unusable when these are out of the original 12 month warranty?!?!
Rob.
agent006 said: I really wish everyone would stop comparing anything with more then 250bhp to a Porsche. Porsche have been designing cars longer than Lee Noble has ben alive, and build more cars in a month (probably in a week) than noble ever have. Our boxster is absolutely shockingly badly built, gaps on the dash, rattles everywhere, batteries dying by the vanload and plenty of poor design (those little black plastic bits infront of the rear wheels for example (speedhump, that'll be a new platic bit)).
Any handbuilt car will have its fair share of problems. Especially one going through such a public development program as the M12. And don't say porsches are hadbuilt. They say they are but the factory tour carefully guides you away from the body and chassis manufacturing plants, hmmm? Hand assembled maybe. I won't even start on the arrogant attitude of the dealers and service departments.
If your porsche gearbox broke, would it get inspected by the man who designed the car? Didn't think so.
Interesting points. I would say that you have to pick your comparisons carefully.
If I was getting a Noble to do what a Noble does best, I would also test a Porsche 993RS back to back with it.
Boxsters, 996 Carreras etc are too removed from the equation for my liking.
The reason everyone mentions Porsches as a benchmark, is that they are probably - by reputation at least - the best built sportscars you can buy. Even if they are characterless, driven by yuppies, have a poor dealer network blah blah blah. It would be like doing a review on the best toasters in the world without including a Dualit... the 911 is a classic in the same mould. Won't cook your toast better, but it has a loyal and noteable following.
As for the Boxster, well, it's just a good handling cheaper Porsche, that can bring some of the marque values to the masses (with sometimes patchy results perhaps).
The gearbox point is pretty irrelevant though. I'm sure the Porsche engineers do get to look at failed components occasionally and that Dr P used to take an interest now and again when he was alive.
By dint of being a bigger, foreign company with more cars to produce and look after, you'll never have the accessibility to key men as you do in a small firm.
Want accessibility? Buy an FBS Census and you'll meet the maker/designer/salesperson very quickly! It's just a shame that the 'dilution' with Porsches means that OPCs are often not staffed with true enthusiasts. If you want raving loony enthusiasts you have to go to people like ninemeister who is a Porsche independent specialist and a complete nutcase. He'd love to examine any component of a Porsche whether it is broken or even working fine, and even make you a modified part out of plasticine and sticky back plastic if you paid him for his research/development and manufacture time.
So, for the Noble vs Porsche experience, try a 993RS and get it serviced at ninemeister in Warrington. This would be similar to having a Noble M12 and going to John Noble's for servicing in Chesterfield.
domster said:
Interesting points. I would say that you have to pick your comparisons carefully.
If I was getting a Noble to do what a Noble does best, I would also test a Porsche 993RS back to back with it.
The whole point of this thread was to give some constructive feedback to existing and future M12 owners. Thanks for hijacking it (along with Roadrunner) with more Porsche v Noble diatribe, because this record is getting a little stuck.
Phil
I don't think the record is getting stuck. Lee Noble has come to the market with the M12 and found a very keen sweet spot. This is due to many things including: One of the benchmarks (the big P) going very corporate and mass market, and away from the real sports car buyer. The product, (M12) taking the market by storm and apealing to real sports car enthusiasts, price is and always will be an issue. etc etc.
Porsche has earned it's badge, I personally have worn the badge as have many. Right now I do not wish to pay such a high price for the badge. Plus, there is such a great British guy who has the passion and knowledge to build a car that really appeals to the genuine sports car buyer. Lets support that and give the opportunity to Lee Noble and his Team (in Chesterfield or SA) to set a new benchmark.
Porsche has earned it's badge, I personally have worn the badge as have many. Right now I do not wish to pay such a high price for the badge. Plus, there is such a great British guy who has the passion and knowledge to build a car that really appeals to the genuine sports car buyer. Lets support that and give the opportunity to Lee Noble and his Team (in Chesterfield or SA) to set a new benchmark.
3rtt said: I don't think the record is getting stuck. Lee Noble has come to the market with the M12 and found a very keen sweet spot. This is due to many things including: One of the benchmarks (the big P) going very corporate and mass market, and away from the real sports car buyer. The product, (M12) taking the market by storm and apealing to real sports car enthusiasts, price is and always will be an issue. etc etc.
Porsche has earned it's badge, I personally have worn the badge as have many. Right now I do not wish to pay such a high price for the badge. Plus, there is such a great British guy who has the passion and knowledge to build a car that really appeals to the genuine sports car buyer. Lets support that and give the opportunity to Lee Noble and his Team (in Chesterfield or SA) to set a new benchmark.
OK, OK but I'm not going to pay for Noble's R&D - I remember (although I was too young to own one) the Jensen Healey!!!
Rob.
>> Edited by rsherwin on Wednesday 23 April 21:42
I got within a few hundred yards of the next exit and BANG - all hell broke loose, the car was juddering, there was an almighty racket and it sounded like the the gearbox was being dragged along the road. I couldn't believe it.
Bummer. Makes the minor fettling that mine is at HROwen for seem somewhat trivial...
Hope you get it back soon (I'll not badger them too much about getting mine done
) Jim
>> Edited by JimNoble on Wednesday 23 April 22:04
Why couldn't they put the engine in longitudinally? I know it would mean using a different gearbox but would surely improve the already great handling and reduce the problems of oil surge in the sump. I know it's because its available as a front wheel drive unit from a mondeo and so cheaper but I think I'd find this too much of a comprimise in a £50k sports car. If I was paying that sort of money, I'd be willing to pay more for a proper installation (not that I'm ever likely to be able to afford anything even half that price 
)
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