The end of PCP deal!

[MDUBZ]

@chris Cmd+shift+4 on a Mac , we don’t need to see your whole screen (you’re welcome)

[ChrisW.]

Many thanks

Herewith a link to info on LI-Ion battery recycling ...

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2021/05/electric-ve...

[starsky67]

ChrisW. said:

But there is a lot more to consider than just the CO2 emissions from the burning of the fuel.

Which incidentally is very dependent upon the source of the electricity which is being burnt and the fundamental efficiency of the vehicles themselves.

I stated what I was told which is truthful. Your maths is correct in principle but in my view, naive in application.

But all this has opened the means for a broad conversation, which I appreciate.

The Damien Ernst stuff has been widely debunked (in part by him when he was forced to retract his original very speculative claims, although his estimates are still wide of most experts) so it's not helpful to bring that into the mix.

https://innovationorigins.com/en/correcting-misinf...

My calculations were based the current UK grid mix which is around 193g CO2/kWh of electricity produced. And that's only getting better over time, even as electricity demand rises.

https://www.aquaswitch.co.uk/blog/carbon-intensity...




You mention the efficiency of the vehicle? That's where EV's are massively better than ICE, with a round trip efficiency of around 70-80% for the energy used compared to as little as 15% for ICE. The clue is in htermodynamics. How much heat do ICE vehicles produce? How much effort goes into cooling them compared to EV's. In the large part heat is waste when it comes to transport, and no amount of refining ICE technology can get around this basic principle.

Yes, it's a very complicated mix of issues, but for all the very valid criticisms of EV's such as cost, infrastructure for recharging and range, to argue against them on pure environmental grounds is, I'm afraid, choosing the wrong target. (So is weight by the way, weight has surprisingly little impact on the efficiency of EV's, unlike for ICE vehicles.)

But good to discuss, of course.

[ChrisW.]

I totally agree that heat is generally an unwanted and energy intensive waste product from the ICE ... which makes Ev vehicles ideal for short journey applications where the IC engine barely gets warm and is then extremely inefficient and may be damaged by frequent short journeys.

Regarding mass making little difference to economy, do you have a source for that ? It is not what I would have expected ?

Chris

[starsky67]

ChrisW. said:

I totally agree that heat is generally an unwanted and energy intensive waste product from the ICE ... which makes Ev vehicles ideal for short journey applications where the IC engine barely gets warm and is then extremely inefficient and may be damaged by frequent short journeys.

Regarding mass making little difference to economy, do you have a source for that ? It is not what I would have expected ?

Chris

Look at the relative efficiencies (m/kWh) of various EV's and ICE vehicles of differing weights:

Audi eTron GT 2374kg approx 3m/kWh
VW id.3 1730Kg approx 3.6m/kWh

The bigger car is 37% heavier but only 20% less efficient

Compare that to petrol cars say a Golf 2.0 petrol with an Audi A7 3.0 petrol probably similar delta in size and performance

Golf 1340kg 44mpg
A7 3.0 1815kg 30mpg

The bigger car is 35% heavier but a whopping 46% less efficient

Obviously it's only a rough comparison but you get the picture that extra weight in an EV has far less effect on efficiency. This is largely because of the regenerative braking. In a heavy car you use a lot more energy to accelerate it which is then lost on braking. In an EV, a good proportion of this is recovered. Weight does have an effect on rolling resistance etc but it's not that great.

What really, really matters for an EV is drag which is why you are starting to see all these dolphin shaped super slippery designs like the Ionic 6 and the MB concept car, not to mention the Apterra (10m/kWh claimed!). (It also matters for ICE vehicles, but they are so inefficient anyway that relatively speaking it is much less relevant.)


Regarding the heat, actually the ICE engine remains inefficient due to heat wastage throughout its cycle. It's not the absolute temperature of the engine that matters, it's the rate at which it produces heat, as this represents wasted energy (save for the small amount that is used to heat the cabin on cold days only). Thermodynamics explains why even the best ICE powertrain cannot hope to approach the energy efficiency of an EV, even with the EV being heavier due to the battery.

It's counterintuitive granted, but a lot of what we thought we knew about vehicles needs rethinking when you look at a racially different approach such as an EV. For EV's also, hard acceleration and braking (ie spirited driving) has far less effect on 'fuel' consumption than in an ICE vehicle. That at least should be good news for driving enthusiasts!

regards

[ChrisW.]

There was talk of solid state batteries ... do you have any information on those ?

How efficient is regenerative braking ... 30% ?

Is there anything that can be done to encourage Grid competence / charging structure and battery recycling to match the 2030 ambition which is forcing the hand of manufacturers ?

Otherwise many may prefer to keep their "old" car ?

P.S. The easiest number to understand in the simple CO2 calculation is the energy equivalence of a litre of petrol. If this is as stated 10kWh (easily verified) then a 50l fuel tank is filled with 500kWh of energy ... so 350? miles of fuel = approximately 100kWh of battery electric ?
My eNiro has averaged 4.2 miles per kWh over the last 20,000 miles ...

Edited by ChrisW. on Tuesday 16th May 22:17

[starsky67]

I don’t have any special insight into solid state batteries, however it’s clear that batteries are improving all the time,

Regen braking is generally around 70% efficient (ie you can recover 70% of the kinetic energy lost by braking NOT 70% of the total energy.) ICE vehicles by contrast are 0% efficient in this respect.

https://electrek.co/2018/04/24/regenerative-brakin...

[ChrisW.]

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220105-lithiu...

This is the most recent article I can find on the question of battery recycling ... which might be the crux of the logic on electric cars, though their manufacture from Zero emissions power will be a big help (still not completely zero because the generation systems have to be built and run!).

On cost, what can you do when a 7 seater hybrid Dacia Jogger can be bought for £22.5 k ... it's not a bad car, cheap to run and built in Europe .. by comparison the anticipated Porsche K1 electric SUV is likely to cost £190k !!!

[starsky67]

ChrisW. said:

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20220105-lithiu...

This is the most recent article I can find on the question of battery recycling ... which might be the crux of the logic on electric cars, though their manufacture from Zero emissions power will be a big help (still not completely zero because the generation systems have to be built and run!).

On cost, what can you do when a 7 seater hybrid Dacia Jogger can be bought for £22.5 k ... it's not a bad car, cheap to run and built in Europe .. by comparison the anticipated Porsche K1 electric SUV is likely to cost £190k !!!

EVs are more environmentally friendly even if you don’t consider recycling the batteries. That only increases the advantage.

You really consider comparing a Dacia with a Porsche the correct comparison, really?

The KIA EV6 GT is £59K while a Lamborghini Urus is £200K (and slower 0-60)

What’s your point?

[ChrisW.]

My point is that if somebody needs an inexpensive car electric is an currently an unlikely choice (particularly taking battery degradation into consideration) ... if somebody needs very long range it is very expensive (cheaper options to the Porsche are obviously available) ... so electric as it stands is a complicated choice unless drivers can either afford multiple cars or ... the "away from home" charging and battery recycling / potential exchange issues are resolved.

This choice is about far more than CO2 ... and forcing the market into a wholesale electric transition without synchronising the solutions required risks dislocating the whole market sector.

This dislocation substantially slows progress ... as I believe we will see.

P.S. The cars I originally mentioned were highlighted in last months What Car mag ... two ends of the same market.

Edited by ChrisW. on Wednesday 17th May 09:40

[Fnumber1user]

starsky67 said:

I don’t have any special insight into solid state batteries, however it’s clear that batteries are improving all the time,

Regen braking is generally around 70% efficient (ie you can recover 70% of the kinetic energy lost by braking NOT 70% of the total energy.) ICE vehicles by contrast are 0% efficient in this respect.

https://electrek.co/2018/04/24/regenerative-brakin...

You don't appear to take in to account hybrid vehicles at all, where regeneration of their batteries certainly does take place when braking (BMW etc).

[ChrisW.]

Regenerative braking ... the compete cycle back into KE surely cannot be 70% ... not that this is a deal breaker because it is all plus.

1. Regeneration is not 100%
2. Energy absorption into a battery or capacitor is not 100%
3. KE re-generation from electrical storage is not 100%.

??

[starsky67]

ChrisW. said:

Regenerative braking ... the compete cycle back into KE surely cannot be 70% ... not that this is a deal breaker because it is all plus.

1. Regeneration is not 100%
2. Energy absorption into a battery or capacitor is not 100%
3. KE re-generation from electrical storage is not 100%.

??

If you read the link I provided it justifies this figure along the lines you say.

Note this is 70% of the kinetic energy shed by slowing down NOT 70% of the original energy used to accelerate of course.

Nevertheless it’s a lot better than 0% which is what you recover with an ICE vehicle

Yes hybrids can also do this but remember you need to have an powertrain capable of harvesting the power which tends to arrive in short peaks. Most cars can brake faster than they can accelerate and so the bigger the motor and battery the better. And obviously AWD is better to harvest energy from both axles.

So high performance cars such as the EV6 GT can harvest 300kWp this equates to around 400hp! I don’t think any hybrids have 400bhp electric motors.

Hybrids tend to have smaller motors, inverters and batteries so are much less good at regenerative braking for this reason.

Edited by starsky67 on Wednesday 17th May 10:30

Edited by starsky67 on Wednesday 17th May 10:38

[Maxym]

FFS. Topic drift big-time.

[GT4RS]

Caporky said:

I bought a T- turbo new for £128k on PCP via the ltd company. PCP ends in Nov balloon is £76k.

10k enjoyable miles- yes the heater went and car play glitches are sort of dealt with but hasn’t been too bad it’s still one of the best cars I’ve owned.

The 180m range (at 85%) hasn’t bothered me nor the lack of off street parking it’s a great car IMO. What do I do with the balloon?

300 for sale on pistonheads and talk of plummeting prices. For me there is really nothing else of interest so do I take the plunge at £76k? I’m tempted with the Macan EV next year but can’t help but feel these EV’s will be prave pills before we know it so might be better to cut the cord and say goodbye?

What are others doing?

Bail out of it and buy a V8, you know it makes more sense!

[ds666]

Maxym said:

FFS. Topic drift big-time.

I was thinking the same . Every EV thread seems to develop into “they aren’t as green as you think “

Maybe we all know and don’t care . Maybe we all know and do care . Maybe we don’t agree .

But , what the f.. have all the comments got to do with the end of a pcp deal ??

Go and start your own threads .

[starsky67]

ds666 said:

Maxym said:

FFS. Topic drift big-time.

I was thinking the same . Every EV thread seems to develop into “they aren’t as green as you think “

Maybe we all know and don’t care . Maybe we all know and do care . Maybe we don’t agree .

But , what the f.. have all the comments got to do with the end of a pcp deal ??

Go and start your own threads .

Unfortunately they already have, but they pop up to berate the shortcomings of EV's at every possible opportunity nevertheless.

[ChrisW.]

At the end of a PCP one option is to change your car ... electric / hybrid / or IC is 100% of that choice, but I agree it should be another thread. And soon a forced choice ?

It would be great if this discussion could simply be transferred under an appropriate heading but ??

Is there an "optimum" hybrid ? The new Mazda MX 30 R-Ev appears to be very innovative with its rotary IC charger and minimum weight due it being only electrically driven, but maybe you also have the worst of all worlds since the electric range is short and many miles may therefore be done with an IC engine creating the electricity for the electric motors to burn. So far as I can see no mpg has been quoted for this ...

[Blue62]

I’ve lost money on cars and I’ve made money on cars (not much) and as much as I’d like to see my 4S worth more right now, I accept the market is falling.

The EV market is still in its infancy and there’ll be more bumps along the road, but as an everyday car for someone who only occasionally needs to use public charging, it’s one of the very best cars I’ve owned. I live on the south coast and have solar, making it very cheap to run, the performance and handling is superb, I love the looks and the practicality and still can’t work out how a two tonne car, with a long wheelbase can be as much fun as any 911 I’ve owned.

I’ve been lucky in that I’ve had no problems and now that a recall has been carried out on the braking system, my only criticism has been removed. Witter on all you like about EV’s, residuals, the environment, but the plain fact is that as an everyday car it is pretty much perfect for me. I reckon I’m saving @£7k pa on running costs over my last daily, I’m doing a little bit for the environment (I don’t believe the naysayers) and enjoying the car every time I step into it, so a few points above average depreciation (for now) is not going to put me off and nor should it anyone else in a similar position.

[deutsche.diagnostics]

Porsche Nottingham said that sales for their EVs have fallen through the floor.

Basically, most were buying the Taycan because it was a way to be driving a Porsche, the money saving from BIK and fuel, combined with low rate finance deals meant you could be in one for the same sort of price as a 330 Touring, or whatever floated your boat, as overall ownership cost.
Man maths convinced the person who needed to be convinced it would be financially moronic to chose anything other than a Taycan.

But now we have interest rates that wipe out any BIK savings and charging rates that no longer seem to be that cost effective for the many who need to charge away from home so things have changed.


People are still buying the 911s, the toys, but it seems they are downgrading the every day car.


It is a shame there is not more incentives to own hybrids, with newer ones doing 50+ miles on EV I bet many would still end up doing 80% of their mileage in EV mode.
I reckon more people would be happy to jump into a hybrid compared to an EV, I would not have another EV, just didn't work for me, but I would consider a hybrid. If the incentives were there, people would buy.



I wonder how many who own Taycans would have bought their first EV if Porsche had not offered one?

How many Taycan owners would consider a Hybrid if the cost and benefits were the same as the EV? One that does 60 miles on a charge and then has a flat six as well for longer runs and for when you want to experience what that offers.