Discussion
finmac said:
Interesting, care to expand on why you don’t think private punters will take to them please - genuinely interested to gauge people’s views.
For me it will be about “once bitten twice shy”those that got into and out of a taycan would either have lost money or disappointed with issues or both.
with 600+ taycans currently for sale on AT it seems that a good few of those people aren’t really porsche people. What are they driving now?
For me I like the Macan EV. It could easily become my daily for many years only if the price is acceptable and that can only really happen if the 600+ speculators stay out of the game this time. It’s a very capable mode of transport if it all works it’s not an investment object.
finmac said:
Interesting, care to expand on why you don’t think private punters will take to them please - genuinely interested to gauge people’s views.
from what i see 95% of cars are owned as company cars or by business owners. they are in the main a way to save paying the leeches that are the govenment more of their hard earnt cash. as a private owner the extra cost of ev over ice doesnt make sense. if you calculate the savings in cost of electric over ice, unless you are doing significant amounts of miles it will take a long time to recover that. saying that using public charging isnt even cheap. when i ran a taycan turbo s ct for 4-5 months, public charging was costing me just as much, if not more than petrol!also there is the big inconvenience of having to constantly charge these things. it is a pain lugging these big cables around everywhere and a pain having to try and constantly find places to charge them.
also with the big hits ev's are taking depreciation wise it wont make financial sense to most to buy.
macan sales will have the added problem that range rover are launching their ev's shortly which will take sales from them.
kmpowell said:
finmac said:
So, the million dollar question with the Macan EV concerns desireability/volume and ultimately residuals. What’s the consensus regarding whether these will tank second hand like the taycan did, or will they be a safer place to stick one’s hard earned cash?
The answer to that question will be revealed when the market knows how much range will it have from its 100kWh battery on this new PPE platform.Tesla and Polestar have this qtr released 400+ WLTP miles from 75kWh and 82kWh batteries respectively.
Some others:
Mercedes - 376 miles from 90kWh / 452 miles from 107.8kWh
Lotus - 373 from 112kWh
BMW - 383 from 108kWh /
This Macan 100kWh has to be a significant step-up... so IMO anything less than 300-325 absolute bare-minimum real-world miles per charge, and these will tank residually.
I know the Taycan itself is being updated next year but Porsche are going to have an awful lot of used Taycan’s taking a real depreciation bath….bigger than we’ve L ready seen I would say.
I don't think EVs are just measured on range, though. If that's the case, Porsche and anyone else premium are toast. But the problem is that the rest isn't all that differentiated either. For sure Porsche EVs will be the best or some of the best to drive but as I think was mentioned a few posts ago, if this is really what you care about then why get an EV in the first place?
Based on how EVs in general depreciate I have to assume the Macan EV will depreciate a lot and I wouldn't buy a new one unless someone showered me with tax benefits. But I do get the sense that it's a better EV than a Taycan in that it's a format that suits EVs and there is more visual bulk to hide the very large battery.
Based on how EVs in general depreciate I have to assume the Macan EV will depreciate a lot and I wouldn't buy a new one unless someone showered me with tax benefits. But I do get the sense that it's a better EV than a Taycan in that it's a format that suits EVs and there is more visual bulk to hide the very large battery.
I had my name down for a Macan EV and was told delivery would likely be early 23. In that time I've seen the EV market dynamic change significantly. The fuel savings compared to ICE have pretty much evaporated, the tax savings are going the same way and the compromises on range and infrastructure are still far from being resolved although range does seem to be improving.
Taking all of that into account I feel the delay of the Macan EV has actually changed my mind about the future of EVs generally and right now I don't think they are quite the panacea people thought they were 2 or 3 years ago. I cancelled my interest earlier this year.
In a way it feels like we've gone back 100 years where different technologies were in their infancy, ICE, Steam, Electric and even at least 1 hybrid were all vying for superiority with the lowly horse continuing on plodding in the background keeping the wheels of industry turning.
Today we have ICE, Hybrids, EVs, Hydrogen and a myriad of other technologies being developed in the background that may or may not prove to be the real future and right now I have no idea which one of those to put my money on.
On that basis I think the safest bet is sticking with the current known ICE technology and sit on the sidelines to see which of the new horses is likely to win the race even though it might be a long wait
Taking all of that into account I feel the delay of the Macan EV has actually changed my mind about the future of EVs generally and right now I don't think they are quite the panacea people thought they were 2 or 3 years ago. I cancelled my interest earlier this year.
In a way it feels like we've gone back 100 years where different technologies were in their infancy, ICE, Steam, Electric and even at least 1 hybrid were all vying for superiority with the lowly horse continuing on plodding in the background keeping the wheels of industry turning.
Today we have ICE, Hybrids, EVs, Hydrogen and a myriad of other technologies being developed in the background that may or may not prove to be the real future and right now I have no idea which one of those to put my money on.
On that basis I think the safest bet is sticking with the current known ICE technology and sit on the sidelines to see which of the new horses is likely to win the race even though it might be a long wait
DMZ said:
.... For sure Porsche EVs will be the best or some of the best to drive but as I think was mentioned a few posts ago, if this is really what you care about then why get an EV in the first place?
...
If you get past noise, an EV powertrain is well suited to going (very) quickly. Torque is king, and EVs deliver....
Weight's a challenge, but the Taycan disguises that we'll IMO.
Not that any of this really applies to a Macan.
The range comments are interesting. I wonder if it's simply software that's the problem. Or hardware.
Thus far I'm not finding it an insurmountable headache. It's just a change in outlook. Home charging is key on costs and convenience. 95% of my driving is 30 mile round trips. And plugging in when I'm at home is no ball ache. Don't even have to do that if I don't want, though may miss out on cheap electric for the house if I don't.
I have my third long trip coming up this weekend. Will see how that goes now it's cold.
Voodoo Blue said:
I had my name down for a Macan EV and was told delivery would likely be early 23. In that time I've seen the EV market dynamic change significantly. The fuel savings compared to ICE have pretty much evaporated, the tax savings are going the same way and the compromises on range and infrastructure are still far from being resolved although range does seem to be improving.
Taking all of that into account I feel the delay of the Macan EV has actually changed my mind about the future of EVs generally and right now I don't think they are quite the panacea people thought they were 2 or 3 years ago. I cancelled my interest earlier this year.
In a way it feels like we've gone back 100 years where different technologies were in their infancy, ICE, Steam, Electric and even at least 1 hybrid were all vying for superiority with the lowly horse continuing on plodding in the background keeping the wheels of industry turning.
Today we have ICE, Hybrids, EVs, Hydrogen and a myriad of other technologies being developed in the background that may or may not prove to be the real future and right now I have no idea which one of those to put my money on.
On that basis I think the safest bet is sticking with the current known ICE technology and sit on the sidelines to see which of the new horses is likely to win the race even though it might be a long wait
Some interesting thoughts here. If I bought one I think I’d always have the fear with EV that it would be quickly superseded/dramatically upgraded in a way as to render the old modem undesirable and hence values would tank. Given 100 years of development to date on ICE that fear doesn’t exist. I’ve got a deposit sitting for a Macan EV, suspect I’m gonna pull it and buy an M3 touring next spring instead!Taking all of that into account I feel the delay of the Macan EV has actually changed my mind about the future of EVs generally and right now I don't think they are quite the panacea people thought they were 2 or 3 years ago. I cancelled my interest earlier this year.
In a way it feels like we've gone back 100 years where different technologies were in their infancy, ICE, Steam, Electric and even at least 1 hybrid were all vying for superiority with the lowly horse continuing on plodding in the background keeping the wheels of industry turning.
Today we have ICE, Hybrids, EVs, Hydrogen and a myriad of other technologies being developed in the background that may or may not prove to be the real future and right now I have no idea which one of those to put my money on.
On that basis I think the safest bet is sticking with the current known ICE technology and sit on the sidelines to see which of the new horses is likely to win the race even though it might be a long wait
aeropilot said:
Terry Winks said:
finmac said:
I’d say there’s not a chance it will start with a 5! Reckon the 600 BHP one will probs start with an 8 and that’s before the inevitable goodies being added (so basically a £90K car potentially)
And this is why Porsche have decided to run them alongside the current ICE lineup, so you can still have you're entry level Macan for £53k (which until inflation started with a 4) and the EV one starts with a 7. At one point it was going to be ICE out EV in then everyone would have been up in arms at the £20k price jump. Could be a potential massive own goal for UK Porsche sales if true, although probably not until about 12 months later, once the initial Macan EV company car orders have dried up, and the Macan EV sales heads into the same territory as current Taycan sales.....i.e down the toilet.
sam.rog said:
DJMC said:
Nowhere near enough lithium being mined to cater for EV production, and the replacement batteries needed in 10 years.
Electric is dead.
You better ring up all the manufacturers and let them know. I can’t believe they didn’t spot this massive error. Electric is dead.
TX.
bigbadandy76 said:
Apologies if this has already been covered, but has anybody any idea when these will actually go on sale/or be available to order? Or even look at?
Will be looking to swap my M440i GC towards end of next year and like the looks of the Macan EV as opposed to its sister Audi Q6.
OPC staff driving them end of Jan so presumably fairly soon after that. Will be looking to swap my M440i GC towards end of next year and like the looks of the Macan EV as opposed to its sister Audi Q6.
Been waiting for the Macan EV but now its almost here am in two minds.
When you buy an EV your basically buy a very expensive 'gadget' and we know how well they hold their value.
However, some gadgets offer upgrade paths, e.g. a PC can be upgraded with new CPU, RAM, GPU to limits of the Motherboard.
So will the Macan EV offer an upgrade path on batteries? Have they thought about this?
I mean its coming (https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/technology/vw-group-hails-encouraging-solid-state-battery-tests) and when it does it could kill the value of EVs even further. There might be ways to retrofit them but unless supported by manufacturer will void warranties and be potentially very dangerous.
When you buy an EV your basically buy a very expensive 'gadget' and we know how well they hold their value.
However, some gadgets offer upgrade paths, e.g. a PC can be upgraded with new CPU, RAM, GPU to limits of the Motherboard.
So will the Macan EV offer an upgrade path on batteries? Have they thought about this?
I mean its coming (https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/technology/vw-group-hails-encouraging-solid-state-battery-tests) and when it does it could kill the value of EVs even further. There might be ways to retrofit them but unless supported by manufacturer will void warranties and be potentially very dangerous.
jklondon said:
...
When you buy an EV your basically buy a very expensive 'gadget' and we know how well they hold their value.
....
Hear this a lot.When you buy an EV your basically buy a very expensive 'gadget' and we know how well they hold their value.
....
Why is it any different to buying any car??
The next version of <insert favourite ICE vehicle here> will have a better engine, better chassis, look different etc.
The mk1 Escort power train was markedly different to the last Focus. Was it a new gadget?
I expect, in the fullness of time, that under the arches places will be able to offer bigger batteries and motors, and unlock software features cheaper. Just like ICE could have power transplants etc.
They're no different. They are buying cars.
Murph7355 said:
Hear this a lot.
Why is it any different to buying any car??
The next version of <insert favourite ICE vehicle here> will have a better engine, better chassis, look different etc.
The mk1 Escort power train was markedly different to the last Focus. Was it a new gadget?
I expect, in the fullness of time, that under the arches places will be able to offer bigger batteries and motors, and unlock software features cheaper. Just like ICE could have power transplants etc.
They're no different. They are buying cars.
Because a petrol car no matter the age you can fill up with fuel in 2 minutes, and get a consistent range. With a heater on. The EVs that are on the roads just now that take long periods to charge and offer pitiful winter range will be completely redundant when they release EVs that charge in 2 minutes and have 400 mile range in winter. Also, high end EVs such as Taycans have terrible residual values as business owners (who are the majority buyer) have no interest in a £100k used vehicle when they can't get the benefits of a new car. And then we get onto the ever increasing insurance costs, as the slightest bump writes off an EV due to the battery damage/replacement cost.Why is it any different to buying any car??
The next version of <insert favourite ICE vehicle here> will have a better engine, better chassis, look different etc.
The mk1 Escort power train was markedly different to the last Focus. Was it a new gadget?
I expect, in the fullness of time, that under the arches places will be able to offer bigger batteries and motors, and unlock software features cheaper. Just like ICE could have power transplants etc.
They're no different. They are buying cars.
DMC2 said:
Because a petrol car no matter the age you can fill up with fuel in 2 minutes, and get a consistent range. With a heater on. The EVs that are on the roads just now that take long periods to charge and offer pitiful winter range will be completely redundant when they release EVs that charge in 2 minutes and have 400 mile range in winter. Also, high end EVs such as Taycans have terrible residual values as business owners (who are the majority buyer) have no interest in a £100k used vehicle when they can't get the benefits of a new car. And then we get onto the ever increasing insurance costs, as the slightest bump writes off an EV due to the battery damage/replacement cost.
- There are not going to be EVs that can charge for 400 miles in 2mins any time soon
- And that assumes that this is really needed. It's been done to death on various pages.....
Typical daily mileage is around 30 miles per day in the UK for the vast majority of people.
On the occasion you travel longer, even in a Taycan in winter you will get 180 miles (cabin at 22degC, 4 heated seats on, volume at 11 etc). At 60mph (a fast average on UK roads) that's 3hrs driving. 20mins at reasonably available fast chargers and you get another 150 miles+
The "issues" in this space, on today's roads, are more psychological than real for the very vast majority of people.
- Residual values of any 100k fast saloon/estate are not great. Things aren't helped on the EV front with the tax subsidies "funnelling" people down new only, and Porsche making a proper of horlicks of the supply/demand equation.
- The "slightest bump" is more b
ks I'm afraid. Insurance premiums are stiff, but that is not limited to EVs right now. The insurance industry is, allegedly, on its arse in terms of what it's paying out. EVs are such a small percentage of vehicles on the roads, and this problem has been rising for a while, that they are not to blame. The industry and us as customers have been our own worst enemies - supply chain issues giving parts delays, insisting on hire cars for these extended periods...shock and horror when premiums rise.
). They also do not have enough people trained on the platform.Some people really don't like EVs for whatever reason. That's fine. There are plenty of cars I don't like. I like to think mostly for rational reasons. But there are inevitably times when they'll be irrational. Just like most (not all, but most) of the anti-EV bunkum that gets spouted.
When these sort of arguments are typed it reminds me of when people used to wave their arms in the air at the Ferrari 456 beause it's bonnet cost 20k to replace. 20k! How could you even consider running a car when a simple bonnet costs 20k to replace!!! And how often does that need to happen...?
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