The end of PCP deal!
Discussion
jrinns said:
when you dispose of the car, isn’t there tax to pay on the value of the sale ? i take it you used the year 1 allowance for the Ev to reduce corporations tax ?
Yes, you will now be charged 25% tax on the sale value, whereas you will only have got a 19% tax benefit when you bought it - so you will potentially pay back more tax than you ended up saving. That’s why I sold mine (IX) before 5th April.Kazandy37 said:
Yes, you will now be charged 25% tax on the sale value, whereas you will only have got a 19% tax benefit when you bought it - so you will potentially pay back more tax than you ended up saving. That’s why I sold mine (IX) before 5th April.
Well not really, as you’ll be selling the car at likely a substantially lower price. I.e. 25% of a lower figure is likely less than 19% of new invoice price. Also given new car prices have shot up, the replacement is likely going to cost more. Just makes sense to keep the car you’ve got and see it depreciate a bit more. Probably see Corporation tax back down next year in the run up to the election anywayEdited by garystoybox on Sunday 14th May 00:39
ChrisW. said:
I think the great unknown with Ev's is battery longevity / acceptable degradation of performance / potential recycling-replacement costs etc.
At one time it was thought that failing batteries could be managed by replacing only failing modules, but because of internal resistances which need to be matched (all new or all similarly aged is OK) ... then this is a poor option requiring the trade-out of the old battery for a power bank or recycling (which costs more than building a new one if it can be done) ... and the purchase of a new one for more than the value of the car unless the secondhand price was to reflect this ... which as mentioned elsewhere it does not currently for fossil fuel driven cars.
Apologies for the very long sentence !
I was told it costs more environmentally to build a mid-sized electric car than it costs the build the same IC engined car and run it for 120,000 miles .... and the IC engined car will be inexpensively maintainable where currently the electric car will have to be? ... and it will have the additional environmental impact of around 30kWh per 100 miles (40,000 kWh to the same 120,000 miles).
That’s terrible, I’m sure once the politicians realise they will put in place a plan to ban EV’s by 2035 at the very latest and force everyone into ICE vehicles, I mean that would be the only sensible course of action.At one time it was thought that failing batteries could be managed by replacing only failing modules, but because of internal resistances which need to be matched (all new or all similarly aged is OK) ... then this is a poor option requiring the trade-out of the old battery for a power bank or recycling (which costs more than building a new one if it can be done) ... and the purchase of a new one for more than the value of the car unless the secondhand price was to reflect this ... which as mentioned elsewhere it does not currently for fossil fuel driven cars.
Apologies for the very long sentence !
I was told it costs more environmentally to build a mid-sized electric car than it costs the build the same IC engined car and run it for 120,000 miles .... and the IC engined car will be inexpensively maintainable where currently the electric car will have to be? ... and it will have the additional environmental impact of around 30kWh per 100 miles (40,000 kWh to the same 120,000 miles).
If correct, one has to wonder what is driving current policy ?
Irrespective this policy is a nightmare from a manufacturing perspective, it is currently a nightmare from a recycling perspective, Ferrari have said that current battery technology is incompatible with sports cars, existing EV owners trying to do long journeys are still often finding the charging structure incompetent ... and we see reports of delays in newly built green electricity generation suffering long delays in connection to the grid.
Where is the joined-up thinking ?
Irrespective this policy is a nightmare from a manufacturing perspective, it is currently a nightmare from a recycling perspective, Ferrari have said that current battery technology is incompatible with sports cars, existing EV owners trying to do long journeys are still often finding the charging structure incompetent ... and we see reports of delays in newly built green electricity generation suffering long delays in connection to the grid.
Where is the joined-up thinking ?
Pleasing Ferrari is not part of the agenda.
Yes of course there are challenges but nothing that can’t and won’t be overcome.
The fact is for a lot of people EVs are a great solution right now. For others less so and for a significant number of people buying an EV now would be a mistake.
But don’t keep spouting rubbish about battery life, range anxiety, recycling and pollution from electricity generation to make you feel better about being in one of he latter categories.
Yes of course there are challenges but nothing that can’t and won’t be overcome.
The fact is for a lot of people EVs are a great solution right now. For others less so and for a significant number of people buying an EV now would be a mistake.
But don’t keep spouting rubbish about battery life, range anxiety, recycling and pollution from electricity generation to make you feel better about being in one of he latter categories.
Why personalise this ?
Your rubbish or mine ?
And yes, I do have an electric car and have since the launch of the i3 ten years ago.
Of course all these issues are solvable ... my question is, where currently is the joined up thinking and how do we accelerate this ?
In the meantime, I think it's wrong to sell people untruths about electric cars.
Your rubbish or mine ?
And yes, I do have an electric car and have since the launch of the i3 ten years ago.
Of course all these issues are solvable ... my question is, where currently is the joined up thinking and how do we accelerate this ?
In the meantime, I think it's wrong to sell people untruths about electric cars.
ChrisW. said:
Why personalise this ?
Your rubbish or mine ?
And yes, I do have an electric car and have since the launch of the i3 ten years ago.
Of course all these issues are solvable ... my question is, where currently is the joined up thinking and how do we accelerate this ?
In the meantime, I think it's wrong to sell people untruths about electric cars.
Well when you make such egregiously false statements as Your rubbish or mine ?
And yes, I do have an electric car and have since the launch of the i3 ten years ago.
Of course all these issues are solvable ... my question is, where currently is the joined up thinking and how do we accelerate this ?
In the meantime, I think it's wrong to sell people untruths about electric cars.
ChrisW. said:
I was told it costs more environmentally to build a mid-sized electric car than it costs the build the same IC engined car and run it for 120,000 miles .... and the IC engined car will be inexpensively maintainable where currently the electric car will have to be? ... and it will have the additional environmental impact of around 30kWh per 100 miles (40,000 kWh to the same 120,000 miles).
What do you expect?starsky67 said:
Pleasing Ferrari is not part of the agenda.
Yes of course there are challenges but nothing that can’t and won’t be overcome.
The fact is for a lot of people EVs are a great solution right now. For others less so and for a significant number of people buying an EV now would be a mistake.
But don’t keep spouting rubbish about battery life, range anxiety, recycling and pollution from electricity generation to make you feel better about being in one of he latter categories.
Your last sentence , why does he need to feel better , I have decided an EV doesn't meet my requirements currently (I doubt they ever will) so Im not having one and I dont feel bad about it at allYes of course there are challenges but nothing that can’t and won’t be overcome.
The fact is for a lot of people EVs are a great solution right now. For others less so and for a significant number of people buying an EV now would be a mistake.
But don’t keep spouting rubbish about battery life, range anxiety, recycling and pollution from electricity generation to make you feel better about being in one of he latter categories.
Charlie_1 said:
starsky67 said:
Pleasing Ferrari is not part of the agenda.
Yes of course there are challenges but nothing that can’t and won’t be overcome.
The fact is for a lot of people EVs are a great solution right now. For others less so and for a significant number of people buying an EV now would be a mistake.
But don’t keep spouting rubbish about battery life, range anxiety, recycling and pollution from electricity generation to make you feel better about being in one of he latter categories.
Your last sentence , why does he need to feel better , I have decided an EV doesn't meet my requirements currently (I doubt they ever will) so Im not having one and I dont feel bad about it at allYes of course there are challenges but nothing that can’t and won’t be overcome.
The fact is for a lot of people EVs are a great solution right now. For others less so and for a significant number of people buying an EV now would be a mistake.
But don’t keep spouting rubbish about battery life, range anxiety, recycling and pollution from electricity generation to make you feel better about being in one of he latter categories.
Note these comments are always prefaced by 'I've heard that' or 'I have a friend/ acquaintance/ dog walker who' in an attempt to distance themselves from the nonsense that follows, eg
ChrisW. said:
I was told it costs more environmentally to build a mid-sized electric car than it costs the build the same IC engined car and run it for 120,000 miles .... and the IC engined car will be inexpensively maintainable where currently the electric car will have to be? ... and it will have the additional environmental impact of around 30kWh per 100 miles (40,000 kWh to the same 120,000 miles).
I was told ... and I am inclined to believe it, you evidently cannot but where is your comparison ? / evidence ?
The reason I think it's possible is based from my own experience of reducing battery capacity over time, the current lack of battery recycling capability, the horrendous cost of a replacement battery ... each of which may effectively write the the electric car off over a comparatively short time and still the manufacturers continue to sell the dream of lower costs and environmental rectitude ...
By comparison the incremental cost of manufacturing a conventional car and maintaining it into the very long term is surprisingly low ....
I do agree that there is a role for electric vehicles, but it makes little sense to me with current battery technology in simply creating bigger heavier batteries / cars because the charging network cannot be trusted. Isn't this where the market is going ?
The reason I think it's possible is based from my own experience of reducing battery capacity over time, the current lack of battery recycling capability, the horrendous cost of a replacement battery ... each of which may effectively write the the electric car off over a comparatively short time and still the manufacturers continue to sell the dream of lower costs and environmental rectitude ...
By comparison the incremental cost of manufacturing a conventional car and maintaining it into the very long term is surprisingly low ....
I do agree that there is a role for electric vehicles, but it makes little sense to me with current battery technology in simply creating bigger heavier batteries / cars because the charging network cannot be trusted. Isn't this where the market is going ?
Edited by ChrisW. on Monday 15th May 18:23
ChrisW. said:
I was told ... and I can believe it, you evidently cannot but where is your comparison ? / evidence ?
The reason I can believe it is my own experience of reducing battery capacity over time, the current lack of battery recycling capability, the horrendous cost of a replacement battery ... which effectively write the car off and your evidence is ?
By comparison the incremental cost of manufacturing a conventional car is surprisingly low .... as are the components versus a new battery.
My evidence that that you don’t have to run an EV to (anything like) 120,000 miles to reach breakeven is, amongst other things:The reason I can believe it is my own experience of reducing battery capacity over time, the current lack of battery recycling capability, the horrendous cost of a replacement battery ... which effectively write the car off and your evidence is ?
By comparison the incremental cost of manufacturing a conventional car is surprisingly low .... as are the components versus a new battery.
https://www.volvocars.com/images/v/-/media/Market-...
https://www.polestar.com/dato-assets/11286/1680165...
https://worldwide.kia.com/int/company/sustainabili...
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportat...
Where did your ‘evidence’ come from? Who told you in such credible terms that you dismiss established analyses such as these?
Edited by starsky67 on Monday 15th May 18:20
starsky67 said:
ChrisW. said:
I was told ... and I can believe it, you evidently cannot but where is your comparison ? / evidence ?
The reason I can believe it is my own experience of reducing battery capacity over time, the current lack of battery recycling capability, the horrendous cost of a replacement battery ... which effectively write the car off and your evidence is ?
By comparison the incremental cost of manufacturing a conventional car is surprisingly low .... as are the components versus a new battery.
My evidence that that you don’t have to run an EV to (anything like) 120,000 miles to reach breakeven is, amongst other things:The reason I can believe it is my own experience of reducing battery capacity over time, the current lack of battery recycling capability, the horrendous cost of a replacement battery ... which effectively write the car off and your evidence is ?
By comparison the incremental cost of manufacturing a conventional car is surprisingly low .... as are the components versus a new battery.
https://www.volvocars.com/images/v/-/media/Market-...
https://www.polestar.com/dato-assets/11286/1680165...
https://worldwide.kia.com/int/company/sustainabili...
https://www.reuters.com/business/autos-transportat...
Where did your ‘evidence’ come from? Who told you in such credible terms that you dismiss established analyses such as these?
Edited by starsky67 on Monday 15th May 18:20
However, I would point out that what I was told was that a petrol car + 120,000 miles of running had the same environmental cost as building an equivalent electric car with zero mile on the clock ...
Edited by ChrisW. on Monday 15th May 18:28
ChrisW. said:
I haven't read them yet ... now this is becoming a sensible discussion (under the wrong heading !).
However, I would point out that what I was told was that a petrol car + 120,000 miles of running had the same environmental cost as building an equivalent electric car with zero mile on the clock ...
Who told you that?However, I would point out that what I was told was that a petrol car + 120,000 miles of running had the same environmental cost as building an equivalent electric car with zero mile on the clock ...
Edited by ChrisW. on Monday 15th May 18:28
It’s wrong by the way.
Even from the now quite pessimistic Volvo report, producing an EV creates around an additional 6 tonnes of CO2.
Take a standard range Polestar 2 and find a comparable ICE vehicle, say a BMW 320i, that produces 154g/km which is around 256 g/ mile. Add in the widely accepted adjustment of 30% for true well to wheel to account for the emissions from actually extracting, refining and shipping the petrol and you get 333g/ mile
So running your BMW for 120,000 miles will emit 39 tonnes of CO2 compared with the extra 6 tonnes from manufacturing the EV.
Even if you add in the electricity used to power the Polestar (around 8 tonnes at UK grid mix levels) it’s still better than the ICE by around 25 tonnes.
Again , who told you this? I hope you don’t take financial advice as easily from them.
Well there is a lot of reading there ... a shame that you haven't pulled out the relevant material.
I have scanned through and the Reuters evaluation may disagree with the analysis from Kia and Polestar / Volvo ... whilst neither Kia nor Polestar / Volvo have taken any account for the current lack of technology to recycle the very substantial environmental cost of the Li-Ion battery, other than to suggest using the removed batteries in lower grade applications for as long as they can, and without suggesting a replacement option for cars at the time of battery "failure" which would otherwise force the recycling of the complete vehicle. Batteries are currently guaranteed for 8 years with an acceptable degradation over this period of 20+ % ? As the owner of a Kia e-Niro I think this is about right ... but will vary according to the manufacturer. Degradation appears to be based on time, not mileage though there is also a 100,000 ?mile limit on the warranty, whilst the CO2 life calculation is based on 200,000 Km ... for the whole car ?
I have screen shots which I'll upload to Photobucket and link to ... but I need to have another look for my thoughts which I will append
I have scanned through and the Reuters evaluation may disagree with the analysis from Kia and Polestar / Volvo ... whilst neither Kia nor Polestar / Volvo have taken any account for the current lack of technology to recycle the very substantial environmental cost of the Li-Ion battery, other than to suggest using the removed batteries in lower grade applications for as long as they can, and without suggesting a replacement option for cars at the time of battery "failure" which would otherwise force the recycling of the complete vehicle. Batteries are currently guaranteed for 8 years with an acceptable degradation over this period of 20+ % ? As the owner of a Kia e-Niro I think this is about right ... but will vary according to the manufacturer. Degradation appears to be based on time, not mileage though there is also a 100,000 ?mile limit on the warranty, whilst the CO2 life calculation is based on 200,000 Km ... for the whole car ?
I have screen shots which I'll upload to Photobucket and link to ... but I need to have another look for my thoughts which I will append
But could you please just comment on the basic maths that contradict what you were told (and by whom?)
Manufacturing an EV emits an additional 6 tonnes of CO2
Driving it for 120,000 miles emits a further 8 tonnes
Driving a similar ICE vehicle for 120,000 miles emits 39 tonnes
Manufacturing an EV emits an additional 6 tonnes of CO2
Driving it for 120,000 miles emits a further 8 tonnes
Driving a similar ICE vehicle for 120,000 miles emits 39 tonnes
Edited by starsky67 on Tuesday 16th May 03:31
But there is a lot more to consider than just the CO2 emissions from the burning of the fuel.
Which incidentally is very dependent upon the source of the electricity which is being burnt and the fundamental efficiency of the vehicles themselves.
I stated what I was told which is truthful. Your maths is correct in principle but in my view, naive in application.
But all this has opened the means for a broad conversation, which I appreciate.
And the estimated comparison of the environmental impact only in CO2 terms by Volvo (owned by Polestar) of their XC40 and electric equivalent to 200,000Km ... after which they assume that all cars will be recycled ... which is almost certainly not the case.
But, both cars may require a new battery .... the electric one costing vastly more than that for the petrol car ...
The truth is we need green electricity, we need more capacity on the grid ... and we need drivers to drive smaller cars more efficiently.
Using less and building more electrical capacity starts to solve the problem now ... a rush to replace fossil fuels with electric vehicles now without joined up thinking on the systems required to support this, is in my opinion a naive solution.
Big batteries in very heavy "do it all" cars is surely folly ... in my view.
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