Discussion
Truth in both sides of the recent posts. My take:
-BEV tech is expensive so is firstly appearing in top end cars helped by company car tax benefits
-Future BEVs will make current ones look poor performers very quickly
-Expensive cars with four doors always depreciate to nothing. Given how poor current BEV tech is then Taycan et al will depreciate to not a lot very quickly (5 years time?)
-Until BEV tech improves we should really by buying them as second, local run cars where range is not too relevant but that needs them to be cheap and so far only the Chinese seem to have worked this out. The Germans are behind the curve here
-Looking at the personal angle I will not be swapping any of my main cars to BEV anytime soon. I did 1200 miles in the UK in three days last week, and drive to southern France or Italy most years. I don’t want the hassle of charging risk
-I’ve nothing against BEVs and I suspect mainly of those on here who are seen as luddites do not. I just want them to be better before I buy one to be anything other than my runaround. Maybe you guys can ‘buy’ a Taycan as a runaround but I can’t
-BEV tech is expensive so is firstly appearing in top end cars helped by company car tax benefits
-Future BEVs will make current ones look poor performers very quickly
-Expensive cars with four doors always depreciate to nothing. Given how poor current BEV tech is then Taycan et al will depreciate to not a lot very quickly (5 years time?)
-Until BEV tech improves we should really by buying them as second, local run cars where range is not too relevant but that needs them to be cheap and so far only the Chinese seem to have worked this out. The Germans are behind the curve here
-Looking at the personal angle I will not be swapping any of my main cars to BEV anytime soon. I did 1200 miles in the UK in three days last week, and drive to southern France or Italy most years. I don’t want the hassle of charging risk
-I’ve nothing against BEVs and I suspect mainly of those on here who are seen as luddites do not. I just want them to be better before I buy one to be anything other than my runaround. Maybe you guys can ‘buy’ a Taycan as a runaround but I can’t
Edited by EC2 on Thursday 11th January 12:17
DMC2 said:
The EVs that are on the roads just now that take long periods to charge and offer pitiful winter range will be completely redundant when they release EVs that charge in 2 minutes and have 400 mile range in winter.
As Murph says this, at least the charging aspect of this argument, will not be happening any time soon.You can't charge a mobile phone in 2 minutes and there's no prospect of being able to do so. To expect it to happen for a car with a battery many times the size is therefore sci-fi at present.
EV tech is expensive and EVs are suffering at the minute due to many different market forces, rather than the tech that they employ.
Agreeing with some of the stuff said above.
My recent experience has covered the range from a Taycan all the way down to very old BEVs.
(1) Looked a a Mercedes B250e. If I could pick one up dirt cheap then I could use it as my daily run around. I work from home and don't really car if its slow charging since I could leave it plugged in all the time when at home. Unfortunately they are bottoming out at about £12k and a real world range of 50 miles in winter. As useful as a chocolate teapot.
(2) Looked at a Taycan. Too wide and too expensive to be used on the roads around me as a daily run around and if I revisit one in a couple of years time then it might have a close resemblance to the current negatives I have for the Mercedes B250e.
So at the moment I'm keeping my powder dry. I like the shape of the Macan and I know my next vehicle will be a small BEV SUV but which one - I dont know all depends on real world usage (reliability / price / range). If something similar becomes silly cheap then I will probably plump for that.
My recent experience has covered the range from a Taycan all the way down to very old BEVs.
(1) Looked a a Mercedes B250e. If I could pick one up dirt cheap then I could use it as my daily run around. I work from home and don't really car if its slow charging since I could leave it plugged in all the time when at home. Unfortunately they are bottoming out at about £12k and a real world range of 50 miles in winter. As useful as a chocolate teapot.
(2) Looked at a Taycan. Too wide and too expensive to be used on the roads around me as a daily run around and if I revisit one in a couple of years time then it might have a close resemblance to the current negatives I have for the Mercedes B250e.
So at the moment I'm keeping my powder dry. I like the shape of the Macan and I know my next vehicle will be a small BEV SUV but which one - I dont know all depends on real world usage (reliability / price / range). If something similar becomes silly cheap then I will probably plump for that.
DMC2 said:
Also, high end EVs such as Taycans have terrible residual values....
I'm just not seeing this. The 4S was launched at £83k in the UK. The cheapest advertised in the UK are now 4 years old and over £50k. That's 60% retained value at 4 years old and 40,000+ miles.I think there's a mindset with some people that these cars should still be at 80% of the new inflated list price, and hence close to 100% of their actual purchase price 4 years ago. The parts-supply issue is over. We're now just returning to how the market has always depreciated large expensive cars.
In my opinion they're still heavily over priced. A 4 year old large saloon car, that cost £83k, with a reputation for reliability issues, on an entirely new 1st-gen platform, using cutting-edge technology that is already out-of-date, is probably worth no more than £35k.
alock said:
... on an entirely new 1st-gen platform, using cutting-edge technology that is already out-of-date, is probably worth no more than £35k.
Out of interest, how is the technology out of date?800V architecture is not exactly everywhere yet, though increasingly it is.
Battery tech is par with nothing much different on the immediate horizon.
The Porsche isn't especially efficient and probably a third down on Korean competitors at least... But then efficiency isn't Porsche's USP whether ICE or BEV. (I do think their software department is lacking in all areas mind).
EC2 said:
....
-Until BEV tech improves we should really by buying them as second, local run cars where range is not too relevant but that needs them to be cheap and so far only the Chinese seem to have worked this out. The Germans are behind the curve here
-Looking at the personal angle I will not be swapping any of my main cars to BEV anytime soon. I did 1200 miles in the UK in three days last week, and drive to southern France or Italy most years. I don’t want the hassle of charging risk
-I’ve nothing against BEVs and I suspect mainly of those on here who are seen as luddites do not. I just want them to be better before I buy one to be anything other than my runaround. Maybe you guys can ‘buy’ a Taycan as a runaround but I can’t
Nobody needs 5 cars and if you afford to have 4 as s-Until BEV tech improves we should really by buying them as second, local run cars where range is not too relevant but that needs them to be cheap and so far only the Chinese seem to have worked this out. The Germans are behind the curve here
-Looking at the personal angle I will not be swapping any of my main cars to BEV anytime soon. I did 1200 miles in the UK in three days last week, and drive to southern France or Italy most years. I don’t want the hassle of charging risk
-I’ve nothing against BEVs and I suspect mainly of those on here who are seen as luddites do not. I just want them to be better before I buy one to be anything other than my runaround. Maybe you guys can ‘buy’ a Taycan as a runaround but I can’t
ts and giggles plus a runabout 
I've done 5k miles in 4mths in mine, including some 800ml weekenders. Charging risk in this country is very minor. Probably no less of an irritant than having to fuel a Maser V8
(As glorious to look at as they are, and as epic as they sound, it was probably the most flawed car I've owned). Haven't driven the car in France or Italy just yet.
As for wanting things to be better... I get that. But it applies to everything. New shiny is always just around the corner. A good mate of mine was always saying "I'd buy one of those if they were x% cheaper"... Well quite. Wouldn't everyone. There's always a reason not to do something.
So what does an EV need to do to be better? Drive unrefuelled for longer than I will ever drive without needing to re/defuel myself?
They're cars. For me, they need to look, drive and feel fantastically. I used to include sound great in that list, but it's no longer a pre-requisite as I get older and being anti-social becomes more frowned upon. So that's my list.
Every car I've owned has been flawed. Have loved them though.
jklondon said:
Nice EV debate.
Question - spoke a few OPCs, most taking note of interest only one taking £3K refundable holding. The ones not taking that said OPCs should be doing that. Does it make any difference to allocations in the end?
I’d expect it will. Question - spoke a few OPCs, most taking note of interest only one taking £3K refundable holding. The ones not taking that said OPCs should be doing that. Does it make any difference to allocations in the end?
I called one a year ago and they wouldn’t take a deposit and instead put me on a list. He said there were 180 people on it but it was likely that a huge chunk of them would evaporate when time came to pay a deposit. I’ve never heard from them again.
I then called a second at the same time last year who were happy to take a £3k deposit and were quite engaged with it all. Good experience. They have been in touch a few times since and today they got in touch again to say it won’t be long before I can come in and spec my car. Launch likely this month…deliveries end of Q3/ start of Q4.
Murph7355 said:
EC2 said:
....
-Until BEV tech improves we should really by buying them as second, local run cars where range is not too relevant but that needs them to be cheap and so far only the Chinese seem to have worked this out. The Germans are behind the curve here
-Looking at the personal angle I will not be swapping any of my main cars to BEV anytime soon. I did 1200 miles in the UK in three days last week, and drive to southern France or Italy most years. I don’t want the hassle of charging risk
-I’ve nothing against BEVs and I suspect mainly of those on here who are seen as luddites do not. I just want them to be better before I buy one to be anything other than my runaround. Maybe you guys can ‘buy’ a Taycan as a runaround but I can’t
Nobody needs 5 cars and if you afford to have 4 as s-Until BEV tech improves we should really by buying them as second, local run cars where range is not too relevant but that needs them to be cheap and so far only the Chinese seem to have worked this out. The Germans are behind the curve here
-Looking at the personal angle I will not be swapping any of my main cars to BEV anytime soon. I did 1200 miles in the UK in three days last week, and drive to southern France or Italy most years. I don’t want the hassle of charging risk
-I’ve nothing against BEVs and I suspect mainly of those on here who are seen as luddites do not. I just want them to be better before I buy one to be anything other than my runaround. Maybe you guys can ‘buy’ a Taycan as a runaround but I can’t
ts and giggles plus a runabout I've done 5k miles in 4mths in mine, including some 800ml weekenders. Charging risk in this country is very minor. Probably no less of an irritant than having to fuel a Maser V8
(As glorious to look at as they are, and as epic as they sound, it was probably the most flawed car I've owned). Haven't driven the car in France or Italy just yet.
As for wanting things to be better... I get that. But it applies to everything. New shiny is always just around the corner. A good mate of mine was always saying "I'd buy one of those if they were x% cheaper"... Well quite. Wouldn't everyone. There's always a reason not to do something.
So what does an EV need to do to be better? Drive unrefuelled for longer than I will ever drive without needing to re/defuel myself?
They're cars. For me, they need to look, drive and feel fantastically. I used to include sound great in that list, but it's no longer a pre-requisite as I get older and being anti-social becomes more frowned upon. So that's my list.
Every car I've owned has been flawed. Have loved them though.
GT3ZZZ said:
Main issue for me is how much range it has when towing. Wife regularly does a 150 mile round trip with a horse trailer and recharging en-route isn't an option with a trailer on the back. Anecdotes suggest range when towing might only be 50% of quoted on a cold day for other EV's...
Towing is a definite iffy use case for EVs without substantial battery.EC2 said:
Agree about the quantum of cars. Most of us have more than we need. I guess we will all jump on the BEV transition at different stages. I don’t fear it or object to it I just see better tech in a few years time and don’t need to change yet. Taycan is a beautiful looking car but I want a better range from my four door cars. The Maser goes a surprising distance on a tank and went home last year for a visit.
Most of us will have to in due course. Unless governments backtrack and allow ICE or get supportive of alternatives like fuel cell (don't see that happening).My issue was a mate looking at EVs. We tested a Kia EV6 GT that he was looking at, and the Porsche dealer was right next door. I'd paid little attention to EVs to that point.
The EV6 was decent enough. But the Taycan was brilliant.
As noted, the distance thing isn't a factor for me any more. The days when I would be covering 300 miles plus in one go are well behind me (and it's not something I used to do frequently anyway). So a car being able to do that isn't especially relevant for me. I used to appreciate having a decent sized fuel tank, ironically, so I didn't have to visit petrol stations that often! With the EV I don't have to that often as the car gets charged at home/destination
Murph7355 said:
Some people really don't like EVs for whatever reason. That's fine. There are plenty of cars I don't like. I like to think mostly for rational reasons. But there are inevitably times when they'll be irrational. Just like most (not all, but most) of the anti-EV bunkum that gets spouted.
I like the idea of them for a family car, and with test drives returning 325 miles on the new Macan EV that sounds like it would be good enough for me. Certainly get me into the 3 places I travel regularly and back home again on a single charge, even in winter, which is around 270 mile round trip.
However, and this is a big problem for so many of us, I don't have the ability to charge at home, and if you haven't got that they make no sense at all, practicality wise or financially.
Ed.Neumann said:
I like the idea of them for a family car, and with test drives returning 325 miles on the new Macan EV that sounds like it would be good enough for me.
Certainly get me into the 3 places I travel regularly and back home again on a single charge, even in winter, which is around 270 mile round trip.
However, and this is a big problem for so many of us, I don't have the ability to charge at home, and if you haven't got that they make no sense at all, practicality wise or financially.
Agree with the latter point.Certainly get me into the 3 places I travel regularly and back home again on a single charge, even in winter, which is around 270 mile round trip.
However, and this is a big problem for so many of us, I don't have the ability to charge at home, and if you haven't got that they make no sense at all, practicality wise or financially.
I didn't have a home charger for the first month of owning the car. We have a really nice Gridserve around 10mls away. Could get up to 85% charged in 20mins...but I wouldn't have wanted to do that forever.
I stayed with a friend in London and there were public charge points on the street which worked nicely. The infrastructure is getting better, but not having decent charging at home and/or destination is far from ideal.
Murph7355 said:
alock said:
... on an entirely new 1st-gen platform, using cutting-edge technology that is already out-of-date, is probably worth no more than £35k.
Out of interest, how is the technology out of date?800V architecture is not exactly everywhere yet, though increasingly it is.
Battery tech is par with nothing much different on the immediate horizon.
The Porsche isn't especially efficient and probably a third down on Korean competitors at least... But then efficiency isn't Porsche's USP whether ICE or BEV. (I do think their software department is lacking in all areas mind).
PGNSagaris said:
I’d expect it will.
I called one a year ago and they wouldn’t take a deposit and instead put me on a list. He said there were 180 people on it but it was likely that a huge chunk of them would evaporate when time came to pay a deposit. I’ve never heard from them again.
I then called a second at the same time last year who were happy to take a £3k deposit and were quite engaged with it all. Good experience. They have been in touch a few times since and today they got in touch again to say it won’t be long before I can come in and spec my car. Launch likely this month…deliveries end of Q3/ start of Q4.
Thanks - makes sense.I called one a year ago and they wouldn’t take a deposit and instead put me on a list. He said there were 180 people on it but it was likely that a huge chunk of them would evaporate when time came to pay a deposit. I’ve never heard from them again.
I then called a second at the same time last year who were happy to take a £3k deposit and were quite engaged with it all. Good experience. They have been in touch a few times since and today they got in touch again to say it won’t be long before I can come in and spec my car. Launch likely this month…deliveries end of Q3/ start of Q4.
alock said:
When I wrote that I was referring to the efficiency. If they aren't the most inefficient EV on sale, they must be fairly close.
They are not the most inefficient EV on sale - and by some margin. https://ev-database.org/uk/compare/efficiency-elec...
ath~type~order=.efficiency~number~asc|range-slider-rangerev~next=0~600|range-slider-towweightrev~next=0~2500|range-slider-accelerationrev~next=2~23|range-slider-fastchargerev~next=0~1100|range-slider-effrev~next=150~500|range-slider-topspeedrev~next=60~260|paging:currentPage=0|paging:number=9But they are not great. But nor are their petrol cars. If you want efficiency buy a 1 litre turbo hatchback rather than a 911, or a Tesla rather than a 500 bhp+ Taycan.
Mark-ri571 said:
First video of range capability
https://youtu.be/ab1AIGLpd_0?si=w1lyDHWRqzRWTXix
Warning, American showing you his chewed gum up close for the first ten seconds.. Lost me at that point.https://youtu.be/ab1AIGLpd_0?si=w1lyDHWRqzRWTXix
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