My weekend of hell.
Discussion
Why couldn't they put the engine in longitudinally? I know it would mean using a different gearbox but would surely improve the already great handling and reduce the problems of oil surge in the sump. I know it's because its available as a front wheel drive unit from a mondeo and so cheaper but I think I'd find this too much of a comprimise in a £50k sports car. If I was paying that sort of money, I'd be willing to pay more for a proper installation (not that I'm ever likely to be able to afford anything even half that price 
)
)Considering the small number of failures who would know if it wasn't for forums such as this.it is encouraging that Mr N takes such an interest.
Porsche have had their problems ,but they appear to work very hard to sort things and especially keep things quiet.
I follow Noble with interest,I think it is a car that would interest me,but I need to see more R&D. I really do not intend to wind up or upset anyone but they do seem just a bit kit car like compared to Pork,
I think they are maybe a couple of years away from making me sign the cheque,a few reliability issues and sorting the sump out & I may well be there.
Porsche have had their problems ,but they appear to work very hard to sort things and especially keep things quiet.
I follow Noble with interest,I think it is a car that would interest me,but I need to see more R&D. I really do not intend to wind up or upset anyone but they do seem just a bit kit car like compared to Pork,
I think they are maybe a couple of years away from making me sign the cheque,a few reliability issues and sorting the sump out & I may well be there.
AJLintern said: Why couldn't they put the engine in longitudinally? I know it would mean using a different gearbox but would surely improve the already great handling and reduce the problems of oil surge in the sump.
Wouldn't a trans-axle gearbox shift the weight balance towards the rear somewhat?
You'd also have to make the the car a bit longer, or risk getting your ear caught in the cambelt
You can still get oil starvation problems with a longitudinal installation under heaving braking...
Jim
JimNoble said:
You can still get oil starvation problems with a longitudinal installation under heaving braking...
Jim
True, but you don't tend to be doing high revs when braking heavily...
Regarding the balance, you would move the weight slightly further back, but it would also be lower and spread over a larger area making oversteer more progressive.
Ideally one would have a dry sump system which would allow you to mount the engine even lower, improving handling even more
Rainman said: You take your german engineering and, quite frankly, you can push it!
Phil
Being in the position of owning two tutonic barges, and two British sports cars, I can totally realte to Phil's comments.
RR - you obviously don't get the plot do you? Sure the *price* is the same, but hey - if I wanted a car that was either tail happy, boring, and just plain "well built" I would buy a German SUV - oh **** I did....
If I wanted a real *sports* car, where the whole experience was based around knowning, talking to, and having a lot of laughs with the designer then I would - oh bugger me - I ****ing well bought one of those.
If you can't cope with the fact that some people in this large world don't want your fluffy tutonic version of *sports* then - well - frankly that's your loss - me, I love the quirks and fun that owning a true piece of motoring hisoty (for FFS McLaren used Lee's chassis to develop the F1 - I didn't see them ringing up the mass of 'yah - tis the way ve do fings - vou don't vunderstand - no - vit cannovt be ve vike vat....' that our German friends do.
I have no real issues with the likes of the 911, just that owners and "defenders" seem to forget that its 30+ years old and has had it's own serious serious issues - I would expect the M12 in 30 years time to be seriously different car.........
Still - if you want your over-engineered, bland, electronically controlled monster - then fine - me, I prefer the natural raw talent of Lee's creations.
J
Every case so far AFAIK has been dealt with on it's merits.
rsherwin said:Ok , sure I get the message loud and clear from all of you guys that Noble deal with these issues as pefrect English gentlemen UNDER WARRANTY but what about "my" used example - what would Noble do for me if the gearbox or engine bcame unusable when these are out of the original 12 month warranty?!?!
Rob.
Remember despite the warranty (like almost *all* manufacturers - Porsche included - see the recent EVO article) excluding track days - Noble have turned up to track days to sort out peoples cars, replaced large amounts of components where its was "debateable" what caused it, and worked dam hard to fix any issues that individual owners have had.
With the Noble I know I can ring Lee any day of the week and actually get through to him to discuss anything. I can just "pop in" on a Saturday and spend 2 hours chatting about the car, upgrades and mods, and have his total attention, and drop the car in for a warranty mod *to the factory*.
With BMW I get "oh - Sir - don't worry - I know that the fault may kill you, but the earliest we can book you in is 4 weeks time".
Yes - I *love* my X5, and have kept my Ur-Quattro for 10 years due to being totally smitten by it - but....... I want a real experience of a small maufacturer.
Hey - at the end of the day peeps no-one forces you to buy a Noble, and no-one hides the fact that there have only been 180 of the things built.
You take your choice, and you live with it - if you want a mass produced barge - buy a 911 (which is a fine fine car, but so it bloddy well should be after 30 years of development), if you want something individual then look towards british companies (TVR, Radical, Noble, Caterham etc. etc.)
J
CS - it's all part of the fun - really! For me, the fact that the *owners* have such a large say in the problems is a massive plus for me. Three weeks ago when I was up at the factory moi - little me - was discussing the pros and cons of the (then) design for the sump, its use, and the requirements of my car for *me*. I cannot imagine how my views would be taken into account with a *mass* manufacturer.....
clubsport said:I follow Noble with interest,I think it is a car that would interest me,but I need to see more R&D. I really do not intend to wind up or upset anyone but they do seem just a bit kit car like compared to Pork,
I think they are maybe a couple of years away from making me sign the cheque,a few reliability issues and sorting the sump out & I may well be there.
Remember that no-one asked me if I minded having to drive around my X5 for 4 weeks with a fault that potentially could kill me or my partner - that was *what was decreed and therefore that is what we do*. Depsite the AA and this site raising the issue and the fact that there was a recall - the dealer was ambilivalent at best (not really their fault - they just hadn't been told/authorised to do anything to fix it) and not having anyone or anything to ring. I tried BMW UK's head office and got nowhere.....
Now - if that is what £60m of developement gets you then for *anyone* to moan (particularly people that don't actually have a Noble - remember this thread stared out NOT as a moan - more as a FYI) about Nobles few £m's leading to the odd problem is amazing to me.
Simple staticstics will ensure that with small volume cars there will be more "visible" faults (and remember people rarely are vocal about things that go right) - to therefore dismiss a marque because of FYI postings like this is just, well, amazing......
Porkers are Porkers
Ultimas are Ultimas
Nobles are Nobles
etc.
Can't we just be happy that 20+ UK people have been employed in a petrolhead industry that otherwise wouldn't have been?
J
Joust, I guess I must be amazing then....to dismiss a marque on FYI postings.
I have been a porker nut since childhood,so realise a bias,which I really try to play down.I do from time to time buy other cars to see what I am missing.
The FYI postings are very helpful for people like me to follow.It is good that Noble is getting there,from what I have read the build quality & after sales care seem to be much more customer orientated than say TVR.
Noble really do seem to be progressing well and continued success will no doubt bring in new customers going forward.
As you say Porsche have years of development to fall back on,it is hopefully only a question of time passing for Noble to achieve this.
I know they have been around for a while,but with M10 models knocking around at 1/2 the price of the cheapest M12 it is not embellishing the new cars.
I have been a porker nut since childhood,so realise a bias,which I really try to play down.I do from time to time buy other cars to see what I am missing.
The FYI postings are very helpful for people like me to follow.It is good that Noble is getting there,from what I have read the build quality & after sales care seem to be much more customer orientated than say TVR.
Noble really do seem to be progressing well and continued success will no doubt bring in new customers going forward.
As you say Porsche have years of development to fall back on,it is hopefully only a question of time passing for Noble to achieve this.
I know they have been around for a while,but with M10 models knocking around at 1/2 the price of the cheapest M12 it is not embellishing the new cars.
Rainman said:
The whole point of this thread was to give some constructive feedback to existing and future M12 owners. Thanks for hijacking it (along with Roadrunner) with more Porsche v Noble diatribe, because this record is getting a little stuck.
Phil
The whole point of PistonHeads is debate and this is an open forum. The points I made were specifically to reply to earlier posts.
If people start saying Nobles are faster than 996tts (they are not - at least in a straight line - as Justin well knows) then they have already opened an area of discussion. As for Roadrunner, he - nor I - have been hijacking this thread... the thread has naturally evolved this way and you have had all the help M12 owners can currently give by the looks of it.
I know for a fact that Roadrunner (Paul) is looking to get a very high performance sports car soon, budget up to 80k, and his questions re build quality are valid - especially as your car has shown a major component failure. Yes, he has been looking at Porsches, but I'm sure the Noble is on his list to look at.
It is the open minded and friendly attitude of people like Joust that turn people onto Noble, and a narrow minded 'push your Porsche' attitude that does the exact opposite.
As for my point about a 993RS Porsche compared to an M12, I think this is extremely valid in terms of budget, performance and character. I mentioned this because many TVR owners (and some Noble ones by the look of it) 'get their record stuck' regarding 'Porsche vs whatever' comparisons because they compare products that do not compare. In the 993RS, I am giving you the comparison that is most accurate. This cuts a lot of that Porsche vs Noble crap out, as Boxsters have previously been dragged into this discussion for no good reason.
I hope you get your car fixed and that Noble sort it out for you, but I also hope that you are a lot more helpful to people like Roadrunner who are asking genuine questions and bringing up genuine points about Noble cars. And that you are not so narrow minded when it comes to Porsches, as some deserve more respect than you credit them with.
>> Edited by domster on Thursday 24th April 10:51
>> Edited by domster on Thursday 24th April 10:56
Domster, I am pleased to say that I have owned a Noble for 18 months. I also own a Mercedes C270 CDI which was bought new last October. Both have covered around 10,000 miles each. To date the Noble has never let me down. Yes, I have had a few niggles such as a sticky handbrake but nothing has been catastrophic. Unfortunately, I cannot say the same about the Merc. Last November the wiring loom failed without any warning leaving me stranded 60 miles from home. It then took Mercedes a month to sort out the problem. Since then the Merc has been fairly trouble free (except the auto wipers don't work properly and the radio works intermittently) but it has now developed a loud and annoying rattle from the centre consule. Not what you would expect from a quality car with low mileage.
Meanwhile the Noble is solidly built and there are no creaks or rattles coming from the cabin. It is one of the most rapid and sweetest handling cars I have ever driven and therefore I do put it through its paces which usually highlights inherent weaknesses in cars.
My point is, one swallow does not make a summer and that the number of satisfied Noble owners is multitudes greater than those who have been unfortunate to experience major problems.
Mind you comparing Noble to Mercedes in trying to sort out any problems is like chalk and cheese. Lee Noble is always attentive and genuinely wants to make sure the owner is well looked after. At Mercedes, however, the service manager at my local dealer once denied they even had my car in their workshop despite them having it for three weeks. What made it worse was that was the same dealer where I purchased the car.
Oh and my wife has a 3 series BMW. Nice car until it blew a head gasket after 18,000 miles.
Bottom line is, all cars have their troubles but the acid test is would you buy from the same manufacturer again. My vote:
Noble - YES
Mercedes - NO
QED
Meanwhile the Noble is solidly built and there are no creaks or rattles coming from the cabin. It is one of the most rapid and sweetest handling cars I have ever driven and therefore I do put it through its paces which usually highlights inherent weaknesses in cars.
My point is, one swallow does not make a summer and that the number of satisfied Noble owners is multitudes greater than those who have been unfortunate to experience major problems.
Mind you comparing Noble to Mercedes in trying to sort out any problems is like chalk and cheese. Lee Noble is always attentive and genuinely wants to make sure the owner is well looked after. At Mercedes, however, the service manager at my local dealer once denied they even had my car in their workshop despite them having it for three weeks. What made it worse was that was the same dealer where I purchased the car.
Oh and my wife has a 3 series BMW. Nice car until it blew a head gasket after 18,000 miles.
Bottom line is, all cars have their troubles but the acid test is would you buy from the same manufacturer again. My vote:
Noble - YES
Mercedes - NO
QED
Steve, I quite agree that Nobles are fantastically well built for what they are - I have never made any comment to the contrary. I like Nobles a lot (I have sat in one and could 'feel' the quality) and have never taken an 'anti-Noble' stance.
I have simply taken a pro-Porsche stance to balance the 'push your Porsche' diatribe, and to counter a few incorrect facts (both in theory and practice) with regard to a Noble being quicker than a 996TT.
Maybe Roadrunner has been more gladiatorial and needs convincing
For the record, I think modern Mercs ARE built like shit compared to years ago, and wouldn't own one, with perhaps the exception of the S500 which I liked as an all round package. The old shape E320 would be the one I'd have gone for. Also, I don't like the build or reliability of modern Porsches much. Which is why I mentioned a very specific model, the 993RS, from the days when IMHO Porsches were better built.
The only reason I originally posted, besides defending the slagging off Porsches were getting, was that you CAN have a fairly Noblesque ownership experience if you pick your Porsche carefully. OK, it won't be the same and Lee Noble won't cook you a bacon sarnie whilst discussing your modified swirlpot, but it will be similar. But you do get some of the things Noble can't provide, like the benefit of decades/millionsGBP of research and development.
It doesn't help Rainman much. He loves his Noble and so be it. But it may prove thought for people reading this thread about why they should choose a Noble over a Porsche or not. And if they did want the 'reassurance' of choosing a Porsche, which one they should go for without losing a little excitement in the process... If you drive a 993RS and it isn't as good as the Noble, buy the Noble. If driving pleasure is your game and it delivers more, then you've made the right decision. I've never driven a Noble so I can't make that choice for you.
I have seen many Porsche vs [insertbritishsportscarhere] arguments in my time on PH, and most have been stuck record affairs. I hate them and that is why I objected to Rainman's comments. If some british sports car enthusiasts were less narrow minded or short sighted they may see that there are one or two 'nazi staff wagens' that deliver the same thrill and excitement as good old Bully beef.
However, I could name the exciting Porsches, BMWs and Mercedes on one or possible two hands. They are that rare, but they do exist. All I ask is that people compare like with like, whether in terms of budget or function/ability, rather than comparing Boxsters with Tuscans etc. which is bound to go nowhere.
Finally, I should point out that I don't own a Porsche and have a deposit on an Ultima chassis, so I am speaking from as objective ground as possible.
Also, it would be fair to point out gearboxwise that the Ultima uses a Porsche gearbox (the first had a Renault one I believe) and that there have been no or very few instances of a G50 box breaking even with 644bhp going through it (made for a 300bhp donor car originally).
Fair play to Noble for sourcing a Ford engine and gearbox to such good effect, but maybe sophistication and larger production figures have their price. They could never do the Chevy/Porsche combo - and who'd want such a heavy old fashioned drivetrain in a sprightly thing like the M12 anyway? - but as a car gets more complicated, so it is more likely to break down.
I hope I haven't offended anyone and that these points are fair.
I have simply taken a pro-Porsche stance to balance the 'push your Porsche' diatribe, and to counter a few incorrect facts (both in theory and practice) with regard to a Noble being quicker than a 996TT.
Maybe Roadrunner has been more gladiatorial and needs convincing
For the record, I think modern Mercs ARE built like shit compared to years ago, and wouldn't own one, with perhaps the exception of the S500 which I liked as an all round package. The old shape E320 would be the one I'd have gone for. Also, I don't like the build or reliability of modern Porsches much. Which is why I mentioned a very specific model, the 993RS, from the days when IMHO Porsches were better built.
The only reason I originally posted, besides defending the slagging off Porsches were getting, was that you CAN have a fairly Noblesque ownership experience if you pick your Porsche carefully. OK, it won't be the same and Lee Noble won't cook you a bacon sarnie whilst discussing your modified swirlpot, but it will be similar. But you do get some of the things Noble can't provide, like the benefit of decades/millionsGBP of research and development.
It doesn't help Rainman much. He loves his Noble and so be it. But it may prove thought for people reading this thread about why they should choose a Noble over a Porsche or not. And if they did want the 'reassurance' of choosing a Porsche, which one they should go for without losing a little excitement in the process... If you drive a 993RS and it isn't as good as the Noble, buy the Noble. If driving pleasure is your game and it delivers more, then you've made the right decision. I've never driven a Noble so I can't make that choice for you.
I have seen many Porsche vs [insertbritishsportscarhere] arguments in my time on PH, and most have been stuck record affairs. I hate them and that is why I objected to Rainman's comments. If some british sports car enthusiasts were less narrow minded or short sighted they may see that there are one or two 'nazi staff wagens' that deliver the same thrill and excitement as good old Bully beef.
However, I could name the exciting Porsches, BMWs and Mercedes on one or possible two hands. They are that rare, but they do exist. All I ask is that people compare like with like, whether in terms of budget or function/ability, rather than comparing Boxsters with Tuscans etc. which is bound to go nowhere.
Finally, I should point out that I don't own a Porsche and have a deposit on an Ultima chassis, so I am speaking from as objective ground as possible.
Also, it would be fair to point out gearboxwise that the Ultima uses a Porsche gearbox (the first had a Renault one I believe) and that there have been no or very few instances of a G50 box breaking even with 644bhp going through it (made for a 300bhp donor car originally).
Fair play to Noble for sourcing a Ford engine and gearbox to such good effect, but maybe sophistication and larger production figures have their price. They could never do the Chevy/Porsche combo - and who'd want such a heavy old fashioned drivetrain in a sprightly thing like the M12 anyway? - but as a car gets more complicated, so it is more likely to break down.
I hope I haven't offended anyone and that these points are fair.
We forgive you
Domster - a elegant set of prose yet again The 993RS vs [insert 40-50k british sportscar here] is a very very interesting one. 993RS's prices are now at a price where they make a very interesting decision. It's a bit like where the Elise MK2 is now at 15-17k in a reverse-sort-of-way - do you go for the brand new reliable MX5/MR2, or the MK2? If you bring the MK1 into play then things really get complicated!
There is no way a Noble will keep up with a 996tt in a straight line, I know - I've been behind one. However, the Noble isn't designed in the same way - the 996tt is a beautiful design with a very very slippery shape - the Noble makes use of pure aerodynamics. Take the wings off a F1 car and it's go 30% ish more top speed (IIRC). I'd be interested in a 996tt vs Lee's finest though on a good mixed circuit - anyone got any times?
Valid comparisons are helpful (and probably why I still buy Autocar every week...) - silly ones are just a bit boring
J
Domster - a elegant set of prose yet again
The 993RS vs [insert 40-50k british sportscar here] is a very very interesting one. 993RS's prices are now at a price where they make a very interesting decision. It's a bit like where the Elise MK2 is now at 15-17k in a reverse-sort-of-way - do you go for the brand new reliable MX5/MR2, or the MK2? If you bring the MK1 into play then things really get complicated! There is no way a Noble will keep up with a 996tt in a straight line, I know - I've been behind one
. However, the Noble isn't designed in the same way - the 996tt is a beautiful design with a very very slippery shape - the Noble makes use of pure aerodynamics. Take the wings off a F1 car and it's go 30% ish more top speed (IIRC). I'd be interested in a 996tt vs Lee's finest though on a good mixed circuit - anyone got any times? Valid comparisons are helpful (and probably why I still buy Autocar every week...) - silly ones are just a bit boring
J
This thread is hard reading....
To add my views and facts..
Lee Noble has designed many cars of which one is the Ultima (Maclarean used this car as a test bed for the F1's development and so did Aston martin recently), and another is the Ascari. So he HAS explored most engine/gearbox and layout configurations.
A few gearbox failures are hardly cause for a 'poor engineering' label. I know of at least four Porsche gearboxes that have failed for various reasons.
This leaves me in a bit of a quandry as I obviously own an Ultima, but I also have a Porsche Boxter S
.
Nobles are loverly creations that in my view fall between Ultima's and Porsche's, all are excellent marques with slightly different target markets.
Oh....
Joust
If I do manage Sunday, I intend to show YOU the back end of one of those spoilers, to see how you like it
>> Edited by ultimaandy on Friday 25th April 14:46
>> Edited by ultimaandy on Friday 25th April 16:09
To add my views and facts..
Lee Noble has designed many cars of which one is the Ultima (Maclarean used this car as a test bed for the F1's development and so did Aston martin recently), and another is the Ascari. So he HAS explored most engine/gearbox and layout configurations.
A few gearbox failures are hardly cause for a 'poor engineering' label. I know of at least four Porsche gearboxes that have failed for various reasons.
This leaves me in a bit of a quandry as I obviously own an Ultima, but I also have a Porsche Boxter S
. Nobles are loverly creations that in my view fall between Ultima's and Porsche's, all are excellent marques with slightly different target markets.
Oh....
Joust
If I do manage Sunday, I intend to show YOU the back end of one of those spoilers, to see how you like it
>> Edited by ultimaandy on Friday 25th April 14:46
>> Edited by ultimaandy on Friday 25th April 16:09
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